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I really hate to post again and appreciate all the past help given to me. If you followed the history of my problem (see old posts) and helped me before you know I thought it certainly resolved after fixing loose connectors at the fuel pump. The car ran great for a month but I noticed recently the idle seemed just a little lower and rougher than when I first repaired the connectors. I am confident this was a real problem but then it died again just the other day and exhibited the same old symptoms (crank but not start and then after a bit start). So I rechecked the connectors briefly at the pump and they looked tight and admittedly the problem could again be her. I may try to totally replace them with a better connector from a hardware store, but I do now wonder if that was truly the only problem......see below.
After it died recently it threw a 224 code on pin 6 which is the coolant temperature sensor (ECT thermistor). Note the car was throwing this code in the past prior to fixing the fuel pump loose connections. I can see per the manual that the ECT sensor is tied into the fuel circuit and that its two leads feed both the ECU and the Ignition Control module.
I am now trying to get to the ECT thermistor to test it. It is a bugger. I've looked at the you tube suggestions but am considering pulling the intake manifold as I've pulled a lot of stuff with no success. While inspecting the sensor I noticed its two wires had been cut and previously replaced with two new wires spliced and routed to the control units.
Looking back on old paperwork I saw the ECT thermistor was replaced by a prior owner maybe six years ago. The car had the sudden stall problem even back then and it has sadly continued through all these years. I assume thinking they replaced the wires when replacing the ECT to ensure there was no short. The replacement wires seem to be a slightly heavier gauge so I'm wondering if that affects the voltage as it would seem to affect the resistance. I also wonder of course if there is a fault somewhere along one or both of those wires and will test as soon as I can get access. I will also test the ECT for hot and cold resistance if possible.
So I'm wondering a few things: 1. should I just pull the intake manifold to get to the ECT as it seems I am struggling and maybe hurting more than helping pulling so much other stuff? 2. how might I know which pins the ECT wires go to on the two different control units to check continuity? I haven't found a pin layout diagram anywhere. 3. could a problem with the ECT cause a stall/restart problem? 4. could the ECT replacement wire thickness be a problem by sending an inaccurate signal to the control units?
I appreciate any thoughts....again.
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Mr. Foulk,
A site that lists the ECU connector pinouts for the LH-Jetronic 2.4 and EZK116 EZK wire harness connectors at the ECU.
http://ipdown.net/jetronic.info/tiki-index.php?page=LH2.4+Pinouts+and+Diagrams
Though no mention of EGR function (and pins). (Found this site for an eventual EGR delete on my 1991.) I do not have the green manuals for this info. (So much for grabbin' and keepin' them green manual PDFs when kjet.org was runnin'. Dunno the disposition. Need to check the sticky on Turbobricks someday on where these PDFs now reside, if they do, for our reference.)
http://volvowiringdiagrams.com/volvo/240%20Wiring%20Diagrams/Volvo%20240%201990.pdf
PDF page 18 of 20
Both ECT wires are red / blue stripe from the ECT connector that quickly hides under the sheathing. If the ECT is replaced by the prior owner, so the ECT connector has fresh conductive contact with the factory wiring not being futzed with, like cut or what have you, suspect corrosion at the ignition ECU wire harness connector. You're in Ohio, yes? So, .1" snow and 5" road salt.
As Phil Machine Man recommends, LPS ONE, as you wiggle them wire harness connectors, fuse ends, wire harness terms. I'd also advocate the magical DeoxIT-D spray or salve (grease).
Yet futzing with the wire harness connector boots to perform a careful (no short, please!) back probe at the ECU connector to verify what the EXK116 ECU reports at socket six for fault code 2-2-4.
The replaced ECT could have failed on the connected ignition side of the sensor. Doubtful if OEM?
I seem to recall a factory crimped connection under the wire harness sheathing between, yet under the intake runners 2 and 3. Yet doubt it is the ECT wires. I forget now. Corrosion can form at the crimp.
There is the lament that brickboard member Tinkerbelle went through with her 740 where a prior owner cut and crimped the wires at the ECT connector. Tinkerbelle soldered and sealed the two wires to the ECT connector and also replaced it with new OEM. Tinkerbelle's ECT issues became solved through her efforts.
OEM ECT is made by Bosch. Bosch PN 0280130032 Volvo PN 1346030
https://www.ipdusa.com/products/6210/112946-fuel-injection-engine-coolant-temperature-ect-sensor
Tasca or FCP Euro or Autozone may be cheaper for OEM and closer to you?
Maybe the green manual PDFs are now posted somewhere? I may look at the thread on Turbobricks. It was reading like someone would hold the info and PDF files hostage, freed for a fee, some around 6 gigs of Volvo reference content including many years of green manual sets.
I guess we can suffer Volvo Tips and the low res flash files and the ads? Hmm.
I guess you've read the FAQ entry on engine sensors and the ECT diagnosis?
https://www.brickboard.com/FAQ/700-900/EngineSensors.htm#DiagnosingECTFailures
Questions?
Hope that helps.
Hope to Help Make Apples and Cherries in WA-state as it is WA-state. MO-sucks.
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Radio KAOS-FM 89.3 Olympia, WA-state. Mighty WA-state.
Jack Decatur as your Host. 6-9 AM Pacific Time
MP3 Stream @ http://205.134.192.90:8930
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Hi Mark,
I have been busy but have been watching your new postings about the car dying again.
Doesn't seem to be many ideas coming forth to what could be the cause.
I would sincerely think that ECT should not be able to shut down the engine. It's is an input to the computers programming to adjust fuel mixture and timing of the ignition BTDC, in the case of overheating, as a worse case scenario to help prevent premature detonation. The knock sensor works if it hears a knock. It doesn't shut down the engine either.
So it's been doing well since you went in after the main fuel pump connections. I'm still thinking along those ideas, as many others, of where or what is acting like a loose connection and to what has the capability to shut down the engine randomly.
This thinking would include that ignition amplifier relay. Relays in themselves are things that start and stop things from working. Especially, the mechanical ones and because of this inherited nature, it is the reason why you have never seen them used in such a high speed location.
The last place was the old voltage and current regulators where you adjusted a generators output. The contacts points in those got very close to vibrating. Thus it was also mounted on a fender, near the battery, under a metal cover.
With that said, under the hood temperature are still relative if the amplifier is displaying a stress of age? One has to remember that this item is remote or not built into the ECU for a reason. First it may have been to big. Secondly if it has a failure rate the engineers what it to be accessible.
ALL Sounds familiar?
Taking this into account the AR must very good in their operations so it's has to lose signal or power not to operate.
Since you cleaned it's ground, inspected the connector pins and applied an corrosion inhibitor I want to dismiss it just turning off.
The part about heat sink paste applied between base and the components may not be as big of an issue now that we are in cooler temperatures of the season.
Outside of this guessing one or I would have to consider a signal drop out to turn off the ignition amplifier.
At this point you are still hunting or servicing, I like to say, the go between items.
My best suggestion is to start with both the ICU and ECU connectors, yes those big ones, and spray them with LPS ONE. Push them back on and off about three times to cause the contact surfaces to clean themselves. Why three times? We want some CHARM to appear to help us out!
While you are down there study how they are assembled so you know how to pull off the back covers in case you ever need to back probe the pins as Art Benstein does.
The ECT can be read for voltages or continuities depending on the items PIN number.
You may ask why LPS ONE.
Well, in the days of lore, TV tuner cleaner use to be a choice and still is if you can find it?
Radio volume controls are, or were, potentiometers and a product good for both. It was called "No Noise." No raspy and scratchy sounds when turning it after using it.
It was very thin and had chemical that actively removed oxidation. It applied a very light corrosion inhibitor with some lubrication film.
It did not attract dust onto the fine thin spring like fingers with contacts and the contact drum that was turn beneath them.
This was a big deal and if you have seen dust on the outside of your TV in your home, imagine what went on inside the housing. There were lots magnetic fields around those old cathode rays tube sets being generated to move electron beams. So much that they came with degaussing coils!
LPS ONE is greaseless and leaves a film. That's it, just a little help that's easy to apply with more uses than No Noise.
There are other things, except WD-40, that might works as well.
You have to watch out for any side effects.
Just like our medications of today you might feel worse down the road.
You have to remember, this is the age of plastics and they are also a petroleum based product.
Intermittently look through the connectors elsewhere as this is an intermittent! (:-)
I want to keep working outwards from the computers. It must be an output/input signal cutout that could be power like to the pumps.
I want to ask, does it instantly just turn off like a switch or does it sputter and wind down when it dies.
Mostly at idle or while pulling down the road or in off idle mode?
Phil
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Phil - I've been off for a while so sorry for the late response. I kind of gave up for a while with the holidays. Thanks so much for continuing to respond. I saw your suggestions. When it first died again it did seem to be a gradual die down but hard to tell since I was moving and couldn't hear the engine. I could just feel that it was or had lost power. So not sure. But I have seen that each time it dies I believe it throws the 224 or ECT code. So I did look more closely at that ECT and saw that the wires back to the computer had been spliced. So I'm thinking they replaced the ECT at some point in the past but were also concerned about the wiring. I played around pulling on those spliced wires and then had a terrible time getting the car to start again. It did start but died quickly and this dying was not sputtering but just abrupt. Odd thing, sometimes when I would turn the key to try and start it again, it felt like the starter or something would freeze if that makes sense. I could feel the power trying to turn over the starter but nothing moved. It was kind of like it locked up or had it in its grip. So it would try to turn but lock up. Odd.
Anyway, I would clear the 224 code and then let it die again just to confirm that the same code came back and it did. With all that I figured, certainly possibly incorrectly, that it is either the wiring from the ECT back to the computer or the ECT itself. So I ordered and received an ECT from IPDUSA (not OEM) and an intake gasket. I read the quickest way to replace the ECT was to pull the intake manifold. I tried to get to the ECT without doing that and really had no lock as it was too cramped.
So that is where I stopped during the holidays. I am ready now to try again and pull the intake manifold, replace the ECT, and re-splice or re-run two new wires back to the computer. I figure I will try to check continuity on those wires back to the computer prior and see if when I wiggle they drop out. I will also clean the contacts as recommended. I have a can of VOC Electro Contact Cleaner that I've used over the years and think that would be good.
I don't know the best or easiest way to remove the intake manifold so if you have any advice there it is appreciated. But I was hoping I could just remove nuts and pull it back far enough to get to the ECT and replace the gaskets.
As to the connectors at the fuel pump, I did recheck them and they seemed sold. I am thinking of using a different connector type just in case. Question - do you think dielectric grease would help if put on the connectors?
That's all for now and thx again greatly. Hope all is well with you and yours. Mark
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HI,
Glad to know you are still kicking them tires!
You might want to research what pins you need to access on the ECU for the ECT sensor.
I believe Art has posted such information because it is easier and more accurate to do from in the cabin.
I think he said you can read resistance back to the sensor there, that will check the wiring or read a voltage on those pins that correlated to a chart he posted here.
This was on a 700 series but it should be close enough to to help you in some way.
https://www.brickboard.com/RWD/volvo/1652644/740/760/780/knock_sensor_ect.html
Maybe he will catch your post soon and straighten me out like he usually does. (:-)
This was a bit over my head when I read it the first time.
I looked again and for me it's like stirring fog with my hands!
Good luck,
Phil
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Thanks Phil. I will keep you posted!
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Eh, I think I remember that thread. I was gonna say it needs the correct fitting for the pins on the fuel pump.
(volvo p/n 3523813)
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
The reason a dog has so many friends is that he wags his tail instead of his tongue.
-Anonymous
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When my 1990 240 was stalling I was advised that it be the power stage amplifier, because it was stalling on hot days 92 degrees plus. I removed it and applied heat sink to absorbent the heat. It has worked fine for a few years now.
Have you checked your fuel computer, some are better than others.
Best of luck.
Joseph in New Mexico
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Thank you. I've checked that amplifier and believe it's good or. Appreciate your input.
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This info is for the 2.4 ignition. Think that's what you have.
https://www.brickboard.com/FAQ/700-900/EngineSensors.htm#DiagnosingECTFailures
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Post Back. That's whats makes this forum work.
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When my 1990 240 was stalling I was advised that it be the power stage amplifier, because it was stalling on hot days 92 degrees plus. I removed it and applied heat sink to absorbent the heat. It has worked fine for a few years now.
Best of luck.
Joseph in New Mexico
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