Hi all,

Hoping you all can give me an order of operations for tracing our recent high fuel use. The last tank was down to 14.5 mpg, which we've never seen before.

No codes are set. No change in driveability. No fuel in the FPR vacuum hose. O2 sensor and amm <10k. No smoke.

Thanks for any help. I'd like to get this sorted before we have our emissions renewed next month, just to be safe.

This is an auto LH 2.4 car.

Cheers,
joe b.
pdx or

Teens or the spouse out for a midnight run?

Hi, this is on a '93.
It should flip an emissions code!

??????? Someone stealing gas is my first thought! Maybe it should be your second one??????

No drivability problems just went to someone else too!

If it's not leaking out to make a smell you need to sniff elsewhere. (:-)

Put a small line or dot on the gas cap sides somewhere and park it in a spot related to clock hands that you and only you remember after each fill up. Check it periodically. Don't rule out anyone too soon. Even a riding mower next door as they are only taking a gallon or two at a time.

I wonder who has a key or doesn't need one?
Phil

Standard or automatic?
I was getting worse mileage than that (13 something) and then I discovered the automatic transmission wasn't going into high gear. I installed one of those by pass plates and am now getting 25 something.

completely flush the tranns fluid w 3 gallons

Do a complete flush of the brake fluid w synthetic fluid...

And the plugs say...clean! No signs of excessively rich running on any of the four. Gaps were a little wide of spec, and I brought them back to .030, but that wouldn't explain such a large increase in fuel use. I'll still go ahead and check that the ECT's within spec and, if so, consider checking fuel pressure. No one replied to my "how dumb would it be..." about using an air gauge on the fuel rail schrader valve. Your lawyers would be proud of you, and I'll look for better options.

In the meantime, I think I'll go ahead and have it smogged, given that it seems to be burning clean enough. I'll also give more thought to non-engine factors, though I'd think a caliper that stuck would be noticeable driving around.

Thanks again,
joe

Hi, that plug looks as good as they come! Hardly used and no timing or heat range issues.
If it starts quick and idles smoothly it should pass smog.

If you want you can use an air gauge that is round like your refrigeration gage set. You don't want to use a pen pocket type.
You want a Bourdon tube type. Both are a sealed and curved tube with a gear train attached to move the needle. The tube is made of copper or brass and have no problem with most fluids that are not corrosive.

The FPR is totally mechanical and works independent of wishes from the electronic LH system.
FPR's usually fail by losing pressure overnight and the mornings start slow in order to refill the fuel rail. The next is flooding back through the vacuum hose from a split in the diaphragm. Lastly it can be its gone out of calibration or a restricted return line. Both are Very rare but possible.
I have not found one, but if I do I will try to tweak the spring on the vacuum side to see if it has one? I'm sure it's not recommended. My one and only was a rest pressure issue on an '84.

Just for doing sakes, check the gas cap for proper venting and holding pressure since its summer time. I put my lips around the outside end and do a suck and blow. You should be able to suck air but not out. It takes a lot more to lift the valve.
Inspect the rubber grooved seal as it appears that keep your tank filled up pretty much all the time.
It's highly unlikely that there is anything wrong, unless you have smelt for or are going to smell gas soon?

Been thinking of what Bulletproof said with you mileage drop of 23 miles or 7 mpg .... That's hefty?
You might want to put a faint mark/scratch on the cap lid. Always turn that mark to a certain clock position, by the ratchet, that only you remember. This might tell if the gas has found other ways to move out through the air?
You can burn it or someone else?
(:-)

Phil

Check the brake pads & lube al the mvoing parts,flush the brake fluid & repace w synthetic,,,dragging brakes would explain poor mpg

Perhaps the odometer is running intermittently.

Or maybe someone siphoned some gas.

My LH 2.4 car recently reported 88 miles between fills. It's usually 105. The following week it reported 82.

Subsequently I caught the trip meter sleeping on the job.


--
'80 DL 2 door, '89 DL Wagon

I wanted to follow up after all the helpful replies, and also credit bulletproof with what seems to be the correct answer--fuel theft! The car passed emissions with ease and readings were in line with previous ones. I'd been meaning to mark the gas cap but failed to get around to it--however, the guy pumping gas today (Oregon is full service only) noted that the cap was loosened and cross-threaded. Added to the increase in petty theft in our hood of late, and I think siphoning is the simplest answer. This tank was a little better but still in the bottom 5% of fill ups over 7 years.

Anyone find a locking gas cap they like, or have a lower tech solution they like? IPD and FCP are both out of stock on the caps. Maybe we aren't alone...

Best,
joe b
pdx or

Replying to myself for the archives. Gas theft did not end up being the solution after all. We had one tank back in the usual MPG range after installing the locking cap, but the next two were the worst on record (14.7 & 14.1 mpg!). How the car's running clean and well returning that mileage is baffling.

Best,
joe b
pdx or

How are you tracking the mileage? If you are driving more miles than are being recorded that would be the problem.

With no poor running, no obvious leaks and having ruled out the other suggestions in this thread I don't know what else it could be.


--
'80 DL 2 door, '89 DL Wagon, '15 XC70 T6

Since I just recently had to repair the odometer, I was hoping that was it. I've been keeping a backup mileage log (google maps) since the fix to make sure it's accurate. Seems to be.

I'm going to get a gauge to check fuel pressure next. Thanks again for the ideas!

Best,
joe b
pdx or

Good advice above. If the sensors check out, have look at your brakes. I've had dragging callipers not cause driveability problems but still suck down the gas mileage.

Bad Air Mass Meter or bad Coolant Temperature Sensor in my experience.

I've never had a bad Fuel Pressure Regulator.
--
john

Hi,

It still could be a bad FPR. It does not have to leak from the diaphragm and into the vacuum hose to run rich. The FPR could not be returning enough fuel back to the gas tank.
This can happen if the FPR goes out of adjustment internally, the ball and seat get sticky or the return line gets restricted.
These issues with the FPR are the flip side of what can go wrong with them and are more rare.

If the pressure on the fuel rail can rise in any of the cases, a slightly richer mixture will result. Drivability may even be slightly better, power wise, but the fuel consumption will increase.
You are lucky, I think, that the '93 has a fuel rail Schrader vale that a refrigerant gauge can be put on to check the operating pressure. I added one onto my '86 many many years ago. Maybe before the 93's I don't know?

Check the spark plugs to see if they are running fluffy black with carbon. This will tell you the most.

The FPR is mechanical. The computer has no control over it. The computer can only reduce the pluse width according to the O2 sensor output signal.
This is where the codes come in but they will not tell you much more other than you are running too rich for about four non descript reasons. I like to say it's a shotgun blast at the problem. You are hitting something but looking at how many places!

The next thing to look into is a fail Coolant thermostat. Failing in the open or partial open position. The engine maybe running to cool and this makes the engine run richer. The CEL, most likely, will not throw a particular code for that either.

The next thing is the Engine Coolant Sensor for the computer, not the gauge on the dash. There are two sensors. The one on the left front is the instrument one. The one for the computer is under the third intake runner. It's in a harder place to get too, of course!

There is a specification for the resistance range that it should put out at a certain temperature. The hotter the engine the less resistance.
There is more information available on how to check the resistance on certain pins on the ECU on the right kick panel. It's a lot easier to get to and you can check the wiring while you are under there, from it.
If the sensors terminals get corroded or if worse it gets unplugged the car runs richer, like for in Alaska!

All this will give you plenty to sort through. Pick the one you think is most likely to have changed on you or has been the most neglected, as the case may be. Heck there might be a burned out CELight. Lucky you, if so!
These cars need a little TLC every once in awhile.

Phil

"It still could be a bad FPR. It does not have to leak from the diaphragm and into the vacuum hose to run rich. The FPR could not be returning enough fuel back to the gas tank.
This can happen if the FPR goes out of adjustment internally, the ball and seat get sticky or the return line gets restricted.
These issues with the FPR are the flip side of what can go wrong with them and are more rare."

I realize this is a thread started last summer with no resolution posted, but being revived here, Machine Man, your message above caught my eye, and I wanted to include my recent experience to prove exactly what you said is possible and true.

Subject car is also a '93, like Joe's, with AW-70 auto transmission. It is my #1 daughter's most recent 240, her third. She did not mention poor mileage, but did find the idle erratic and stalling occurred on decel to a stop. She took the car to the Volvo dealer who she had replacing her AC compressor (another story) but they thought her cat was clogged. Surprisingly (to me anyway) the dealership service manager recommended she get the cat replaced by Midas or Meineke as "Volvo didn't make them any longer" so, by the time it arrived at my garage, I was skeptical. My guess is the tech she trusted who "drove a 240" no longer worked there.

Sure enough, the cat was a little rattly, but it didn't fit the symptoms. I checked, the cat was available "Genuine Volvo" for a little more than $100, nothing like that $900+ they used to list for, and of course Volvo didn't make cats for 240's, they bought them.

I took the car for a drive, and sure enough I needed to "two-foot" it at the stop signs. My daughter never learned to do that, but my life has included many cars which occasionally needed this "skill," manual or automatic, to keep them from stalling.

A clogged cat is a problem I'm familiar with. I know the sound of the exhaust. Even the rattle sound the cat makes when tapped with a rubber mallet is distinctive. This car had other troubles.

Idle trouble in a car I have not maintained makes me think throttle body service, so that's where I looked first. I pulled the AMM hose to look, but all was immaculate. None of my cars was this clean for blowby. I pulled the idle valve -- same there too. Clean and dry. I can test them with a variable pulse width tester, so I did, and there was no reason to suspect the idle air valve.

Codes were clear except for a 231 - mixture out of range at part throttle. I put a meter on the oxygen sensor. It seemed stuck rich, but would cross stoich and spend some time lean, as if it were hunting hard. I pulled the FPR vacuum hose and teed in a vacuum gauge, and once again I was envious -- a steady 20 inches. Nice engine.

My daughter mentioned hearing something like someone was using a hedge trimmer nearby, but coming from the car. I couldn't hear it. She thought it was coming from under the car. In its recent history I replaced the tank sender and pump, so I ran the pumps from the fuse panel without the motor running. When I ran both, she could hear the hedge trimmer. Now I could hear what she heard, but it was not the sound of cavitation in the main pump, it sounded strained.

My first thought was maybe the fuel filter was clogged, so I put the gauge on the rail. Yes, this is a '93 with the Schrader, but like the OP here, I know by experience I'll get a fuel shower if I use a stick gauge on the rail, so I just used the one I've always used on the line fitting. Surprise!



Replaced the regulator, and we had full agreement the hedge trimming neighbor disappeared, and the test drive proved a huge improvement.



It was a surprise to me, because I'd only seen one stuck regulator before, and it was the kind used in LH2.0. Its small spring had rusted. I'd never heard of the kind used with LH2.4 sticking closed, so I was eager to see why.







I found the small spring loose outside its well under the valve ball, and to this day I don't understand how it performed its Houdini escape trick. The next surprise came when I saw how expensive these FPRs had become. The one on my shelf cost $39. The one to restock was over a hundred now.

--
Art Benstein near Baltimore

"If you send me $20 I'll send you a how-to explaining how to make $20 from people on the internet."

HI Art,

Nice pictures as usual!
You are my kind of man to tear something apart. I too, figure it can do one last thing for me, before its gets tossed. It's these cheap lessons that give me my two cents worth of knowledge. (:-)

I have never torn one of these up to peek inside. I think I had one on my '84 fail to hold rest pressure overnight. It seemed to help stop or change long cranks but the car ran fine and started better? I'm not one to tear something up without lots of proof to make it bad. I may still have it around...? Waiting, for the desperation of the someday of having nothing else to do!

I have talked about how they work and have only imagined how I would build one to do what it does.
In my minds eye, I would think there must be an way to adjust a spring against the force of another spring or force to get precise results.
With that said, did you notice a way to adjust the vacuum side spring through the port. This would set a amount of flow plus or minus of the other preset spring pressure on the check ball itself.
Something like a screw to push on a base plate under the large spring.

If nothing else they could use shims but these would have to be preset in a fixture of the same length as the cavity between the two halves of sheet metal bulbs.
Maybe they test it just before they put the final rolling crimp on the rims. $39 to $100 pays for things to be done by hand the old way.
Crimping helps stop repairs or allowing a refurbished market to appear. That is, until the price gets too high and someone else says "I can do that for less!"

Looking at your photos it seems that the ball and seat are frozen together while it was down inside between the cases. That would explain the 100 PSI. That tiny spring is like a fail safe if they locked together. I'm guessing something chemically bonded that shouldn't have.

It looks like you ground down the outsides to split them apart.
Looks like to got some of the sealing ring that holds the diaphragm suspended. The sides of red rubber are like our thermostats as it gives more to crush and seals the edges.

In the next picture it looks like a tip of a soldering iron showing.
It also looks like you had just started to separate the inner piece, with the slotted plate, from the diaphragms larger support plate.
The support plate was made to work with the larger diameter spring to give it a place to push.
It looks to me that this assembly was riveted together with the rubber diaphragm in between.

I'm with you in understanding that it looks like a pocket, for that spring you found. It also could be the inner diameter of an orbital rivet and still it looks convenient pocket for the spring.

The slotted plate looks to be made to allow the ball to enter from either side as the ends could be bigger than the ball.
If you wanted to drop in a spring, push it down a little with a thin flat tool, push or slide the ball in from either side and load the spring with the ball on top. The center cutout would be made with a smaller cutout that holds the ball in place.

If it was not assembled this way, COLD, it could be just stacked and then soldered? The riveting has to come later.
From the depths allowed out from the cone depth I do not see the first assembly method working and it would explain the solder ridge. The orbital riveting is still done on the back plate side.
The openings on each end on the sides of the ball are still there to allow gasoline around the ball.

I cannot tell from the pictures how the seat itself was held in place to the gasoline side of the case.
It looks like the seat came apart with the steel ball attached with the halves first opened. The seat in one picture looks black on the outlet side. It looks to me like a machined angle seat with an orifice hole when looking straight on to it.

Another picture shows the ball is turned upwards with something.... A looking silver plated attached.
This might tells me the ball was under the slotted plate when unsoldered. The seat looks cocked on the ball with the solder gun ready. The spring has rotated the ball and the seat attached or the ball was just loose without the spring and it took up all the play available to one side?

I have seen spring loaded seats with preset check balls in hydraulics. Most working with offsetting pressures temporarily to change flow directions to other ports. Some people call them spools and proportional controllers. Solenoids and poppets used with variable ports containing slots or vanes in their outlets. Tricky engineering compared to FPR's. These are simple devices since they control only one thing.

Can or did you see the seat side and how the seat body sit upon or in the fuel side chamber?
Was there another seal or holder within the outlet chamber to hold the seat body in place?
This is my mystery question.
How did they seal that outer body of the seat on the fuel side outlet? I'm missing a detail.

Is my day coming to see if I kept that old regulator?
(:-)

Phil

Hi Phil,

Thank you for your kind words. I did not intend for Joe, the OP, to think I believe his fuel pressure regulator has failed, but instead wanted to add an example from my experience to demonstrate your thoughts warning about this less common mode of failure.

The usual way the FPR fails is the diaphragm becomes porous. I've taken them apart once this has happened to see what the rubber looked like. The diaphragm is made from two sheets of elastomer, and my observation is the one facing the fuel is the layer to lose its resilience. I blame that on ethanol, just as I credit the ethanol for removing rusted springs (regulator and pump check valve) as a failure mode. I'm no expert in this chemical compatibility, just spouting opinions formed from what this additive does to small engine fuel systems.

That "soldering iron" is just an ordinary nail set ground to imitate a chisel. I was using it to lift the rolled cylinder capturing the valve disc and spring. The valve disc is fixed to the ball, and I believe the shape of the retaining plate (reminiscent of the blower squirrel cage impeller retainer) is exactly for the purpose you say it is. Of course, Houdini the Spring, found one of those openings made for assembling the ball/disc into the well with its rolled ridge. When this is assembled (as in this working valve from a porous regulator) the disc has maybe 15 thou travel against the small spring.

The valve seat is polished, and as the witness mark on the disc shows, controlling the alignment of the seat and disc is the centering job of the rubber diaphragm. This is more evidence that the life of this device is almost wholly wrapped up in the performance of this rubber part.

That the regulator costs more shouldn't be a surprise to me, given its manufacturing precision required in low, aftermarket replacement part quantities. Adjustable fuel regulators are used by tuners and racers, and I think modern cars have begun to use pressure sensors and feedback to turbine pumps rather than these brute force spring-loaded regulators returning fuel to the tank.

Here's what the valve seat looked like on that stuck regulator. You can see the outlet fitting (and inlet fitting) is pressed into the housing. The valve seat looks worn as if the diaphragm was weak on some point of the clock.



The following photos are of a working valve (small spring where it belongs) taken out of service for leaking too much fuel into the vacuum chamber.







And finally, Mr. Cheap thought he could buy a used regulator from a seller who, I guess roams the California yards for them, selling them as "tested" units. I can only imagine how he tests them. Return and refund was no problem at all. I only wish the seller didn't need me to send it back; that this photo would have been enough for him, so I could dissect it and see how gross the rip in the diaphragm became to run this stream out the vacuum port! In this case, the curiosity wasn't worth $40.


--
Art Benstein near Baltimore

Never miss a good chance to shut up.

HI again Art!
Edit: hope you are ready for a long read! My mind got to rumbling!

I see now that I was correct in how they assembled the ball under that clip that you said was rolled into or crimped and not soldered down.
I mistakenly assumed that the sliver metal shining circle was solder. Never imagined that was a modified nail set tool into a chisel. I did wonder why it was not tinned yet. Just fiqured it was on the back side I think.

This blows my ideal of it having a ball and angle seating device.
That thing is made all one piece and not frozen together by rust.
I'm thinking it is resistance welded together. The way it goes together the operation is automated with zero rejects.
That hole might have been meant to be the orifice originally. Compared to the flat side opening idea it might be small.
When doing a cutoff procedure, it better to cut into a hole in the center so, that's why it still there.
I cannot help thinking that they made revisions, since the prototype, before it went into production.
The opposite side or the flat surface is the seating surface. That is a total surprise. I see the offset wear pattern you are talking about. But where is hits sure looks roughed up except for the extreme outer ring.

I my My mind, that part should be mounted on the tower coming up from the nipple attachment.
The ball would be held up against the inside of clip by the spring under it.
The ball would move into the seat diameter along with the diaphragm. All still be held in place by the movement of the tiny spring so the ball could shift and rotate. .015 is not much room for the ball to move backwards away from the clip but gas is thin.
The tiny spring would have a tiny preload to seat the ball when the engine is off. When the engine runs the vacuum pulls the whole affair backwards thus allowing outflow of fuel.
It still works that way but as one hunk! Lock to the shift ot tilt, you are talking about, caused by a warping or distorted diaphragm.
I'm not sure that the turns of the coil stacks would not provide sideways or some shift pressure. All things square, yes it's suppose too! But that's in a perfect idealistic world.

It seems to me there should be a way to adjust the main spring on the vacuum side from the outside.
If not, this might explain some of the expense if they put one together and the bar pressure amount did not meet the part number specifications or worse leaked! Not much of a positive seal. Scrap crusher!
Maybe they all do a little leaking to the tank. It would make it easier for pump start ups against a less head pressure. This explains the rest pressure leak down time allowance.

Yes I know about how diaphragms warp with gasoline.
I still own my 1971 Harley Sportster that came with a side draft Tillotson flat bottom carburetor.
I was told it was a company furnished carbs for farm tractor engines.
Well, It's was worse than that. It's the same company who makes small engine carburetors for chain saws, leaf blowers and so forth. Those carbs will run upside down though.
Ever had one of those hard to start? You will eventually and it's easier and cheaper to buy the whole thing.

This diaphragm in this particular Carburetor weighs the gas against the atmosphere outside or from underneath. Sounds good until you go in the mountains!
They did provided a main Jet mixture screw right on top to turn to lean it out. If you got it about right up high then it sputtered again down below.
Nothing like an Motocraft carbureted Ford and a Harley to fiddle with!
I'm glad I missed the 60's days of 122's and those SU's, or would I qualify to be experience matched?

Yep, the Tillotson would flood sitting, if you left the gas on or dry out if you turn the gas off.
No winning, as most of the time and there was lots of choke plate pulling to get gas to pull up.
It became a common practice for me pop the bottom off and remove the diaphragm when it got too hard to start.
To inspect you laid it on a flat surface to check the hump circle. Looking for an even rise all the way around while is was wet. Then watch as it dry off some, to see if it warped when compared to a new one! Sounds familiar to need something new.
If a dimple or pucker showed up it was throw away time.

Luckily, back then it was only a $1.30 but it was a PITA about every year.
About ten years later, Harley checked with the Smithsonian Institution for permission to change the production rituals for something besides a paint color.
They went to a Bendix made unit and a float bowl chamber carburetor.
The aftermarkets killed their parts sales for Tillotson.
I even bought my Bendix from Harley over counter as those Tillotson parts went obsolete from Harley.
I guess I couldn't buy enough of the three simplistic working parts in it, to keep them happy! (:) The accerator pump occasionally needed a leather cup riveted on a rod, an occasional needle valve and the diaphragms. Doubtful to spend over ten spot for the kit with tax. I haven't spent anything on the Bendix, that I can remember.


Thanks again for the pictures..... I'll expect failures of FPR's out of seeing this.
I doubt a metal type diaphragm would not work as well to respond to the vacuum actuation. A better material is probably available for a couple bucks more now a days. How could we ever tell (:(

The other sensor system sounds better already but complicated with special feed back pumps. I bet their made without consideration, for sure, to provide maintenance in later years. Use and recycle it.
HI again Art!

I see now that I was correct in how they assembled the ball under that clip that you said was rolled into or crimped and not soldered down.
I mistakenly assumed that the sliver metal shining circle was solder. Never imagined that was a modified nail set tool into a chisel. I did wonder why it was not tinned yet. Just fiqured it was on the back side I think.

This blows my ideal of it having a ball and angle seating device.
That thing is made all one piece and not frozen together by rust.
I'm thinking it is resistance welded together. The way it goes together the operation is automated with zero rejects.
That hole might have been meant to be the orifice originally. Compared to the flat side opening idea it might be small.
When doing a cutoff procedure, it better to cut into a hole in the center so, that's why it still there.
I cannot help thinking that they made revisions, since the prototype, before it went into production.
The opposite side or the flat surface is the seating surface. That is a total surprise. I see the offset wear pattern you are talking about. But where is hits sure looks roughed up except for the extreme outer ring.

I my My mind, that part should be mounted on the tower coming up from the nipple attachment.
The ball would be held up against the inside of clip by the spring under it.
The ball would move into the seat diameter along with the diaphragm. All still be held in place by the movement of the tiny spring so the ball could shift and rotate. .015 is not much room for the ball to move backwards away from the clip but gas is thin.
The tiny spring would have a tiny preload to seat the ball when the engine is off. When the engine runs the vacuum pulls the whole affair backwards thus allowing outflow of fuel.
It still works that way but as one hunk! I see the shift or tilt you are talking about, caused by a warping or distorted diaphragm.
I'm not sure that the turns of the coil stacks could provide some sideways pressure to do some and rubber fabrics are not suppose to have a bias or grain line direction. But that's in a perfect idealistic world.

I'm not aware of those racing regulators you mention.
It seems to me there should be a way to adjust the main spring on the vacuum side from the outside.
If not, this might explain some of the expense if they put one together and the bar pressure amount did not meet the part number specifications or worse leaked!
Maybe they all do back to the tank and explains the rest pressure leak down time allowance.

Yes I know about how diaphragms warp with gasoline.
I still own my 1971 Harley Sportster that came with a side draft Tillotson flat bottom carburetors.
I was told it was a design from farm tractor engines.
It's was worse than that. It's the same company who makes small engine carburetors for chain saws leaf blowers and so forth. Those carbs will run upside down though.
Ever had one of those hard to start? You will eventually.

This diaphragm weighs the gas against the atmosphere outside or from underneath. Sounds good until you go in the mountains!
They did provided a main Jet mixture screw on top to turn to lean it out. If you got it about right up there it sputtered again down below. Nothing like an Motocraft carbureted Ford and a Harley to fiddle with!
I'm glad I missed the 60's days of 122's and those SU's, or would I qualify as matched?

Yep, the Tillotson would flood sitting, if you left the gas on or dry out if you turn the gas off.
No winning, as most of the time it was lots of choke plate pulling to get gas to pull up.
It became a common practice for me pop the bottom off and remove the diaphragm when it got too hard to start.
You then laid it on a flat surface to check the hump circle. Looking for an even rise all the way around while is was wet. Then watch as it dry off some, to see if it warped when compared to a new one! Sound familiar?
If a dimple or pucker showed up it was throw away time.

Luckily, back then it was only a $1.30 but it was a PITA about every year.
About ten years later, Harley checked with the Smithsonian Institution for permission to change the production rituals for something besides paint color.
They went to a Bendix float bowl chamber carburetor.
The aftermarkets killed their parts sales.
I even bought my Bendix from Harley over counter as those Tillotson parts went obsolete from Harley. I guess I couldn't buy enough of the three simplistic working parts in it, to keep them happy! (:) The accerator pump occasionally needed a leather cup riveted on a rod, an occasional needle valve and the diaphragm. Doubtful to break over a ten spot for the kit with tax but I haven't spent anything on the Bendix, that I can remember.


Thanks again for the pictures..... I'll expect failures of FPR's.
I doubt a metal type diaphragm would not work as well to respond to vacuum actuation. A better material is probably available for a couple bucks more. (:(

The other sensor system sounds better already but complicated with special feed back pumps made without consideration to provide maintenance in later years. Use and recycle it when it needs spark plugs.
Motorcycles and even Volvos use to be reasonable to maintain in the day that was only a few years ago!

The industry is evolving to be different without combustion engines. That is, except for the need of greed!
The new prices, that we are extorted over, must be because our alternative is being limited even more yearly.

I was told by a parts man, in a local Volvo club I visited last week, that brakes are sixty percent of their business. They deliver to tire shops with at least a 40% markup from their supplier from the Los Angeles area. The tire shops here in town mark those parts up again by that much or more.

Consumers are now considered, by repair facilities, to be basically ignorant and will just pay what they try or want to get.
That was his feed back that he sees every day on his deliveries. He sees the stores invoices as he passes by them that are written up for their customers. Some shops get $80 to $125 an hour.

I guess what ever the industry makes to roll down a road for us, the brakes are always going to be needed. The parts stores are geared up to survive with the profit margin to support all kinds of middlemen attitudes!

Driving and owning a car has turned into a luxury fiasco. All of us are paying to much from every direction I look.
In the last two years things have gone up 25%. Antifreeze is an outright a gouge with the 50/50 helping the consumer dumb down.
Oil got into it the scheme late. First the gasoline went up and motor oil stayed at a dollar a quart on sale and with rebates. Rebates are on the low key anymore.
The synthetic oil was overpriced to begin with and still caused leaks.
In order to get it to sell the stuff both markets moved to the center.
Good for those mixing it up! Now 20/50 oil is almost off the market. Disguised as a energy conservation rally.
I figure they are taking the thicker and thinning it out.
Sounds familiar to antifreeze.
For whom, should we blame? Everybody!
As it comes on out, the end product will still be dung!

Good thing I stay off opinions page. Too political.

Done it again Art. I high jacked!

Have a nice day!
Phil

Phil, you need to get one of these and tear it apart.

I can tell you the ball is resistance welded to the disc; that the hole is there to center the ball; that the spring is used in conjunction with the ball to pivot the disc square with the valve seat against the variation from square the rubber diaphragm against the large spring in the vacuum chamber permits.

But you could see all that for yourself in a minute with the pieces in front of you instead of interpreting from my cellphone pix and poor verbalization.

Someone needs to send you a dud regulator for fun.


--
Art Benstein near Baltimore

"Don't allow nobody on deck,..." Capt. Ernest M. McSorely

Hi Art,

Yep you are right! I spent more time writing than it would take to take one of those apart.
I figure, WHAT FUN would there be in doing that. (:-)
I might have one but it looks better laying around as a possibly good one.
If I cut one open I might have to keep that spring! It's a nice one!
That FPR spring in that other half is a whole lot thicker than I imagined. Didn't see much of it before from your pictures.
In fact, you know I would. YUM!
You never know where one might fit someday. Remember... I fixed my M46 overdrive pump check valve with a orphaned spring!

Besides, I love to see your pictures! (:-) I knew how the FPR works. Thank you for showing us it's flaws.
Maybe I should try sign language on videos to help stop the spread of my poor verbalization.
How does that work if you have arthritis or stutter? Just kidding! (:-)

I guess I will have to work with what I'm dealt and follow your lead, one way or the other.

Here we go again as it helps everyone.

Phil

Thanks for this, Art. I paused my search while I sorted out an intermittent odometer. I'd hoped maybe the odometer had been doing this for some time and the poor MPG was just a "numerator" problem. Unfortunately, the odo's now ticking along again (solder joint--not the gear) and fuel mileage is as strangely bad as ever.

My next post will have a fuel pressure reading! I was surprised like Art that the FPR is so pricey. I should've stocked the shelf years ago.

Best,
joe b
pdx or

Wow, thanks Phil, this is just what I need to keep moving with purpose.

| It still could be a bad FPR [...]

Good info and does fit the symptom, which is why I pulled that vacuum hose first thing.

| You are lucky, I think, that the '93 has a fuel rail Schrader valve that a | refrigerant gauge can be put on to check the operating pressure [...]

Yep, it's got one! How stupid would it be to use a tire pen gauge for a quick check? My AC gauge set is about 3k miles away. I think Bentley has a procedure, but is there a specific test to condemn the FPR?

| Check the spark plugs to see if they are running fluffy black with carbon. | This will tell you the most.

Will report back.

| The next thing to look into is a fail Coolant thermostat [...]

I think we're good here. Thermostat is relatively new <15k (Wahler). The temp gauge was "liberated" from the comp. board, so I think we'd notice a change there.

| The next thing is the Engine Coolant Sensor for the computer [...]

A definite suspect. I'll try to test this weekend.

| If the sensors terminals get corroded or if worse it gets unplugged the
| car runs richer, like for in Alaska!

Hmmm, this is now a suspect for sure. The car spent some share of its 330k in Rhode Island...

I have confirmed no codes are set on the LH or EZK side (1-1-1).

One other thing that came to mind was an exhaust header leak ahead of the O2 sensor. I expected to find a "fuel trim" code if that were the case, but maybe not.

Thanks again, and I'll report back with more info,
joe

Joe - what kind of mileage does it normally get in similar driving situations? Just trying to understand how severe the change is. I've experienced a variation of as much as 4-5 mpg just with summer to winter fuel additive changes and more/less ethanol in the gas - this on a Honda Fit that gets somewhere between 30-37 mpg around town.

My last 3 tanks on the 242 around Charlotte were 19.9, 20.1 and 20.7. With 430HP LS3 power. So I suppose you could always lose the 2.3L and step up!

Our long-run average, mostly around town, is 19.5. Highway is usually 24-25. We've been noticing a dropoff but had been mixing in more highway miles than usual so couldn't be sure. This last tank was >2 standard deviations below the norm, so something's likely up.

We're the target market for underpowered vehicles, so no engine swap likely, though part of me misses my '77 B21F...


-joe

Please do two things for us here:

1). Check that your "Check Engine Light" actually lights and is not burned out,

2). Pull all the codes out of the OBD1 reader on the drivers side front fender. Check both positions 2 & 6. If you don't know how to do it, check that FAQ here on the brickboard.

With gas mileage like that I'd be really surprised if you DO NOT have any codes other than "111". That's not say its not Possible, but I find it highly unlikely.

Please report back so we can further help.

Regards,

Matt

Yep, I confirmed 1-1-1 in both slots. Thanks! -joe

Ok, great!

Starting looking at what MachineMan talks about.

Good luck,

Matt