posted by
someone claiming to be Das Volvo Mann
on
Sun May 28 18:37 CST 2017 [ RELATED]
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My 240 starts erradically. Sometimes it fires up and can be driven w/out problem. Other times its hard to start and when gas pedal is pushed downward it dies. It can be restarted after 5-7 attempts and then may run well or not. This rough start can occur with engine cold or hot. Coil, coil amphlifier, temp sensor, and ECU have been replaced and the engine is getting sufficient fuel.My guess is an ignition short. Help needed from those who know!
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Hi,
What about the crank position sensor? How old is it? They can get flakey and will cause erratic starting issues.
How old is the ignition cap, rotor and the wires by chance?
You should never have to push down on the gas pedal. The idle control valve is suppose to take care of proper air flow. All is done with the throttle body being clean and the throttle switch set to work for a good start and idle there after.
Check for looseness and pin holes in the accordion hose behind the AMM for good preventive maintenance.
Phil
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Check the wiring around the 25 amp fuse
--
89 240 wagon, 94 940, 215K, 94 940, 141K
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posted by
someone claiming to be Das Volvo Mann
on
Mon May 29 09:25 CST 2017 [ RELATED]
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J, thanks for feedback. 25 amp circuit runs w/or w/out fuse!!. I think this may be the reason I deduct a short being present. Should I replace the complete plastic circuit? Thanks
--
89-240, 87-240, 2002 V70T
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If your problem is in that circuit, then the short is probably in the wiring, fuse or fuseholder. I really don't understand how your car can run without the 25 amp blade fuse being there at all but then again I'm not very good with electronics...:) Hey, I once pulled the main fuel pump fuse and my car continued to run indefinitely!
Try a little diagnosing of the above parts. As I understand it, that fuse is part of the circuit to the fuel injection ECU. So, if the fuse, fuseholder and wiring have corrosion or a short the signal to the ECU can intermittently be interrupted causing a stall or a no start. As a test, try wiggling the 25 amp fuse wiring when the car is idling to see if you can make it stall out....
OBD = On Board Diagnostics
Volvo started using a basic engine code reader (OBD system) in, I believe, the 1989 240's. Not sure of the year but my 1990 had one and I know the 1989's did too. There is a small black box underhood where you can retrieve basic engine codes by inserting a small probe and pushing a button. It is a simple digital system. See Kitty's explanation above for more info or refer to Haynes or Bentley books for a more detailed explanation.
Link below is for 700/900 cars that have a similar, but a little more advanced OBD#1 system as the 240's. Reading it might help your understanding of the OBD#1 system on 240's. To illustrate further, your 2002 V70 has a different and more sophisticated OBD system. It has OBD#2 which requires a scanner to read codes.
https://www.brickboard.com/FAQ/700-900/EngineOBDCodes.htm
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posted by
someone claiming to be Das Volvo Mann
on
Wed May 31 17:58 CST 2017 [ RELATED]
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Hi J, 25 amp fuse is present and appears to be functioning as a viable connector. Have searched for fuel system relay (left side-near fuse box) and can't locate. Looks like previous owner in SC hotwired link direct to fuel pump. The pump runs constantly when key is turned on. I am struggling w/the source of my problem; electrical or fuel or combo of both? Will again check diagnostic for feedback-unit appears dead.
You're feedback is appreciated but I'm about ready to deposit this vehicle into the Detroit River!
Can you provide the wire color/#'s that feed into the fuel pump relay? Should I check for consistent fuel pressure to engine from start to running? Mucho questions I know, but I'm really struggling here. Thanks.
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posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Thu Jun 1 12:54 CST 2017 [ RELATED]
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This was mentioned above and seemingly Ignored by you
The CPS - the Crank Position Sensor ---- answers you Headline Ignition Short????
you stated the car has 275K miles ...listed all the parts you've thrown money at and did Not Mention replacing the CPS --- a known and recurrent failure (with age crumbling insulation)
but then it appears also that you have a "butchered" Volvo
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posted by
someone claiming to be Das Volvo Mann
on
Sat Jun 10 15:13 CST 2017 [ RELATED]
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No real intention to "ignore" advice, just a process of logical elimination. As parts have been replaced problem appears more discernable via deductive reasoning. No doubt this 240 has been modified by previous owner(s). Would not define condition as "butchered" as this is not an organic food source. Have recently cleaned up fuse box, but remain concerned even with Volvo now running adequately with long term potential for recurrent failure. Will take your advice on cam/crank motion sensor investigation. At present, can not locate fuel relay in denoted space. Thanks for critical feedback. DVM
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The Crank Position Sensor on your Volvo and the Hall Effect Sensor on our earlier 240s have the same function as ignition points in earlier cars. This is to break the primary circuit in the ignition coil and allow the secondary circuit to discharge the high voltage charge through the distributor cap and spark plugs into the cylinder. Any deviation, whether worn points, worn Hall sensor, or worn CPS insulation or sensor itself can cause many running problems.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Das Volvo Mann
on
Tue Jun 13 14:34 CST 2017 [ RELATED]
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S/P, thanks for info. All fuses holders have been cleaned. 25 amp seems to be an open circuit. Now with key removed fuel pump runs endlessly causing a dead battery.Can you advise where fuel relay is located. Crank sensor to be replaced shortly. Will check ignition and fuel ECU for tampering. Thanks
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Fuel Pump Relay under dash near glovebox. White in color.
Test for electrical shorts elsewhere too if fuel pump runs continuously.
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Yup. I'd be surprised if this trouble was naturally occurring.
There are two ways I can think of the fuel pumps would run all the time, both caused by someone's intervention. This is a safety issue.
1) Someone has hacked the wiring.
2) Someone futzed with the fuel relay, and didn't hang it back where it belongs, with the wires exiting to the bottom. It filled with water.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
You don't spit into the wind...
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posted by
someone claiming to be Das Volvo Mann
on
Sat Jun 17 15:23 CST 2017 [ RELATED]
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Art and all, fuel relay replaced and hung correctly on clip. Both primary and secondary pumps working with ignition on or off. Will check fuse #6. No doubt this electrical system has been fuzed with, otherwise this thing runs like a champ when operational. Please suggest remedy. CPS soon to be replaced but this seems like an unlikely source for existing problem.
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Hi,
I don't know what's happening between you and CB but it doesn't look nice. Are you are both setting at a dinner table in a Harry Potter movie? CB is pretty down to earth with simple and I would say righteous suggestions in many cases. You might want to keep him on your side.
I think from your thread statement about the 25 Amp fuse working but being an open circuit tells me you need help in electrical terminology. A Short is just exactly that! It lasts only for a short time, as it burns a fuse or its wire up! Then it's an open circuit!
Bricktank dropped you a Link to the fuel relay system. It shows you that the ICU and ECU are turning on and off the pumps. That is their sole responsibility. If your ignition key is off, then so are the two computers. They should NOT be ON either! So this definitely puts the relay in the OFF position.
If the relay is on all the time and the pumps are running, either because relay is jumped on, stuck on, or held closed internally.
I do this sometimes with a rubber band or a shoe lace to bypass the computers if I suspect one or the other is not doing its job. In such cases, a car will not run.
That may have been the PO's previous problem.
If the relay has both coils turned ON, or the contacts are closed, by any means available, the orange wire of the AMM will ON too! CHECK and see if it is ON as well, all the time!
This may tell you something.
If you pull the relay completely out, this kills both circuits. That tells you nothing.
You see, the relay handles two separate circuits. Either one is controlled independently under operational conditions but the ICU ultimately powers both coils on the red wire. The coils are grounded by the computers. The circuits are housed together and switched.
In '84 they were two separate relay boxes and you could lose only one relay due to a bad winding.
If it was the pumps relay you could switch them around because they were alike.
You turn the key and test the pumps to run when cranked. It was then, you knew the other relay was bad because now you heard the pumps running.
But Now, with the bad relay there, the injectors/AMM do not work. If You manually close that injector relay, the AMM is on and the engine will run.
Only trouble is, it's now on all the time and you won't hear it! This is Not good as you are still running the battery down.
It's better to switch it back, manually close it, to hear the pumps. Let the other injector relay be controlled.
Then what do when you get to where you need to be, you can pull the fuse or battery cable and kill everything.
Its suppose too work like that to be more Safe!
It will not take you long to get tired of that and fix it properly.
That's where you are now! Tracking down what been bypassed in relation to the color wires on the fuel system relay circuits.
Question is how it's getting power to both the injectors and pumps. Most likely jumping power to the relay red wire or figuring out the contacts are closed or bypassed using a grounding wire.
You have to think on both sides of the relay or the circuit operation as Volvo planned it.
If this all works for you, in some way, be nice to my buddies on the BRICKBOARD! (:-)
Phil
PS, If you want to see a hairy way of addressing what might be wrong with a car look at this and cringe!
https://www.volvoclub.org.uk/faq/EngineFIComputer.html#Intermittent_Stalling_Bad_ECU
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posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Sun Jun 18 19:26 CST 2017 [ RELATED]
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Phil
nothing happened. I wrote that he had "butchered" Volvo.
He responded with a quip--- "Would not define condition as "butchered" as this is not an organic food source"
Then later told of the fuel pump running even if the key was out and draining the battery. and that he was unable to locate the fuel relay or the 25amp fuse ubder the hood
My quip was listing a few cuts of meat -- "Rib Eye, Flank Steak, London Broil(not a real cut), Porterhouse, TBone..."
all in fun mate...hope it was taken as such.
as it it turned out I was wrong about the CPS.
Cheers
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Hi CB,
I went on a troll through the thread and see want you mean.
I guess I misinterpreted the "Be Gone Knave." I had to look up that last word as it seemed a little harsh and pointed.
You have to admit "Be Gone" is of course a Noble term, if envisioned with a jewelry embellished hand. My imagination worked overtime. (:-)
So, I will say it was my bad. The idea of barbaric meat scenes got to me!
Just the medievalist in me, along with some Harry Potter episodes. I still have not seen them all.
I'm one for not being a great big connoisseur of meat either. When I "Barbecue" I make hockey pucks out of everything! Well, except Hot Dogs, that is! I seem to recognize that black and curled is not right. (:-)
In the very beginning of his thread I put in a vote for the CPS too! He was having ignition or start issues before he got waylaid into pumps running and his battery going down. I still would not rule out the CPS. They can be finicky and hard to diagnose on their way out at any time.
In my last post, I tried to put my thoughts down on how I would try to find out (How?) power was getting to or past those "Black Boxes" for them to operate without the key on?
My first thought it was the fuse panel and suggested the "color bar legend" between the fuses as a place to start. It's a very convenient place to pick up power for accessories or cross up wiring that can back feed into another circuit inadvertently.
I would carefully look at any connector that looks like a splice in. Some connectors can look rather professional looking but there are those that look American made that will give themselves away if you are familiar with 3M products. Black electrical tape is less exotic. (:-)
Thanks for your feedback. I'm glad you are doing well!
Phil
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posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Thu Jun 15 01:45 CST 2017 [ RELATED]
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as previously noted and then dismissed :)))
Rib Eye, Flank Steak, London Broil(not a real cut), Porterhouse, TBone...
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posted by
someone claiming to be Das Volvo Mann
on
Sat Jun 17 15:28 CST 2017 [ RELATED]
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Consider yourself dismissed. You represent the dark side with no real meaningful solutions to existing problem. This is an electrical/fuel issue and regardless of source you offer nothing but hamburger helper. Be gone knave.
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If, while cleaning the fuse block, wires from fuse 4 (four yellow/red wires) inadvertently got hooked up to any fuse from 6 to 10, one or both fuel pumps could run continuously.
If the OP has wiring concerns, the diagram here might help.
http://volvowiringdiagrams.com/volvo/240%20Wiring%20Diagrams/Volvo%20240%201989.pdf
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Hi,
There is plenty of information and posts. Just be patient, the trouble will be found.
Here is a hint about that fuse panel, just in case you have not noticed.
There is a quick check color code. It's Right in the middle, between fuses, there is a strip of colors that relate to where wires go onto terminals.
You might want to check back and forth to see if a previous owner moved some of them around to make the pump run continuously.
The white fuel system relay runs both the fuel pumps and the fuel injectors. Just because the pumps run it does not mean the injectors are connected.
The next time it stops or won't start check for 12 volts B+ to ground on the orange wire under the rubber boot on the AMM when cranking. This checks that side of the two part relay.
That relay can drop out and work intermittently due to bad soldering joints inside it or a magnetic coil overheating. The relay should only be turned on by the ECU. This is alway after getting a cranking signal from the ICU that reads a CPS or a hall sensor on earlier cars.
Most importantly you want this right as its a safety device! It's for a case of an accident that stops the engine.
Help is on the way with the right question from your observations.
Phil
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posted by
someone claiming to be Das Volvo Mann
on
Sat Jun 10 15:36 CST 2017 [ RELATED]
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240 is now running after I cleaned and greased all fuse box circuits. I think this is a short term fix. Please define AMM and its location? Should I examine ignition ECU for corrosion? It appears previous owners rewired (by-passed) fuel relay as I can not locate this relay in designated areas. Will evaluate both ECU's and get back with you. Your expertise/advise is greatly appreciated. DVM
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posted by
someone claiming to be Das Volvo Mann
on
Sat Jun 10 15:24 CST 2017 [ RELATED]
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Phil, thanks for informative feedback. Fuse box has been thoroughly cleaned and dialectic grease added to all fittings. Volvo is running well at present but I am fearful that this is a short-term fix. Do you think cam/crank sensor is problematic? Will continue search for fuel relay. Its not on vehicle's left side near fuse box. Previous owner did whatever he/she needed to do to get this car running-lots of extraneous wires present. Again, thanks for your knowledge base on this beast! DVM
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Fuel relay is located on passenger side foot well attached to the ignition system.
The fuel relay is white.
Drop the black fiber mat that is below the glove box. You'll see there.
here is link:
http://www.volvowiringdiagrams.com/volvo/240%20Wiring%20Diagrams/Volvo%20240%201989.pdf
This link should help you follow how Volvo intended your car to be wired.
Ask more questions and well fire back answers to get this thing up and running.
Good luck!
Matt
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Yes, definitely check the wiring for the 25 amp blade fuse. These fuses were used under the hood until Volvo got smart and put the fuse inside the car beginning with the 91 models.
Let me add that you should check the wiring, fuse and specifically the fuseholder for corrosion. I had a similar issue with my old 1990 244DL which took forever to find. Replaced the fuse, cleaned and reconnected the wiring and the car would still sometimes die on the road or refuse to start. Replaced fuseholder, voila no more problems! If there is any sign of corrosion, I suggest you go ahead and replace the fuseholder. Not worth cleaning as it will probably crumble apart. I found a waterproof one at West Marine for about $8.00.
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Hi Das Volvo Mann,
In addition to the excellent guidance you have now and have yet to receive, your 1989 Volvo 240 is equipped with included engine control OBD.
Helps to know miles, and you general locale, like PA-state rusty belt with salt and snow and the corrosion it brings, or desert dry SoCally (southern CA-state) and sometimes corrosion you may have. Also, auto or manual transmission?
You write:
This rough start can occur with engine cold or hot. Coil, coil amphlifier, temp sensor, and ECU have been replaced and the engine is getting sufficient fuel.
Which ECU did you replace? Fuel injection or ignition?
In the FAQ (click FAQ at the top of each brickboard page), please review:
https://www.brickboard.com/FAQ/700-900/EngineOBDCodes.htm
You are concerned with the Bosch LH-Jetronic 2.4 (and 3.1) fuel control and emissions and also the Bosch EZK116 ignition control and related emissions.
So, for both systems, perform the procedure at the page heading, on the web page, scroll down to:
1. Diagnostic Test Mode 1: Fault Code Retrieval
1 - probe that parks with metal end in the cover hidy hole when not in use
2 - button you press as the procedure instructs
3 - blinky blinky red LED. Codes are in sets of three e.g.
about a second, not quite, between a number in a set of three,
about 1.5 seconds between a set of three fault codes.
You then record the LED blinks in sets of three numbers. And repeat the procedure to verify you have recorded all fault codes. Unless the LED blinks 1-1-1, then according to the fuel control or ignition engine control unit (ECU), no fault conditions exist. Both ECUs are very tolerant of fault conditions, and so a fault condition may exist, yet may not cause the ECU to complain.
Table 1: Bosch LH2.4 and Motronic 1.8 Fuel Injection Fault Codes (ignore the Motronic info)
https://www.brickboard.com/FAQ/700-900/EngineOBDCodes.htm#LH24FuelInjectionFault
Table 2: EZK 116 and Regina Rex Ignition Fault Codes
https://www.brickboard.com/FAQ/700-900/EngineOBDCodes.htm#EZK116IgnitionFaultCodes
Click FAQ above and discover more info pertinent to your year and model.
Please post back as to your progress and when you need more detail to help with your diagnosis. It helps to know your 1989 Volvo 240 is all aces, eventually, as a result.
Questions?
Hope that helps.
Happy Memorial Day.
Modelo MacDuffed.
--
Give your brickboard.com a big thumbs up! Way up! - Roger Ebert. 
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posted by
someone claiming to be Das Volvo Mann
on
Mon May 29 09:00 CST 2017 [ RELATED]
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Thanks for feedback. Main ECU replaced. 240 came out of S.C. No rust per se. Guesstimated mileage around 275K. Garaged. Interesting note: 25 amp fuse connection allows fuel pump to run even when removed. I have attempted to use diagnostic unit but it appears dead. What is OBD? Thanks
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... meanwhile, after a beer nap at the lair of slovenly ...
Main ECU ... well, you have two ECUs, one for fuel and one for ignition.
I'll guess the fuel injection control ECU, then? Some folks here have complained the new or some remanufactured ECUs can be a bother.
Again, automatic or manual transmission? If auto, have you tried, with parking brake on, moving the gear selector to "N" neutral, and tried starting? I mention this as the Neutral safety switch or it's position and adjustment, so I have read here. (I'm all manual transmission, I'd not futzed with an auto in sometime).
How much fuel do you have in your fuel tank?
On your dash, along the row of informative dash lights, is the "CHECK ENGINE" remain lighted when you get it running?
Not necessarily a short where + and - volts DC meet eachother in requited continuity, so the smoke escapes. Yet more so an open circuit, meaning a continuity fault, a broken wire (like the aforementioned crank position sensor machine man mention - did you look?), corrosion at a bonded contact at a connector or where the fuse in the fuse box meet the fuse holder clip either side.
NC-state features that lovely humidity. The corrosion can form in the driest desert conditions.
Got corrosion? DeoxIT! DeoxIT dielectric corrosion dissolving and inhibiting spray or grease or what have you.
(Do not confuse with the electrically conductive high current AC corrosion-inhibiting contact grease like Sanchem NO-OX-ID and Ilsco DE-OX!!!!)
As Art and other have mentioned many times, a fuse may have failed and have a micro crack in it. You can "spin the fuses", yet inspect closely as the metal strip may have a crack so small you need to use Sherlock Holmes' (Jeremy Brett TV version is best) magnifying glass.
As jwalker says. You say you removed the (normally) 25-AMP ATC fuse from the factory fuse holder. Looks something like this (as we plagiarizes teh LOL cat i-net)?
From:
http://info.europartshouse.com/tech-pages/volvo-240-tips-troubleshooting-common-part-numbers/
If you remove this fuse, and the fuel pumps are running, a prior owner may have modified the wiring. Though take care and be warned, the load side of the image fuse is connected to full battery voltage and more so, ampacity, through the junction box and is hot at all times. To be safe, before you futz with it, you will want to disconnect the battery cables from the posts.
We do have wiring diagrams, if simple line art illustrations ....
http://www.volvowiringdiagrams.com/
Look at the 240 directory.
And download the 1989 PDF.
We no longer have k-jet.org ... and I was too stupid to retrieve the factory green manual PDFs when I had a chance. volvowiringdiagrams could put them up ...
Yet before you go all in, even though solving why the fuel pumps work with the 25-AMP removed, it is best to follow the suggestions you already have here.
Didja take a look at the crank position sensor (CPS)? A fault there would cause intermittent no-start as many threads treat the CPS as a possible no start issue.
With engine OFF and with the key in and turned to dash lights ON, you access the OBD box cover, withdrew the metal ended probe, insert the probe into
-socket 2 (fuel control)
-socket 6 (ignition)
Press the button for a full second or so. And did the red LED blink back when you pressed it?
I'm tryin' to think, but nuttin' happened.
Anyhoo, as machine man indicates, the CPS, look like this:
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/volvo-reference-sensor-rpm-240-740-760-780-940-271949
FCP Euro is nearest you. Bougicord is OEM. Best to have a few on the shelf and maybe in the trunk as Bougicord does not make them like they used to. Art mentioned another brand that appeared every bit the better quality yet I forget.
Your battery is about fully charged and is charging when the engine runs. Do you have a decent multimeter?
So as a checklist (and I'll miss a thing to check, I'm sure):
- Look for the CPS cable. Best to see it from the left and drive passenger (car right side, hood up, at the space between the bulkhead firewall and the rear of the engine block. Insulation peeling away? See a silver foil, or worse, no foil at all.
Image from Art Benstein's cleanflametrap.com found on a turbobricks thread.
Thread:
http://forums.turbobricks.com/archive/index.php/t-300242.html
- Try a start in neutral. Any diff?
- inspect fuses in fuse box. You can spin the fuses in the fuse holder clips.
Found Art's fuse and related electrics article through search and not his website homepage.
http://cleanflametrap.com/emfuse.html
- Check the OBD. Write this for OldDuke to try as he has a persistent "CHECK ENGINE" on.
https://www.brickboard.com/RWD/volvo/1645738/220/240/260/280/obd_diagnostics.html
Both socket six ignition and socket two fuel.
- There does exist the issue with the fuel injection system relay. An elderly relay may have faults. As well detailed here on this and other forums, the fuel injection relay can form cracks in the PC board solder welds.
Is ... useful info
https://www.ipdusa.com/techtips/10081/top-10-common-issues-with-volvo-240-models
So, you can find this relay in the passeneger (car right side) foot well under the piece of felted soft thing where it secures to the bulkhead firewall with the three plastic twisty clips. Some would prise the cover from the connector end and slide it out and with your magnifying lens or jeweler's loupe inspect the solder welds. Or buy new.
Volvo PN 3523608.
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/volvo-fuel-pump-relay-white-240-740-760-780-940-3523608
Shown is made by KAE.
Following is made by Stribel - OEM
https://www.ipdusa.com/products/5832/104561-fuel-pump-relay-240-700-900
FCP Euro should have it, also.
See:
https://www.brickboard.com/FAQ/700-900/EngineFuelinjection.htm
How is the AMM / MAF? Though you say engine is receiving fuel.
No issue on your 240 with a radio suppression relay.
A sloppy checklist, indeed.
If none of these work to help with diagnosis and resolution, though other will have useful info I forget about,
I worry that you tried the OBD with no response.
It may also be a problem if a prior owner modded the wiring. On Art Benstein's cleanflametrap.com someplace is an article about moving the >1990 model year 25 amp engine control system fuse to inside the passenger compartment.
Images would help to see what you're discussing.
Questions?
Hope that helps, yet some rather sloppy help on my part, here.
MacDuffy's Tavern in the Den of teh LOL Cat Slovenly.
--
Give your brickboard.com a big thumbs up! Way up! - Roger Ebert.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Das Volvo Mann
on
Tue Jun 13 14:23 CST 2017 [ RELATED]
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Kitty,m-man,Art,and all contributors, These last messages will take me some time to digest. After cleaning all fuses including 25 amp problem seems to have disappeared (only to show up perhaps at a later time?).The fuel pump now runs even when key is removed which leads to a very dead battery. I plan on searching for fuel relay on passenger side (to investigate/replace) and replacing crank sensor (looks ratty). Will get back with you all shortly after trying suggested remedies.You guys/gals are a great resource. From one slovenly to another!
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