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All,
So here I am, away from home, and my 1990 240 dies on the way to get gas while I'm exiting I95 in southern Virginia. Ugh!
I've trouble shot the in-tank and main pumps. Both run independently and together. Car cranks, and did start and run twice, but then finally died and now will not re-start.
I check my driver side fender 25A fuse and it is fine.
I had checked for spark on #1 cylinder, and it was there, but now I get nothing.
I also tried to run the diagnostic test for the injectors, but I can not get it to enter that mode to test. I perform the operation correctly, but it will not enter it.
I'm leaning at the moment towards the following culprits.
- Coil,
- Coil wire to distributor,
- EZK, and/or
- ECU
What I'd like to know is what do you folks think?
Any and all thoughts are welcome and appreciated.
Thanks,
Matt
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1989 - 245, 1990 - 245, 1991 - 245, and 1993 - 245
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Merry Christmas everyone!
Here you all go. Here is what my underside of my failed rotor looked like.
Enjoy!
Matt
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1989 - 245, 1990 - 245, 1991 - 245, and 1993 - 245
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Here's what it should have looked like.
My guess, if this had been someone I know, is the red lead to the fender blade fuse was the reason for the breakdown, but the other issues resulted from the troubleshooting process. The rotor, regardless of maker, would have to have included the key, as seen below, or it would have been lottery luck it ever worked in the first place. So I figure, a look by one of the mechanics at the distributor cap, resulted in the cap or rotor being re-installed but not seated properly. If the cap was cocked at an angle, the rotor jammed and its key sheared. New problem.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
Merry Christmas!
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The key...yes, it certainly would have to be present.
The, "spins freely," thing reminded me that those Bosch rotors fit pretty tight on the distributor shaft.
Long ago I had a friend who owned a BMW Bavaria and I determined it needed a new rotor. I had one for an air cooled VW and it was exactly the same, except for the markings probably.
Worked just fine.
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'80 DL 2 door, '89 DL Wagon, '15 XC70 T6
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That does not seem to be a Bosch rotor. Would that be a correct assumption?
The, "spins freely," remark made me think it was either a poorly made aftermarket part or maybe the wrong part altogether.
Just wondering.
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'80 DL 2 door, '89 DL Wagon, '15 XC70 T6
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BulletProof,
That would be correct.
As I stated in my post, the distributor and rotor were not replaced by me, which I thought I had done, thus the failure. Still having nightmares.
Matt
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So here it goes.
First off, thank you Art for your detailed step by step diagnosis of the ignition system. I already knew some of this, but not all of it, and will keep this for future use when trouble shooting issues like this. I wish I had had this Tuesday morning, but I did not.
So to recap…
On the way to pick up my son at NCState, my very nice, 1990 240 DL took a crap and left my lovely young bride and I stranded about an hour and a half from our destination in a very rural part of southern Virginia. Que the Banjos!
I attempted to diagnose my car with the help of two friends over the phone while in the parking lot of the American Inn motel, which if you are curious is right off of I-95 south bound at exit 4 in Virginia. By 10 or so that night we called it a night and booked a room for the evening. In the morning I posted this post. The owner’s mechanic friend and I diagnosed what we believed was a bad coil as we were getting no spark when I cranked. With this information my wife and I picked up the rental car, headed south, picked up our son, and headed home.
Once home, I proceeded to pull all the necessary tools, and spare parts together for the next day’s adventure back to the car, and from there, home.
My good friend Mark and I left home around 5:30 and arrived at our destination at around 8:30 and we promptly set off to work to getting this guy home.
Since I knew that my OBD was not working, the first thing I checked was the voltage to the AMM. I got a big fat ZERO on my DVM. Ah hah, I said, I know what the problem is. Problem number one has been found. So carefully, Mark and I played with the fuse holder moving it from its home and putting it into a better location. Once this was done I checked the voltage again and now I got 12 VDC! Awesome I thought, let me try to start it. I tried, and it fired right up and idled very smoothly. Cool we both thought, we’ll be home before the DC traffic gets too bad. So we packed up the tools and headed out of the parking lot and off to put gas in my other car as the Volvo was still full from the other night. To do this we had to head across I-95 to gas station. All was well and we filled up and relieved ourselves before the long journey home.
The plan was I would drive the 240 in front of Mark who would take up the rear just in case there was an issue. Well we didn’t get very far before an issue arose. As I pulled out of the gas station to head home, the car that was running well started acting like it did the night before. I had no choice but to go back across the bridge to the motel from where we just were.
I parked the car and raised the hood. At this point we just started throwing parts at it. We replaced the following parts in this order; coil, EZK, and ECU. To no avail, nothing worked. It was at this point that Mark spoke up and said, hey, come and look at this. He was referring to the cable that ran from the coil to the distributor. What he was referring to was an area of the wire that had some very apparent arcing taking place. Yikes! Problem number two was found and we promptly replaced said wire with a good one from one of my other running 240’s. Again I started the car, again it idled nicely. Cars are once again packed and now we say to ourselves, let’s get the hell home.
We take up the same positions to head back across the bridge, but as I give it gas, the car once again goes into this awful fit coughing and sputtering and then once again dies. We push it back to where it just came from and I in disgust throw open the hood.
I look at Mark, and he at me, and I say, well, let’s look at the distributor as it’s the only piece of this puzzle that I haven’t touched yet. So to digress for a moment, a friend Sunday night asked me if I had looked at this, and I said no, that I had replaced it when I bought the car in May 2017, and that it should be fine, and that I can most likely get it off, but getting it clipped on again without any type of leverage device was going to be an issue, but today didn’t matter as I had tools at my disposal, so off it came.
I take it off and I reach for the rotor. It spins freely when I touch it, and I know that is not what it is supposed to do. I remove said POS thinking the worst that my distributor shaft is sheared off of snapped, but it does not move when I touch it. I then look at the underside of the rotor, and there is the problem. It’s missing its plastic key that mates to the key way in the distributor shaft. WTF! Problem number three, found and solved. This is the one that was the nail in my Volvo that kept it from running under load.
So to make an already long story shorter by a bit, we eventually found an Advance Auto parts an hour away that had one in stock. Put it in and the car ran, and drove like it should, so off we went and some five hours later, the car was home.
So to close with some ramblings on this experience.
1. Patience. Take your time and check everything, no matter what you think you’ve done to the car. In my case I realized yesterday that on this particular car I never, ever, replaced the distributor, rotor, wires, or plugs. I’m fixing this today!
2. Never discount anything, no matter how insignificant you think it might be. Because of me not being patient, and not remembering correctly, which happens a lot more now than it used to, I refused to believe that what I hadn’t yet looked at, was the actual problem.
3. Have an emergency tool kit with you. Your leather man doesn’t count! It only adds to the tools you already have. My take away here is that I now need to make up an emergency tool kit of tools and of various know parts that may fail in the field. I have most of what Art showed in his pictures, but not with me, UGH! I will not make this mistake again. This tool kit will ride with me and my family whenever I or the family gets into one of these older cars as I don’t want to feel helpless again, nor have my lovely young bride freaking out or worrying over things.
So there you all have it, my tale of woe and sadness. It wasn’t that I had one problem, but three, although, the rotor was the true nail in the coffin for the car. What I have yet to understand is how was it that I was able to get the car to start and run, not once, but four separate times, and then only under load would it show itself and die. How does the rotor align itself four separate times in the correct orientation and stay there until under load? I can’t explain it either, but it is now on my wall of shame at work and will leave a lifelong lasting impression on me and how I approach troubleshooting one of these old cars.
Matt
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Hi
This is nice a conclusion to my love of drama and mystery!
I see why I was in your shoes with you with my earlier post. You had spark and it ran twice and then it doesn’t run and the spark disappeared.
The disappearance of spark had me thinking that the “timing belt slipped or broke.”
This could cause the rotor to be where it should not be, to come out on the Number one spark plug wire!
I have never liked checking for good sparks by using only one spark plug wire!
That is OK, only when it’s single cylinder engine!
Then you found the coil wire wire itself was sparking!
Yep, that’s when the “Thinking cap” goes on and the “Distributor cap” comes off!
I guess we have all learned our basics from a lawnmower. Car engines have a tendency to multiply that factor up a few points that you are really checking every lawnmower, in your whole neighborhood, all at once!
I don’t have an explanation of how the rotor button could cause all of the chaos you experienced.
I would not say that the loading of the engine had anything with making the button shift around on the distributor shaft.
Apparently it was on there, just steady enough, to only bobbled a little despite the engine coughing and spluttering!
The buttons weight, or mass, was testing some of Newton’s law of motion!
I will say that the “timing” also moves around electronically with help of a knock sensor and playing catch-up!
The random arcing of the coil wire going on and a twisting rotor button both were giving the whole ignition system fits!
I would go even farther to say, that the “self tuning” phrase, that these computers systems claim, were doing a remarkable job!
You definitely had a Swedish Smorgasbord of calamity all at once!
I’m glad you were so calm with your car and with any of that surrounding traffic too!
Phil
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Very nice story and ending. Reminds me of me.
Marty
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Picture of the rotor showing the sheared key?? (or it didn't happen ha ha)
New one on me, that's for sure! One of the surest ways to stump me is to build in a man-made problem. Never heard of this one before.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
The older I get the faster I was.
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Art,
I'll take a better picture tonight and post. I'm still trying to recover from this adventure, so more sleep is still needed.
Matt
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Hi,
Timing belt? Maybe it took a few tries to jump far enough?
Are you using socket six to run the operational function of components for the look and listen show?
You should some faint buzzing from the injectors and the IAC.
I don't understand how you are entering a code so I'm not up on the electronic part of this OBD stuff!
Do you mean you have no LED light? I think you just hold it down in position two.
Got me on how to check for a bad CPS, if you have spark. So I'm wondering where the cylinders are in relation to that spark you see?
Did you run out of gas from a bad fuel gauge?
I love the drama of waiting, don't you all?
(:)
Phil
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Yeah, we know how much Matt uses the Brickboard and gives to it. Hard to imagine he's had his car towed to a strange shop and is renting a vehicle to continue the holiday adventure, leaving his brick with someone he's just met. Yet we don't hear, so how can we help.
Actually, his symptom, if not the water leaking inside, sounds like lack of electrical power along the red lead from battery, through blade fuse, to the FI relay terminal 30. This is the one that is checked by using the test light at the orange wire on the air mass meter. If I had $500 for every 25A blade fuse that was "bad" and had to pay $1 for every time I heard "the fuse is fine" without any hint of how it is known to be "fine" I'd be deep in debt. But, the fuse is fine. It always is.
(Glove box emergency kit)
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
"Sometimes I think the greatest talent of all is perseverance. But only sometimes." -Mitch Albom
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Art,
All I report at this moment is this mechanic and I pulled plug #1 out and cranked the car and got no spark, so I'm running with a bad coil at the moment.
Getting back to your picture, what are you wanting to test on this blade fuse.
More information would be useful as I'm now putting together my tools for tomorrow's adventure to bring it on home.
Thanks in advance,
Matt
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Hi Matt,
The photo I included in my first reply showed water dripping on the ignition control unit from the wiper motor's grommet. While that occurred, the OBD did not work, similar to your report. There was water inside the ignition computer, on the circuit board. I assume the microprocessor was not running its code and that is why the OBD did not respond. It did again after carefully drying the circuitry and cable connector.
Since then, I've looked at another car that sometimes is balky after a heavy rain. There's the same witness mark showing the path of dirty water from the grommet, but in this car it veers to the side where the fuel computer is mounted. I'm beginning to imagine this is another 240 vulnerability across the board, and not just an isolated instance.
No-start diagnosis, on the road, is a stressful task, the stress highly dependent on how safely you're off the road. There have been times I've foregone the glove box kit and moved directly to the cell phone to call for a tow.
In safer situations, I suggest first of all, be sure the cranks-but-doesn't-catch symptom isn't the result of a stripped timing belt. It's easy. Look inside the oil cap, memorize the position of one of the cam lobes, bump the starter and look again to be sure it moved.
Next, I want to know if it is missing spark or fuel. If I haven't a clue (like the fuel smell) I can take the spare plug from the kit and connect it to the coil wire, and using the long male spade wire in the kit, crank the car from under the hood. Of course, the key must be on.
If there were no spark, I'd check the OBD for any unexpected reaction from the #6 slot. If the code stored was the "checks good" 111, I'd look at the CPS wire, maybe give it a shake while cranking, watching for spark. Then, I'd use the test light to check for battery voltage at coil terminal 15. Assuming there is, I'd connect the light between 15 and 1 (across the coil primary) and crank again, looking for the flashes indicating the power stage is switching the coil.
Now, if spark does exist and the trouble is fuel, I'd want to first check the power to the engine management systems under load at the FI relay terminal 30. That's the wire from your blade fuse that's famous for being corroded at the fuse holder or battery connection. To check that with a load, I slip the boot back from the AMM and, using the paper clip as a probe, connect the test light to the orange wire terminal to see that power is there with key on. If it is, I know that blade fuse (or 6 in your later cars) wiring is handling its load and that the FI system relay is doing its thing.
Assuming all is looking normal thus far, I'd move to what you already did, I think, and use the jumper to bring power from fuse 6 (unused in your car, but still wired to battery) to fuse 4, which hot-wires the fuel pumps. I'd listen for the pumps -- which can be a challenge on a busy highway -- and then try to start the car with the pumps running. If still stumped, I might try to "test" the fuel ECU by running through the pin-2 OBD output checks, in Mode 3, where you expect to hear the idle valve clacking, and the injectors clicking. When I forget how to put it in Mode 3, I pull out my phone and get the OBD section from the Brickboard's 7/9 FAQ list.
This all sounds simple and easy, but I can assure you, the situation changes when your family is not safely removed from it.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
It's all fun and games until your jeans don't fit.
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If you've been through any rain, have a look under the glove box. Your symptom of not being able to use OBD reminds me of this, although my issue was ignition.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
There is no psychiatrist in the world like a puppy licking your face.
-Ben Williams
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Art,
Yes I've been through some rain. You know we have.
My wife and I drove through it on Sunday and were just coming out of it when the car died.
I did have the cover off so that I could gain access to the fuel pump relay, but I do not remember seeing any water running down.
When you state it was your ignition, please elaborate. Was it your coil or what?
Thanks,
Matt
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Art-
You mention this and this reminds me of when I had water drip through the wiper motor grommet and into the Fuel Pump Relay. It was during wintertime and the car had sat during the weekend outside. Tried to start it and it wouldn't start. I popped open the relay box and found a little chunk of ice blocking one of the relays. That was an odd one.
Travis
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Travis, what did you do about the wiper motor grommet? I'm sure if I saw your post I warned to keep that relay wiring loop pointed toward the earth.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
The average dog is a nicer person than the average person.
-Andy Rooney
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The rubber of the grommet seemed fine and pliable but I pulled the motor and put a bit more of the black electrical sealant putty around the body and the motor.
I had seen your post at some point (years ago) and I repositioned the relay in the clamp so the opening pointed downward after that.
Travis
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Most of my blame for the presence of water dripping down from under-dash wiring has been focused on leaky windshields. When I saw the wet this time, it bothered me, having recently replaced the glass. I was very glad to see it came from that wiper grommet!
The pan under the cowl ends just above the wiper motor drive. The water from it literally pours on the top of that grommet. The leak isn't between the wiper motor and outer body, but between the grommet and the inner sheet metal. If the grommet once fit tightly, I don't know; I suspect not. Yes it is still soft, but without the wiper motor in place I can shove the grommet around with about 1/16" of play in the body hole. Shove it with a drinking straw!
The groove was filled with crud, the technical term for decayed plant matter. I added an O-ring to the groove to make it fit tightly again, and I hope, seal out the weather. I'm always looking for something to defend the reputation my Volvos have for being lousy in the rain. Leaky windshields, clogged cowl, door, and rocker panel drains.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
Sometimes I wonder if our lives are all about the challenge of keeping gases and liquids where they belong.
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Hi,
Just throwing some guesses your way and hopefully someone with more experience will reply but I would check the inside of your Distributor Cap for moisture.
Do you have a spare fuel pump relay? If not maybe jump the appropriate terminals.
Travis
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