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92 240 wagon intermittent no start. Starts right up with a jump. 200 1992

Need suggestions please!!
My 92 wagon will unexpectedly not start, then with a jump springs right to life. New starter and MAss air flow sensor, new fuel pump, filter and relay...

While it actually is driving, it will be fine for days, then suddenly starts to slowly lose power and putters out. Starts right back up with a jump and drives.

Alternator has tested fine.
Will be installing a new hose from charcoal canister to throttle body tomorrow. What exactly is that hose? Two blue stripes.. it had been touching a belt and melted a bit.

Always appreciate everyone here!
Many thanks!
--
'92 245 74k, '84 245 80k, 79 245 162k rust in peace





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    92 240 wagon intermittent no start. Starts right up with a jump. 200 1992

    Belts are snug, ground cables are visually good. Crank position sensor looks good at least. No fraying on any cables I can see.

    It’s dead again. Jumpstarting now to try more stuff.
    At the garage the battery was checked for parasitic draw of which there didn’t appear to be any.
    --
    '92 245 74k, ‘07 XC70, '84 245 80k, 79 245 162k (rust in peace)





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      92 240 wagon intermittent no start. Starts right up with a jump. 200 1992

      The (loud) hornet buzz is loudest in the back seat. Definitely not interior. Fuel pump and filter are new. Could the pump make this sound? Related to my electrical issues?? Battery connection is tight.

      EDIT: it is almost certainly fuel pump...I lifted the back seat bench and could feel a vibration and the sound was loudest.
      --
      '92 245 74k, ‘07 XC70, '84 245 80k, 79 245 162k (rust in peace)





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    92 240 wagon intermittent no start. Starts right up with a jump. 200 1992

    Am very suspicious of "alternator tested fine".Any car this age requires a
    permanent in dash voltmeter,its always my first "mod",so you can see whats happening live at all times.Alternators can "test fine" and have all sorts of issues. Car can run fine but still not have enough power for restart next morning.Plus battery has been drained a few times so it has permanently lost lots of capacity.That being said as others mentioned parasitic drains should be eliminated, connections checked, cleaned.Stock 240 has very little parasitic drain,See BMW forums(my case E53&E46) for real parasitic drain issues.
    P.S. is alt belt snug enough?
    GOOD LUCK
    --
    Rene





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      Alternator Tests Fine? 200 1992

      "Any car this age requires a permanent in dash voltmeter..."

      Amen!


      --
      Art Benstein near Baltimore

      How I Installed a Voltmeter -- and why





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    92 240 wagon intermittent no start. Starts right up with a jump. 200 1992

    it delivers unburnt gas stored into charcoal canister to be burnt in engine,,Maybe your CPSensor is bad unshielded??





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    92 240 wagon intermittent no start. Starts right up with a jump. 200 1992

    Posting to add:

    Heated seat fuse was blown- replaced
    (Heated seats never worked)
    --
    '92 245 74k, '84 245 80k, 79 245 162k rust in peace





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    92 240 wagon intermittent no start. Starts right up with a jump. 200 1992

    If there are small wires on your positive connection to the battery - give them a good tug - for that matter, give all the wires in the primary wiring system a tug - All the wires that are big, or go to the starter should be pulled upon. Pull them so that they do not short out if they come apart.

    You cannot pull a good wire or its connection apart. Do you have any generic crimp connections under the hood? Any taped connections - I had a taped connection in my '54 Chevy that had no connectors, just twisted wires.

    I have had two wires in Volvos corrode down to one strand - One off the positive battery connection, and one to a headlight.

    Look up auto primary wiring voltage drop testing or some such.





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    92 240 wagon - blue striped vapor line for EVAP emission control 200 1992

    Hi Seed,

    The dual striped line is Volvo OEM for vapor (vacuum) line in different diameters. Vapor being caustic to non vapor vacuum line. The blue striped line is made more resilient to caustic petroleum vapors.

    The line you describe connects between the larger port on the dual vapor valve (Dunno hhhhwut to call it) atop the EVAP charcoal canister and routed from there to a port on the throttle body. The larger line is for when the throttle is open (engine not at idle) to draw fuel tank vapor using engine air intake vacuum. Though the fuel tank builds pressure about any time. More so when it is warmer and when the gasoline volume moves around as your drive your 1991 Volvo 240.

    There exists a second, smaller diameter, vacuum line that connects to that same valve atop the EVAP canister that connects to a smaller diameter throttle body port that (I guess) draws vapor from the EVAP canister and into the engine air intake.

    The EVAP system is something similar to how engine oil sump vapors are drawn through the PCV system, yet PCV routes more vapor volume using engine air intake vacuum. Though like EVAP, when the engine is on, oil sump vapors push outward with the PCV and engine air intake vacuum to guide the oil sump vapor to escape through the PCV and consumed by the engine.

    The valve atop the EVAP canister can get a little stuck. It is sort of a tough valve. I used some brake parts cleaner to ensure vapor would pass through the small and large vacuum line ports at idle and engine run (not at idle).

    Hope that helps. Thank you for the writer warm-up. Though nothing to write today.

    Enjoy the images and you and Phil Machine Man and everyone enjoy a wonderful happy Friday and an even better weekend!


    EVAP Canister. Had to remove to replace the 30+ year old factory installed plastic zip tie straps.
    https://dzywoxlnnkpjm.cloudfront.net/12242.jpg



    EVAP Canister. Another view.
    https://dzywoxlnnkpjm.cloudfront.net/12241.jpg



    Dual blue striped vapor line (or hose) section between PCV Oil separator breather box and the flame arrestor (trap) housing. This vacuum line as they all do becomes brittle. Other auto line or hose makers also make vapor line for PCV and EVAP yet myay not be as durable as what Volvo sells by the foot or centimeter.

    https://dzywoxlnnkpjm.cloudfront.net/12610.jpg



    Now it's utter regrets leaving WA-state every single moment since OCT2015. Harassed there or here? Rather there.
    https://dzywoxlnnkpjm.cloudfront.net/12245.jpg


    MO-state is awful. And here come the malodorous summertime. Cold temps here tamps down the odor. Driving through the St. Louis 'burbs, you can smell the many dog owners and their yards needing a cleanup. Awful. For about seven months or so.

    Hope that halps.

    Buttermilk Boy likes Buttermilk. Dairygold brand in WA is way better than Prairie Farms brand here.
    --
    Donate NOW! Give your brickboard.com a big DONATION!!! Find the on brickboard pages!





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      92 240 wagon - blue striped vapor line for EVAP emission control 200 1992

      Kittysgrey,

      This is all very helpful, thank you! I’m better informed now when I replace the hose. Still haven’t done it, life got in the way. I’m thinking Tuesday then I’m sure I’ll be back with more questions. :-)

      --
      '92 245 74k, '84 245 80k, 79 245 162k rust in peace





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    92 240 wagon intermittent no start. Starts right up with a jump. 200 1992

    Hi again,
    Let’s see if we can find some loose strings hanging out someplace!

    Ok, so you did change over to a newer battery.
    That explains why my first thoughts were too easy!
    It’s Ok, you had painted it covered, in your mind.
    Now we have to add some more colors to the mixture!

    Ok, let’s say we rule out the battery and it stays good for the whole time until the Mystery get unveiled. It’s then it starts to run poorly.
    Symptoms are it slowly loses power ... until it completely “putters” out.

    You then say, after a total shut down it starts right back up, but only, when there is another battery used to bring it back to life!
    We know that it’s leading to something happening with a steady higher rate of current, going into the various systems.

    Have you cleaned and oiled all the fuses in the door hinge panel.
    Check the fuses for cracked tips and green stuff around the small holes of the metal-clip fingers.
    Those little green Gremlins do hide there!
    I recommend servicing them every couple years, if your shoes and mats get wet from rain and especially, if snow plops there regularly.

    So, it starts fine during all the other times.
    Jeez, that’s not nice to label this as a pure Intermittent! This will definitely antagonize one’s mind!

    I gather there are No “slow cranking moments” at anytime prior too or before the power starts dropping off to a putter?
    I also mean, it just doesn’t shut down or turn off like a switch does it!

    How old is the Crankshaft Position Sensor?
    It would affect the power issue, if the signal gets weak and then produces a random cylinder misfire for a 25% loss in power.
    Does it always fail only on a nicely warmed up to temperature engine?
    That item is located where it gets hot back behind the head.
    Look to see if the cable from it is frayed or dried out looking with several cracks.

    Does it ever fail to start and it then runs the battery low enough to require the jump?
    What do you think is the reason for doing the jumping it thing, in your mind?
    Do you carry the other used battery around with you, for the jump?
    I think, it would be very inconvenient to look for a donee car or be calling and waiting for AAA each time!

    I will assume that rain is not a factor, but you haven’t said if there are any certain environmental conditions each time?
    Have you noticed any pattern like that to warrant mentioning here?
    A weak ignition system is usually a good place or the first item to keep squared away, in trouble shooting most symptoms.
    Any idea how long it’s has been?

    Is the fuel in the tank always at the same level or is it reading low each time with the event?
    There is a symptomatic pattern of a bad in-tank fuel pump.
    It may faltering each time the tank is near empty or below a half tank and you go up a hill.
    A dirty sock screen or broken rubber connecting hose are possible.

    Only trouble is, it doesn’t explain why the battery jump helps to correct that or the instant restart until the battery is added unless it’s a corroded ground near the tank or to the main pump.

    Try to listen and notice any tiny things to tell us.
    It all helps to picture the car we are thinking about.

    Phil





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      92 240 wagon intermittent no start. Starts right up with a jump. 200 1992

      Phil- you are a true thinker and I thank you for that!
      I’ll try to answer some of your questions.

      Actually the car does not start fine all other times. It intermittently won’t start in the morning after running fine the day before. Jump brings it back to life immediately.. when it doesn’t start there is little to no crank, then less, then none. 1,2,3.

      I do check the fuses quite often. Haven’t seen any gremlins ( though I’ve had wagons that have been possessed by them)

      Environmental doesn’t seem to be a factor, rain or shine. Nor does fuel level.

      I haven’t checked the crank position sensor myself. I asked a mechanic to check it when he replaced the down pipe but I have a suspicion he didn’t and just said it was fine. NOT a Volvo guy by the way.

      The worst thing is, I never know if I’ve finally solved the problem until the car strands me somewhere (again)



      --
      '92 245 74k, '84 245 80k, 79 245 162k rust in peace





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        92 240 wagon intermittent no start. Starts right up with a jump. 200 1992

        Hi Seed,

        I copied what you said so, “We and the Board,” could stare at it directly!

        “Actually the car does not start fine all other times. It intermittently won’t start in the morning after running fine the day before. Jump brings it back to life immediately.. when it doesn’t start there is little to no crank, then less, then none. 1,2,3.”

        This reads out to me as if it’s classic drain down of the battery overnight!

        The quickest and easiest way to check for that drain is to disconnect the negative terminal from the battery to leave the battery out of the ball game during the night.

        The next thing is to make sure everything thing is turn off in the car.
        Then you want put a small automotive light bulb in between the negative cable and the negative post to see if it will light up continuously.

        A turn signal bulb is about as large you should use but anything smaller will only glow brighter with the least amount of drainage.
        If it does light up, then you need to find out what, is on all the time!
        You can get a weak blip from a time clock or intermittent charge up draw of a computers capacitors, of which will quickly settle down to zero.

        You will need a Volt Ohm Meter set to the amperage mode and hooked up in series with the load just like the light bulb, to find out how much, in total, is the problem.
        0.020 to 0.050 Of an amp or milliamperes is about all that is allowed in an amperage draw load with everything off.
        This means glove box lights, trunk lights or even a shorted or stuck closed courtesy light relay. Your car probably has electric windows and they use relays. Some get pretty warm under normal operation. Who knows maybe the rear window defrost is on all the time?
        The magnetic coils can short out to ground in “rare” instances.
        If you do have a light glowing, try removing fuses, one at a time, until the light goes out, Then note the circuit it came from.

        In order for it to go down overnight, it will have to be quite a bit more than the numbers above, or the battery itself is really really funky!
        The battery could have the shortened life span, if it does not get a good healthy charge.
        It cannot get a full charge from an alternator, if the car never gets to do any long errands or trips.
        How long are your trips, each time or the miles between the jumps?
        A bench charge and loading test is the only way to truly rule out the battery as being good or bad or needing a longer charge.

        The overnight fault is a big clue, electrically and it has a finite answer, lurking about!
        You need to do the little test or get a routine going of disconnecting it, to solve what seems to be a failure and it being a “ran down” failure to crank issue.

        As far as the Crank Position Sensor, there is not a true test for it.
        It’s one of two R&R and cross your fingers devices. The other is the AMM.
        The problems with them, is they can cause, a little more “irrational” set of symptoms with the engine actually running correctly.
        If it’s failing, it might start out with you not getting some good ole’ ignition sparky in the game, because of no signal.
        In that the case, nothing does anything, no matter the number of batteries you jump from.

        At least it doesn’t seem logical, but cars don’t think and they leave it up to us, the creators!
        The avocado pit is too big too!
        That is, According to George Burns, in the movie Oh, God! with John Denver.

        Phil





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          92 240 wagon intermittent no start. Starts right up with a jump. 200 1992

          This AM she stranded me again. It’s raining so that may have affected it. It started fine then 100 yds down the road power was lost. Now it starts up but won’t stay running more than a second or two. Also, gas gauge has been acting funny (visible swings) and there is like a moaning sound coming from (a relay?) in the glove box when it starts and dies today.

          --
          '92 245 74k, ‘07 XC70, '84 245 80k, 79 245 162k (rust in peace)





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            92 240 wagon intermittent no start. Starts right up with a jump. 200 1992

            Hi again,

            I just finished working on your other post before I noticed the other thread had moved.

            Now you have written-in a good mystery. The sound of moaning is a NEW one! (:-)

            The gas gauge swinging is a symptom that is unusual too! That should not cause a running issue but it may be pointing to a power problem starting from the fuse panel in the drivers door hinge.
            There could be loose fuses in the clips or a corrosion build up among key ones!

            I brought up the idea that the car needs some maintenance and that area would be a great place to start.
            A first place to start, when troubleshooting anything that uses electrical power, is to start with it its power supply.
            This being from the battery on outwards. The fuse panel distributes to many places and that in-turn contol lots of functions. Guess what, this will cause intermittent gremlins everywhere!

            The moaning, I don't know about, unless the car is mimicking you android your frustrations!
            Work on that fuse panel, as a start and look over the other thread carefully to get back to us!

            Phil





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              92 240 wagon intermittent no start. Starts right up with a jump. 200 1992

              I’m at the car now... the moaning is more of a loud, low buzzing coming from passengers side, audible as the car dies right after starting it
              --
              '92 245 74k, ‘07 XC70, '84 245 80k, 79 245 162k (rust in peace)





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                92 240 wagon intermittent no start. Starts right up with a jump. 200 1992

                With the gas gauge being unsteady and a (possible) relay buzzing, it suggests a possibility of low voltage. (The weak magnetic field from low voltage would cause the contacts to open-close instead of locking in.) Ie. It still may be a bad battery connection.

                The thick red cable going from the alt to the starter travels under the engine and sometimes rubs away causing a fire hazard.

                Check that the ground from the battery to the engine block is solid (end connector) as well as the ground cable from the valve cover to the firewall is good. Injectors rely on a proper ground. Use a booster cable from the -ve battery terminal to the block and try starting car to see if ground is missing.

                OBD codes?
                --
                1980 245 Canadian B21A with SU carb, M46 trans, 3:31 dif, in Brampton, Ont.





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                92 240 wagon intermittent no start. Starts right up with a jump. 200 1992

                UpDATE

                I just replaced the hose from the charcoal canister that had worn away against the belt, and fixed a loose connection at the MAss air flow sensor.. it started and seems to be running a bit better , but there is a loud hornet type of buzz ever-present. Haven’t heard this before..
                --
                '92 245 74k, ‘07 XC70, '84 245 80k, 79 245 162k (rust in peace)





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                  92 240 wagon intermittent no start. Starts right up with a jump. 200 1992

                  Hi,

                  You may have loosened that aluminum hose going from the air filter to the exhaust manifold.
                  It goes under the radiator and bends into a 90 degree angle at the frame.
                  There is supposed to be a clamp hold it tight around there.

                  Stretching the hose can cause slack between it and the air filter housing so it creates a buzz.
                  Just rearrange it or zip tie it under there.

                  That the only thing that I think could buzz or even moan under the hood.
                  Now a thumping clanking noise is a real eyebrow raising noise.
                  That's when the alternator's bracket becomes too loose!
                  That's when it pays to have a voltmeter mounted in the dash too!

                  Phil





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              92 240 wagon intermittent no start. Starts right up with a jump. 200 1992

              The panel is the first place I went this AM. It’s clean. All fuses in tact. The heated seat fuse was blown the other day, but has been replaced.

              The “moaning” was a suitable, however milder imitation of my frustration.
              --
              '92 245 74k, ‘07 XC70, '84 245 80k, 79 245 162k (rust in peace)





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    92 240 wagon intermittent no start. Starts right up with a jump. 200 1992

    Hi,

    My first thought is it’s a bad battery and most likely a bad cell in it!

    The extra thump from an outside power source can rattle the sulphate between the plates.

    The next thing to look into are bad battery cables or their connections with the copper strands.
    All of these could explain a drop in system voltage that can make things go wonky!

    Phil





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      92 240 wagon intermittent no start. Starts right up with a jump. 200 1992

      Actually I should have mentioned, we thought of the bad battery thing. I just replaced a six month old battery, and the problem still occurs. The cables are in good condition.
      --
      '92 245 74k, '84 245 80k, 79 245 162k rust in peace





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        92 240 wagon intermittent no start. Starts right up with a jump. 200 1992

        Check for proper connection to the battery posts. Corrosion may be interfering with charging? The problem may be similar to trying to boost with poor booster cables (thin, high gauge) vs. good ones (thick, low gauge).

        --
        1980 245 Canadian B21A with SU carb, M46 trans, 3:31 dif, in Brampton, Ont.





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          92 240 wagon intermittent no start. Starts right up with a jump. 200 1992

          Thanks. Cables/connections look good. No corrosion.
          --
          '92 245 74k, '84 245 80k, 79 245 162k rust in peace





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