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Looking for a little help with this issue i've been having with my 92 240 Wagon. Just acquired this in the past month and generally it runs really strong just have an issue with it starting up every now and then.
It seems like a fairly repeatable problem, so hoping that helps narrow it down. I searched around and it seems people have had this issue before but various cures (none of which i've tried have worked yet).
Here's a link to the video showing it struggle to start (description below):
[url]https://youtu.be/Gdn4NOGocnQ[/url]
Issue:
If the car sits for a few hours (not sure what the minimum time is here), it will generally fire up right away.
After firing the car up right away, if I drive it for a little bit then turn it off and try to turn it on again shortly after (anywhere about an hour or less roughly) it will start but seems very weak when it turns over. After a couple of starts in a short period of time it sputters as shown in the video. If I give it a tiny bit of gas when starting it will turn over.
In the video attached:
0:00 - first click is me turning the key to Position II, waiting for the fuel relay to click
0:05 - turn the key and hold for ~2 seconds to start (here's the sputtering sound)
Here's what i've done to the car in the past month:
- Oil change (Mann fill, 10w30)
- new distributor cap, plugs (all gapped correctly), and cables
- new air filter, cleaned MAF
- new stribel fuel pump relay
- added Techron fuel system cleaner
A friend mentioned it could be dirty or leaky fuel injectors (hence the Techron -- just added it yesterday don't know how long it would take to see any results if it works).
I read a few different threads and people mentioned changing out the fuel pressure regulator, crank position sensor, or even the ignition amplifier. Are any of these worth trying given the symptoms shown here?
I have a new fuel pump and filter as well just need some time to install them.
Thanks for your help!
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If the pattern is
- easy start + smooth running after sitting overnight
- Hard start + rough running after sitting 15 minutes - ~2 hours
I'd suspect bad FPR and/or leaking injector(s).
Drive it home; let it sit 5 minutes; inspect the FPR vacuum hose for gas smell / liquid. Pull a spark plug.
--
240 drivers / parts cars - JH, Ohio
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measure the fuel pressure from the schrader valve under rail between 1 and 2 cylinders.
if that comes up to spec during cranking and running then test you coil as it sounds like a failing coil.
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I don't know if I'd look at the Fuel Pressure regulator , the Crank sensor or the Amplifier yet.
What you missed with your tune up was to clean both the Throttle Body and the Idle control module. The butterfly in the throttle body does NOT seat when foot is off the gas. So if the Butterfly and inner of the throttle body are dirty it will act as though it is seated. My thinking is...When engine is cold, you might get away with a bit Richer condition by having the throttle body sealed but with engine warm the sealed throttle body might flood it a bit. Then you give it gas, open the seal and it starts.
Idle control valve might be lazy and again lets you start in a richer condition. If nothing else. You cleaned them for the price of a can of Carb cleaner/ Throttle body cleaner.
Just for giggles, take off the front hose of the Fuel Pressure Regulator(the one with no clamps holding it). make sure there is no gas in that hose. If there is, then the Regulator is Bad and raw gas is following that hose into the Intake manifold. Once again forcing a Rich condition that a hot engine wont like.
If you need details on how to clean these things, write back and let us know
--
'75 Jeep CJ5 345Hp ChevyPwrd, two motorcycles, '85 Pickup: The '89 Volvo is the newest vehicle I own. it wasn't Volvos safety , it was Longevity that sold me http://home.lyse.net/brox/TonyPage4.html http://cleanflametrap.com/tony/
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Tony,
Finally got enough time to check and service these items.
First, I pulled the front hose off the FPR -- no hint of any gas, so likely that part isn't the culprit.
Next, I had to order a gasket for the throttle body and pick up a can of CRC throttle body spray. Took it off and yep, it was just caked in gunk and the gasket seemed like it was on its last legs if not slightly leaking. I cleaned it up top to bottom, replaced the gasket, connected everything back up and it seems to be much better overall.
I haven't been able to test it extensively yet, but so far I have not had any trouble getting it to start up like I showed in the video. I'm going to test it a bit more this week and report back.
Also, I don't know if this is normal but when I disconnected the throttle body sensor/cable there was a tiny bit of liquid in there -- nothing moving around but you could tell by looking at it that there was a visible sheen of liquid present. I cleaned all of that up, but is it possible that cable and or sensor could be damaged now?
Thanks for all your help so far!!
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It's possible there may be damage but what I have found with bad or disconnected Throttle positioning sensors is that the engine RPM tends to float and not respond quickly. For instance, you take your foot off the Gas and the engine slowly finds it's way down to an idle and wonders a bit as it works it's way down. I would think your TPS is OK.
Sounds like you didn't venture down to the Idle Control Valve? It probably would not cause a No Start situation but it's easy to get to with the Throttle body out of the way.
I'm surprised you had to replace that sad excuse of a gasket. They are super thin but I have not had issues when separating Throttle body from Intake Manifold.
I know I mentioned those tiny holes in the throttle body.. did you get the spray to spray thru those holes and out the Brass nipples? IF you didn't make that a point , then I suggest you remove the Nipples and spray down into those holes. The holes are NOT centered in the nipple so spraying down the large hole in the nipple usually will not clear those tiny holes.
Speaking of those brass nipples..... The Hose that attaches to the smaller nipple tends to clog too. If you can't blow or run a wire through it, replace it.
I hope your longer road testing proves that you got it fixed
fingers crossed
--
'75 Jeep CJ5 345Hp ChevyPwrd, two motorcycles, '85 Pickup: The '89 Volvo is the newest vehicle I own. it wasn't Volvos safety , it was Longevity that sold me http://home.lyse.net/brox/TonyPage4.html http://cleanflametrap.com/tony/
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Tony,
Good to know about those TPS symptoms. I haven't had any issues with engine RPM floating or not responding, so likely it's okay like you said.
I did not check out the Idle Control Valve -- slipped my mind unfortunately. If I go back and check it out, what should I look for or clean and inspect/replace?
Yeah, the old gasket looked like it had liquid running down the side, so i'm guessing it wasn't doing it's job anymore. Who knows how long that one had been on there :)
Yes! I did get to clean out both of the tiny holes in the throttle body. Removed the brass nipples and cleaned them out. Did not check the hoses but i'll go back then and do so just for good measure.
I've been driving it a lot the past week with multiple starts and have not seen this problem again since I cleaned everything. Fingers crossed, but I think it's all better :)
Also! I checked the FPR after running the car and letting it sit for a few minutes. No liquid or anything like that at the end of the hose, so likely that area is okay...for now.
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https://www.brickboard.com/RWD/volvo/1643178/220/240/260/280/help_needed_1992_240_wagon_struggling_start_warmsitting.html
I gave a brief description down low in this post.
any other questions.. just let me know
--
'75 Jeep CJ5 345Hp ChevyPwrd, two motorcycles, '85 Pickup: The '89 Volvo is the newest vehicle I own. it wasn't Volvos safety , it was Longevity that sold me http://home.lyse.net/brox/TonyPage4.html http://cleanflametrap.com/tony/
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Tony great insight thank you! I have the Haynes and Bentley service manuals I'll take a look. Generally though how should I attempt to clean the throttle body and idle control valve or the proper way to do this. Trying to learn best practices as I work on this car.
I'll check out that hose on the FPR and report back! Thanks for your help!
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Most thorough way is to take them off the Engine. Tooth brush , rag and Carb Cleaner will get you there. Taking off Throttle Body: You can use a Box wrench on 2 of the three Nuts. The third one that is very close to the Throttle positioning sensor (Little Plastic black box with connector going to it). That third one I am able to get to with an open end wrench that I ground down one side a bit.
Use small screwdriver to pop the little lock on the Linkage.
Clean the Barrel of the Throttle body, clean the Brass Butterfly and spray and blow out the two tiny holes you will see in the barrel.
Disconnecting the Harnesses from the Throttle positioning sensor and Idle Control Valve.... The Metal wire on the connector, just push in (toward the harness). No pulling it off or twisting.
Idle control. Easier to get to when the throttle body is removed. It will slip out of the Rubber mount. If memory serves, I disconnected the rear hose and left it there but left the forward hose on and just pulled it all out of the mount and up. Take the hose off after you get it out. There is a Flapper in there as you look in the side hose opening. that flapper should move freely. That is what you are trying to clean. Hold the Throttlebody so the Connector is up. you don't want the Carb cleaner to run toward the solenoid at the connector. you can add 12V and ground to that little connector to make sure the flapper jumps easily after it's clean.
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'75 Jeep CJ5 345Hp ChevyPwrd, two motorcycles, '85 Pickup: The '89 Volvo is the newest vehicle I own. it wasn't Volvos safety , it was Longevity that sold me http://home.lyse.net/brox/TonyPage4.html http://cleanflametrap.com/tony/
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posted by
someone claiming to be Ray S
on
Sat Feb 25 22:04 CST 2017 [ RELATED]
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Go to the top left hand corner of this page FAQ. This pertains to the Volvo 740, but many of the systems are identical, ie. throttle body. FAQs gives many sections. Locate "Keep it rolling, preventive maintenance". Once in here you'll find a link to how to clean the throttle body. A good place to start and tons of other helpful information.
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A paradox, these systems.
How many miles on your 1992 240 Wagon? Auto or manual transmission?
No CHECK ENGINE dash light on, then? Have to ask. I'll guess no.
Full fuel tank or less than half full? In your video, the fuel gauge show low, yet the video duration and the time you have the key to ON without engine running does not indicate a full or empty tank. If the fuel tank is half full or less, a problem inside the fuel tank can be a cause.
Use a small, light keychain. As light as you dare. Weigh down that keychain, and the Volvo 240 (well, any) ignition lock and electrical contacts underneath will balk, eventually. An fyi.
I saw your post on the facebook Volvo 240 Fan Club group page with the videos. I'm one of the folks that responds to posts that suggests if the poster is in North America or that reads / writes English there to use the:
https://www.brickboard.com/RWD/
Glad you are here. Välkommen.
To help you anecdotally ...
I usually start with the dry stuff in a no start or rough running, poor fuel economy, like the OBD, engine control wire harness, power and ground electrics.
I tend to unconsciously presume good wires, cap, rotor, plugs (proper gap). And fail to suggest looking at these as a part of diagnosis. You mention you have done so. I was reminded in a prior thread I replied to as the OP mended the issue with a fix to ignition wires or spark plug or cap and rotor.
Closely inspect and spin the fuses in the fuse box. You are in rust belt PA-state, so corrosion of the sheet metal and in the electrics is a concern to keep after.
You have a new fuel pump relay.
Easy enough to use a good tire pressure gauge on the fuel rail Schrader valve with the fuel pumps, not the engine, running for fuel pressure. Find the info on how to do that. I guess you have. One test for fuel pumps is to listen for them while, with a full charge in the battery, and Art first mention this, feel the fuel pulsing at the rubber fuel return down stream of the fuel rail. Hear the in-tank fuel pump with the fuel fill cap off briefly. Hear the main fuel pump under the North America driver side rear seat. A nice heart hum, or do you hear something upset bees in a jar? You need both pumps.
Yet it runs. And quits. You wait, it sits, and it starts. In the no start condition, run the pumps with the engine off. Do they both run? Can you hear them?
As some mild cold temps have returned, electrical components do heat, yet in greater contrast to like that of summer. Intermittent faults persist in cold, also. So, an intermittent fault can be magnified in ambient winter cold as it is in Summertime extreme heat.
Please heed all guidance you have here in response to your post.
I'll imagine your new to you 1992 Volvo 240 Wagon / Estate was run on regular mineral oil, so, if the engine is caked in oil and grime, you may want to inspect the PCV (positive crankcase ventilation) function. At least check the PCV by blowing through the hose that secures to the big accordion style hose between the MAF and the throttle body (TB) as you mean to clean the TB. Mind the small hose that secures between the flame trap assembly and the air intake manifold. You should plug the small hose at the manifold end, blow through the PCV hose and air should come out oil fill cap that you have loosed, set ajar, or removed. Conversely, restore the oil fill cap and blow hard, and it should be nearly impossible to exhale though the PCV and into the engine oil sump. Only mention as a clear, yet sealed PCV helps, yet won't cause a no start.
While you inspect the TB and follow the other's guidance in response to your post, please check the air induction (or intake) system for faulty vacuum hoses and such. The big accordion hose between the AMM (or MAF) and the TB can chafe against the inner fender or anything draped on it. Using light sources somehow, check for cracks or leaks. Also, as you opened the air filter box for a new filter, please be mindful of the air filter box flap valve. You probably know of the flap valve controlling thermostat that fails to hot only. That can fry it after a hot PA-state summer.
I'll guess you've check the OBD. The Bentley and (1997 and final imprint) Haynes have the procedure and the codes for the two sets of OBD codes you may encounter.
https://www.brickboard.com/FAQ/700-900/EngineOBDCodes.htm
For brickboard members, take a gander at the Volvo 240 fan club:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/Volvo240Club/
The Volvo 240 enthusiasm is great as are all the images. The advice on help-requesting post, at times, not so good, or worse.
There is also a Brickboard facebook page started by John Sergeant (I guess) some time ago named Brickboard.com Volvo Owner Group
https://www.facebook.com/groups/192528994099443/
Hope that helps.
Not Scabies, yet is Cellulitis, MacDuff.
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Ahh! Great to see you again :)
This 92 wagon has 197,750 miles and has an automatic transmission.
There is no check engine light present on the dash and I believe all the dash bulbs are working properly.
I don't remember how much gas was in the tank at the time -- likely half or slightly less. The gauge on my wagon starts below Empty when the car is off and will slowly rise to where it is as the car warms up -- normal?
I try to keep my keychain as light as possible but that's good to make note of.
I have checked most of the fuses and all contacts seem okay -- not corrosion or rust. I also cleaned up all the electrical grounds in the front of the cabin currently. Working on the rest as I go. Thankfully this car has very minimal if any rust to be seen -- a rarity in this region hah!
I have not checked the fuel pressure -- unsure how to do that and what i'll need to measure it.
I believe I can hear both pumps clicking and running okay of I power them up with the engine off, but I will listen closely next time I am troubleshooting.
Great advice on checking the PCV, intake system, and air filter flap valve. I will inspect these items further! thank you!
I have not checked the OBD codes recently, the last time I did (~a month ago), nothing was coming up.
Thanks again for your help!
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