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So yesterday was one of the first warm days around here in the Pacific NW. My wife and I took off for a drive and to do a hike. On the way home we both heard a noise that seemed unfamiliar. It was a constant buzzing or maybe whining sound that seemed to me to come from the driver's side rear. This only happened when the key was on and the engine running. It did not happen with the key on and engine NOT running.
I am of the (not so) informed opinion that this may be the fuel pump or fuel pump related. About 2 years ago I had to follow Art's instructions on how to make a new fuel line and when I installed it I replaced both main pump and filter at the same time. It was a Bosch pump from IPD. I figured why fool with anything else since changing it is such a PIA under the car? But I do not think I have heard any real noise from it since then until yesterday.
I am pretty sure that when starting off in the morning with the tank more full and the temps lower that I heard no such noise. But when we did hear it the tank was around 1/2 full and it was 70 degrees or so and we had been driving maybe 40 miles non-stop.
However, this morning when I went out in the much cooler temps to try and listen some more, I heard nothing at all.
I am feeling like this MAY be the influence of a poor or dead in-tank pump which is original equipment (1983). I have heard and read about these but never had to deal with them myself. I checked the fuse on #5 and it is fine. I checked the hot side of the fuse holder (with fuse removed) and got over 12V. I tried to listen down the fuel filler cap (really?) and could hear nothing. Of course the car was running so is that is noise enough to cover something like this?
The car never displayed any problems starting or of being starved for fuel. So I am not really sure what is up, if anything. But with half tank and higher than recent temps and the new noise yesterday, I have to wonder...
I am trying to read and understand Art's detailed article on all this. Doubt I will undertake anything here myself and instead take it to Rainbow Auto who is an old Volvo specialist. But want to at least make sure I am on the right path in my suspicions.
I also have noticed that my fuel efficiency seems lower than I expect (maybe 17-18 MPH on the interstate) and am not sure if this has anything to do with that. I did replace the AMM a while back to relieve a bad rich running condition. Since them, seems to run well but I feel like on the interstate I used to get 23-25MPH. Maybe my old man brain is addled? It is not easy for me to get accurate MPH most of the time due to long dead odometer (another story).
Thanks for all.
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Hi,
I agree that is an old in-tank pump that can cause the pump to exhibit cavitation sounds.
I can't say a noisy pump is a good sign for the FPR but the tank pump is definitely one.
The amount of fuel level in the tank or that flexible rubber connecting hose inside there is a good bet for the come and going away sounds!
Phil
With that said, I will blabber on!
17-18 miles per gallon on a freeway drive or even town driving is low.
If you do a lot of long warmups and lots of short drives, the mileages can be lower, under as cold or colder temperatures.
Since you are experiencing that much lower mileage, it is possible that the system might be operating under excessive pressure on top of the injectors.
This can be caused by a going bad or gone bad Fuel Pressure Regulator.
One way, the FPR is failing to follow the vacuum pull from the throttle port.
When the vacuum drops the FRP closes down on the return line flow rate.
The pressure on the injectors is raised. If the pressures are being higher all the time and therefore running rich, it will have what they needs to respond to accelerations.
So consequently you notice "no lag" in power.
Do you have emissions checks or tune ups regularly?
Cause trouble is ... a mileage drop occurs.
Similar to running a little bit of choke on or having a four barrel carburetor "acceleration pump" that you seem not to be able to keep your foot off of!
Second way, If it is not returning enough fuel through the return line back to the fuel tank.
A slight rise in pressure can happen if the return line is somehow getting restricted. This is very unlikely except for the rubber hoses right at the FPR or back at the tank area.
The line in between these two ends is made metal so it would take something like a bump from a big rock underneath to pinch it down.
So the question might be, when you go hiking, Are you truely like some rock-a-billy goats hanging around is somewhere in the hills? (:-). Some 240's take a beating because they are cheaper to turn into beaters!
Or another question, like with the in-tank pump, How old is the FPR?
They did have a relatively higher failure rate until you get up higher into the later years of the LH series.
My 1984 had one go bad and it was very sneaky because it had no leaky signs externally.
Hard morning starting or richer running. It just starts SLOWLY happening.
Phil
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Hi Phil and thanks to you for your response. I am nearly 100% sure the fuel pressure regulator (www dot fcpeuro dot com/products/volvo-fuel-pressure-regulator-240-0280160293) is original to the car. I never paid any attention to it at all until I was trying to track down the very rich running condition which turned out to be the AMM. All I did at that time was check for leaks coming out and found none.
The car is starting fine and running smoothly since the AMM replacement. So not really sure what could be up. I am certainly not aware of any fuel leakage. Do not see any on the ground nor do I smell anything. My wife has the nose, so it would have been noticed for sure.
I have been hard on the underside once that I can recall - but driving over a speed bump pissed off and in a hurry rather than gallivanting around in the bush. In so doing, I guess smacked the fuel line resulting in a leak later on which a local shop was not able to patch properly. So I ended up following Art's article on making an entirely new line - worked perfectly!
Once it stops raining, I will go ahead and try to see about jumping the fuses as CB and others suggest.
Cheers!
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Hi,
From experience, I can say that a fuel pressure regulator that stops regulating can make for a noisy main fuel pump. I think Mr. Benstein determined that this type of FPR faliure is caused by a broken spring inside the unit.
I don't know if the pump get's noisy from cavitation, or maybe there's a relief valve in it that's buzzing.
Other symptoms I had with this condition were a dry fuel return line, sooty plugs from the high fuel pressure, and mileage in the teens. As well, the idle was not as smooth as one would like.
regards,
Peter
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Thanks Peter. I will obviously have to check this too. Idle seems fine. But the mileage is not great and the wife thought she heard the noise from up front somewhere while I heard it from the back driver's side. When I opened the hood I did not hear anything out of the ordinary. Hmmm...
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posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Tue Mar 13 20:00 CST 2018 [ RELATED]
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using Art's CleanFlameTrap pages, you will find a way to Test the InTank Pump buy jumping the In Tank fuse to the Hot side of the Main Fuel Pump fuse. You do this with the engine off. If the InTank pump does not run then that's your problem.
Art has pics and instructions
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Thanks CB. Finally got a nice chance to do this today. I looked again at Art's fine write-up.
Here is what I tried. Car is off and dead cold but air is nice and warm (maybe 55):
a) Remove fuse 5.
b) From the power (left) side of fuse 7, jumpered right side of fuse 5 with both test light and jumper cable. No light, no noise.
c) From the power (left) side of fuse 7, jumpered left side of fuse 5 with both test light and jumper cable. Get light, get normal sounding main pump noise.
As I understand things (which is limited), this indicates a dead tank pump which is consistent with the louder than normal main pump noise I heard on another warm day after having driven 40 miles and down to about 1/2 tank. Is this correct?
As I understand things, this does not seem related to issues of low MPG.
Thanks
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At the risk of sounding stupid which is often times easy for me, check to make sure that the pumps are energized from fuse five. On my car it was fuse four. Of course, my bricks we're 93's.
Marty
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Thanks Marty, I certainly did do that. And you are correct that mine uses #5.
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posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Sun Mar 18 17:41 CST 2018 [ RELATED]
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Seems you do have a failed In Tank pump.
The next question is: it the pump really dead or is the wiring at the top of the sender unit the problem.
You need to remove the inspection plate that gives access to the sender unit. And check the condition of the wires.
The pict that ART shows is a Later sender top with a sealed wire conectiion.
The picture below shows a rusted off connection from an older one---probalbly the set up you have on the 83.
The one I have in my 1980 - there are 2 wires going to the top of the sender that connect with push on blade connectors. The male posts on the sender get corroded and rust away.
If it's the wiring then you'll have to replace the entire unit.
You need to look under that access plate.
http://cleanflametrap.com/transferPump.htm
As far a the MPG problem, it's a separate issue.
you wrote: It is not easy for me to get accurate MPH most of the time due to long dead odometer (another story).
If that is so, How do you determine the MPG?
L
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Thanks for all. I will check out under the inspection plate. Thankfully, my car hasn't had much suffering from rust. But no idea about under there...
Regards MPG, that is a good question. I took a road trip from Seattle to Portland and back in this car. I even managed to stop in at IPD! I started full and kept my GPS tracker on all the time in my phone. After filling in Portland and once back in Seattle I was able to compute a fairly reliable MPG. But I don't do this all the time. I was very surprised by what seemed a pretty low MPG on this trip. I would have expected 20+ since there was not much in-city driving involved.
Cheers
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posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Sun Mar 18 17:55 CST 2018 [ RELATED]
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The picture below shows a rusted off connection from an older one---probalbly the set up you have on the 83.
The one I have in my 1980 - there are 2 wires going to the top of the sender that connect with push on blade connectors. The male posts on the sender get corroded and rust away.
SHOULD READ There are 2 wires plus Brown Ground Wire --that cnnx with a blade
SEE PIX
http://cleanflametrap.com/transferPump_files/image046.jpg
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Thanks again CB. Following your instructions and Art's, I found it quite easy to check things out under and around the access plate. Things were nowhere near as ugly as I would have suspected from Art's photos of his 83  . Must be the gentle life in California and being garaged here in the PCW until 12 years ago. There was some leaf and maple tree seed debris under there but I vacuumed that up and was able to get clear photos using my phone so I could see what is going on.
I tested the brown wire at the spade connector for continuity to ground at where the same wire is screwed to the body nearby. And that seems fine. I also tested for power at the nearby connector with the #5 fuse (with fuse removed) right side to the #7 fuse left side and I see 12+ volts. So I think it is safe to conclude that the wiring, is likely not the issue.
Assuming I am correct and it is the in-tank pump gone dead, I will ask buddy Larry at Rainbow Auto to replace it as I think going further here is above my pay grade. I would, however, want to replace the pump - if possible - with a Bosch original rather than an after market pump.
IPD says that this (www dot ipdusa dot com/products/6787/101204-in-tank-fuel-pump-200) unit is "the same original Bosch pumps" and so it costs maybe $20 more than the aftermarket one they sell - the quality of which is anyone's guess and is longer than the original requiring some modification to the hoses inside.
Does this seem a reasonable thing to do?
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posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Mon Mar 19 17:10 CST 2018 [ RELATED]
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The last one I got was years ago from Rusty at the now defunt RPR in Oakland Ca. A Volvo part.
Send these guys a email for a price and brand.
http://www.voluparts.com/
Also whereever you buy it don't forget to get the "sock" filter that fits on the bottom of the pump and prevents gastank gunk from getting sucked into the fuel system.
This Part:
https://www.ipdusa.com/products/6043/101208-in-tank-fuel-pump-filter
Re: MPG what gearbox do you have. Auto or Manual
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Thanks. I had bookmarked the sock filter as well as the pump. I will keep looking around at pumps since Art points out the "Bosch" unit at IPD may not really be the same as the original. I will call the place you mention.
My 83 has a 4-speed with OD. M46? Or something like that. Overall this car has been great since I got it new for $11,111 in Berkeley.
Thanks
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posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Mon Mar 19 19:20 CST 2018 [ RELATED]
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The best way I found with Volupart, email first...they will respond with details and prices... then call. Saves time on the phone for you and them.
It's not at all like IPD or FCP...it's 4 guys.
You may want to ask if they have a recycled complete sender unit with pump from a later model. May be not much more than a new pump and what you'd pay you mechanic for the install. Just pop and drop.
IPD ain't the IPD of lore. Either is FCP, which started as mail order from the parts dept of Volvo dealer in Groton Conn ...ForeignCarParts Groton, before it got bought by a big net based parts seller EUROPARTS.
Then again there's no money in selling parts to DYI Volvo owners as newer Volvos became impossible/beyond for the Owner/Mechanic, and as the Owner now has the bucks to pay for that specialized computer controlled machine that is the Volvo, as well as lacking any interest in tinkering.
Your MPG - with that gearing you should get mid 20's or better on the hiway. Esp with that MPG Chrysler Ignition and the LH l Injection that was purposed to get better MilesPerGallon.
Try a new thread on that...as the fuel pump noise is solved.
cheers
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At the risk of sounding a curmudgeon, I am pretty sure that mostly everything isn't a good at is once was any more - especially ME - but also including parts and parts sellers. Alas...
I think the Chyrsler MPG is the one with the big, white distributor cap? If so, then my 83 lacks it in place of Bosch and LH injection. Has proven quite reliable and good over the years.
I am thinking, after watching a YouTube video that I MIGHT undertake this myself rather than going up to Bellingham to Rainbow. I will want to get the tool from IPD, I think to make it easier. Costly but still less than paying Larry to do it. And I will be set with the tool/experience for if/when the wife's 1980 needs the job done.
Wondering if, at this age and since it is all original, I should just put in a whole, new sender/pump assembly while I am at it. I am already considering replacing the FPR at the same time since I know it is original in an attempt to address the poor fuel consumption.
Cheers!
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posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Tue Mar 20 20:12 CST 2018 [ RELATED]
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you wrote: "Chyrsler MPG is the one with the big, white distributor cap? If so, then my 83 lacks it in place of Bosch and LH injection."
It's still a Chrysler/Volvo Ignition. The problem with the whitecap distrib was remedied by replacing it with a Bosch unit with a HALL Sensor as the guts of the distributor. The (electronics)Ignition box - sitting by the washer fluid tank on the passenger side front fender is the Volvo Chrysler unit.
The Fuel Injection System progressed over the years but the Ignition remained the same thru 1988, when Volvo switched to a CPS (Crank Position Sensor) system to fire the spark.
More than you wanted to know probably.
I have two running 240s...an 80 K-Jet and an 87, so pretty much what you have. The only difference is that the 87 has an LH2.2 FI system
https://www.ipdusa.com/techtips/10087/how-can-i-tell-which-version-of-bosch-lh-fuel-injection-is-on-my-volvo-240
Take another look at Arts CleanFT page. He shows how to "make" your own tool rather than pay IPD for that Bung Tool
http://cleanflametrap.com/transferPump_files/image034.jpg
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Re your Mileage per Gal ....check that Bellows that runs from the AMM to the Intake. If there are cracks, usually found on the side that you can't see, then unmesured air is entering and causing a Lean condition to be seen by the FI computer which will try to compensate with more fuel.
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Thanks for the response and tips. I did look at Art's tools. I immediately went to see if I had anything like it. My gear/pulley puller is a real POS and not at all like Art's. Too bad. I don't mind buying the tool. I still have some special tools from my old 1967 VW days. I love tools!
When I replaced my AMM a while ago, I inspected all that housing and found it ok. I bypassed the thermostat valve since our climate is almost never so cold as to need it.
Cheers
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Hi,
Yes agree with you that it would be a good plan to do. The Original parts or any parts as far as that goes, have a finite life expectancy. This is no matter who makes them, for our inventions or our bodies.
Besides it’s a far better investment than making a car payment that puts you right back where you are, wearing out another larger set of parts that are NOT time proven!
Speaking of time, 1983 until now is quite a run!
You cannot say you didn’t get your monies worth from them. They owe you nothing by now!
The whole car has paid a good return own your investment. I do not know of any stocks that pay back a car payment every month!
Phil
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Oh, no complaints from me here on either my or the wife's 240s. They have surpassed all expectations. The wife will not even CONSIDER something new. I think that may eventually be forced upon us. But she will be hard-pressed to give up Hilda (her 1980 244)! I do wonder about electric vehicles and have a couple friends with them. I do see some merits. But forget about working on them! More like a computer with some car functions than a car with some computer functions.
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Hi David,
Just a note of correction on your part selection. Bosch never made the pumps for the Volvo 240 fuel tanks. Bosch made a superb in-line pressure pump under the car, but the one in the tank was supplied first by VDO, and then later, in the 80's, by AC/Delco. Neither is the same company 30 years later.
What worries me is suddenly there are many Bosch-labeled products on the automotive aftermarket from brake pads to water pumps to oil filters. This was not their business in the 20th century. Could be they purchased other manufacturers and are profiting on their good name.
The ugly pic in my writeup was from a '79, and you're absolutely correct about the locale: Here they salt the roads and the stuff eventually winds up on top of the tank in that little divot created by the bung for the sender.
I would recommend the Airtex 8778, but it has been a few years since I've used one or needed one, and no one can say how quality has changed, but I can tell you I've not needed to replace any of those I've installed.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
If a giant spider catches you don't panic. It won't eat you for days.
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Hey Art,
I was watching this pretty good YouTube video on this subject (www dot youtube dot com/watch?v=JTvwv5-5hEM) and near the end he shows the markings on the sender unit which was not replaced. I noted that IT says VDO on it. And this reminded me where I saw VDO specifically mentioned in all this.
It was when I was looking at sending units at FCP (www dot fcpeuro dot com/Volvo-parts/242/Fuel-System-Parts/?year=1983&m=142&e=914) where they list an expensive Volvo "kit" (where in the details, the included pump is said to be Delphi). They also offer a less expensive, sender-only that they say is VDO.
I also notice that both FCP and IPD offer both "Bosch" filter socks (at significantly higher prices) and other, aftermarket ones. If Bosch made the sock filters, perhaps they did also the pumps? As you point out, they made great high pressure fuel pumps for these beasts.
So I wonder if the in-tank pumps were actually VDO or just the sender? I have no idea VDO, Bosch, or something entirely different. The Delphi ones say made in UK, like the ones in the video (which was a later, 199x model).
Cheers
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Art, as always a fountain of information. Is this (www dot amazon dot com/Airtex-E8778-Electric-Fuel-Pump/dp/B00284GVH2) the pump to which you refer? I have to admit that I find the IPD listing a bit odd in that it says AFTERMARKET when describing that pump but then says it is original Bosch - which you now point out, and I think I saw this elsewhere somewhere too - is not correct and should be VDO. Thanks
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Just called IPD in an effort to clear this up. Despite their text saying "These pumps are the same original Bosch pumps that will last as long as the original", the person on the phone said they were made by Delco but were "Bosch-style" whatever that means - perhaps they are the same size as the original rather than longer like many of the aftermarket units. So really, this is inaccurate description causing my confusion. Sorry for all the bother about this. I would like a pump that does not require modifications to the sender. Is the Airtext the same size? Cheers!
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Hi,
Where are you in WA state? I happen to own the tool needed to get the sender out. I'm on Mercer Island, let me know. Email is carver (at) mac dot com.
Carver
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Hi and thanks! I used to be in Seattle near UofW. Now I am pretty much restricted to the wilds of Whidbey Island. I appreciate the offer. I don't really mind buying the tool at $24 from IPD. I do love tools! Not sure if I will or will visit my buddy Larry in Bellingham. Might do well with a brief change of venue :-)
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If you change your mind let me know, I could always mail it to you. It's not a heavy tool. The job is not that hard as well. I've done four PNW Volvo's and it's always been pretty easy.
Was just at Larry's today to pickup all the fixings for a M46 transplant for my 245DL.
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Oh man, I wish I had a 245 with manual tranny!
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