I have 1991 Volvo 240. Car cranks good but not starting. Changed new fuel filter. in tank fuel pump strainer is new. Changed all fuses. Checked the timing belt in good condition. Turning crank bolt clockwise it rotates cam.
Ok...?
Anil, what is your point to be here on the Brickboard.
You quoted exactly what I was telling is not going to prove anything because we are working with cars wiring.
I have learned this from one of Art's post.
You are copying my mistake that is not possible to help without any meters. So just shut the hood and forget we met.
It appears to me keep insisting on not reading and responding to all the information in the thread from everyone. Nothing is changing and the quick fix you want is not possible.
Either follow the post from Art with the date I copied into one of my post or leave the hood shut.
Without following all the suggestion and directions or you are done!
It appears we are spinning our wheels with empty dialogue passing back and forth. The car you are working is not going to roll again with that ignition system.
I'm truly sorry the thread has gone on this long without you learning how to trace down the problem.
Get someone to help you go through the thread. He or she needs to have some experience and tools working on cars or Volvos.
I had a no-start when it was time to get home. Tried several times, no starts again, and said "just get me home". The 240 thought a about it while I waited a short 5 min and it started up and ran fine for the 5 mile trip home. It was a good thing it wouldn't start again so I didn't have to chase a phantom.
For a cruel punishment the 1992 244 just had to wait until I was ready find the problem, about two weeks. Not wanting to get dirty I started looking for the fuel pump relay. The 240 fuel pump relay, from what I read everywhere was clipped to the interior passenger firewall, up high right in the middle with neon arrows pointing to it. What, not there, no neon arrows pointing to it? It took a few times looking for it and determined everyone was wrong. It is mounted on one of the two ECU units, bound by a bracket built into the ECU mounting.
Searched for known good one and installed a resoldered unit found in the 1993 940 glove compartment. Fired right up.
Resoldered the old 240 relay but I had doubts because of one of the discolored coil windings. Did not work out.
Keep a spare relay in the glove compartment and it is not over cautious to resolder a new Strible or aftermarket relay.
Do you have spark from the coil wire?
Pull that wire from the distributor and lay it next to a strut tower stud but not touching it. About 1/4 " away is usually good.
Crank the engine and you should see a white & red to bluish spark jump to the stud.
If no spark suspect the Crank Position Sensor (CPS) to be bad. This is located behind the engine head. Check for a frayed cable or corroded connector.
You have to have spark after that.
You should have heard the fuel pumps stop running right after you stop cranking the engine around.
When you first turn the key on they will run for a moment. This is from the ECU only. Not the following relay as they are separate.
If you are not hearing them then this leads to the System relay being bad. It is located under the glove box on the back wall. It controls running the pumps and turning on the injectors for fuel to cylinders.
If you hear the pumps and have spark it still may not run if one half of the relay is not working or the injectors are not getting grounded by the ECU for some reason or another.
This is getting you down to the far end of the troubleshooting trail.
At this point you need to spray starting fluid into the intake vacuum ports.
If it sputters to run and stops then it's a fuel supply issue to the injectors or they are not opening.
From here you need to post back for more information.
I will hope you will tell us, in bold letters of the subject line, "FOUND IT!"
(:-)
Phil
Phil
Both the CPS and that relay are the number one "no start" candidates.
I tested with test light on ignition coil terminals while Key is at ON position.
The test light bulb gives light at both terminals of ignition coil.
Than I placed the ignition coil wire removed from distributor and placed next to strut stud with little gap and crank the engine. I did not see any spark.
BoxVolvo is logical stepping through the areas of problems in an order of probability and it makes sense too. I think he may have been there and done that.
The FLAKY CPS idea is a good possibility.
I was wondering if you have been visiting with the pictures and the words from Art's posts.
In particular the one posted by Art Benstein on Tue Nov 29 20:34 CST 2016.
His approach is two fold.
I would do the second picture first since you are familiar with working out there with the PS.
He is wanting to read a wire looking for a signal from the ICU that the CPS triggers with the cars systems.
He uses the LED test light not an incandescent on a wire for a reason.
You can get them a Walmart and are rather inexpensive. Less than $10 if I remember correctly.
It is also a high impedance instrument. Meaning, It does not load the signal circuit and draw too much current from the electronics involved as I mentioned above.
Study the wires he is talking about and remember he is saying, a term of "back probing" the connector when he says "loose or not."
These are a fast a dirty instruments, like a gun fighter uses "because" it gets the job done.
A good gun fighter will use any gun available, even if it's not his favorite. Tom Seleck stated that in "Quigley Down Under." A point made well in the movie.
Study this one well!
The FIRST picture is Manual testing the Power Stage by using a incandescent test light to make a signal as if it were coming from the ICU to that Power Stage. It is an operational test and you are powering things up.
This can be dangerous but Art has his stuff together in one holster or in electronics a black box.(:-)
You have stated using one of these that maybe you made yourself. Notice his bulb size as in this case size might matter for a current limiter.
Its just a word of caution from someone who may not know as much as he should and IS a real work in progress. (:-)
He is very clear that he does not want full current from the battery going into the Power Stage or feeding back down ANY WIRE! As this can burn things up elsewhere. He is specifically pointing out that the gray wire of pin 5 and it going towards the ICU not just coming from it. It's suppose to be a one way street only!
Just make sure you either "undo" the connector from the ICU that's in the car, on the firewall up high or remove the gray wire from the Power Stage connector in the test.
There is one advantage to doing this, as it can brighten the pins on the ICU if there is a connection problem from corrosion from a water leak in the past. Something to think about with all used cars let alone those that don't start.
Also learning how to remove terminal from a connector is valuable experience. Corrosion can run deep in tiny places.
You will need a narrow thin blade of something like, a precision flat screwdriver, to push down a click tab that sticks up on the terminal. The tab grabs a molded notch on the inside of the connector. One has to look, with a bright light, to locate a path to the tab to insert the blade into.
Upon putting it back, you carefully and gently bend it back up. Insert it until it clicks or cannot not pull back out. This is real handy on the infamous AMM connector.
Remember, I said you will gain skills sets working on your own car with the Brickboard.
Hang out here, like a tab on a terminal, you'll catch onto something yet!
I removed the original wire from Negative terminal of ignition coil and placed my wire and other end of this wire grounded. Ignition wire placed closed to strut stud. The Key is On position. I tried to remove my wire from negative terminal of ignition coil and touch it again. I did not see any spark between coil wire and strut stud.
I have to say, you are making me sorry that I ever mentioned or open the Pandora box per say.
It was not right for me to short cut the use of proper trouble shooting techniques on this car when I did not completely understand that this car is not a 1960's car or motorcycle.
I sure wish you would just forget trying my idea of just swaping around wires and get with the present program of following the posts that have been very descriptive on how to trouble shoot your car. The information is all in this thread you started a long time ago.
The power stage and the way in is wired into the coil circuit, does not work the way as I described for you to check. To make it worse we are not using instruments to help us.
When I actually tried to do the experiment, as I suggested, I used a separate coil straight to the battery. I got a meager or weak spark to jump from the coil wire.
The Power Stage plays a more important part in getting the higher voltage up in this car.
I have learned better from our own Uncle Art Benstein posts.
Another thing in one of his posts is he has never found a power stage to be defective.
If you look for this information it's in this thread already and he states most of the time it's a connection issue there or elsewhere.
In your case, you are saying that you removed the ground from the coil that goes through the harness and back to the power stages grounding point.
So this method you are trying, in our way of thinking, leaves voltage coming into the coil from the ignition switch, when it is on.
If this was so and if you had a voltmeter or a test light, you could tell us if it was true or not. A clue would be nice.
If you have current "really there" and if you substituted your "own" ground wire back to the negative post you should at least have a spark. In that would be only a 12 volt one, just to the coils terminal and to the ground wire.
Current should have flowed through the primary side of the coil. This should put a magnetic field in there. When disconnected that field should collapse in to the secondary and spark the coil wire to ground. That how it is suppose to work.
Do we both get that, yes!
In reality, I was shown, a weak one. Why not more? Because, I did not understand the complete purpose of a condenser.
In our case a 1991 Power Stage. It must be the way of controlling the discharge and apparently it is modified.
It's not just a opening a blank wire or having a condenser protecting breaker points from arcing on older coils. These coils must be made different to put out more spark or a better spark dwell.
It's a 125 year old technology that has evolved from the 60's only a wee bit coil wise with better controllers.
We are working with the cars unknown condition of the system. Bets are going down on a losing here.
You have no meters and know nothing about how the system on how it's suppose to work according to the designers.
In my bench experiment, I knew I was sparking in places I was suppose too with 4.5 amperes worth going in. Can you say that, No!
So no meters, no safe to use test lights and now it's down to "A Guess and By Golly " post again! (:-(
Who knows what wrong where? With that I will use a mathematical term of analogy, you and I, are doing the "Square One" thing! (00.000)
You can only help yourself by reading over the posts from Art and doing what he SHOWS YOU.
If you need that test light get one. I'm sure a multimeter is a even a better choice as I cannot do a thing without one. Trust me it's not that tough to learn about.
Until you do these things, you and I, as a couple guys, trying to fix "your" car are losing out.
The Board is only as good as the users and players. You decide how you want to play, not me.
As I said before, "The information is all in this thread you started a long time ago."
I did exactly what you said to test ignition coil.
"This is the SECOND METHOD of which, might be simpler, does not rule out the cars other wiring issues like above. You need to find out the same thing above but with the key "on" in the second position.
You will need only to have the number (15) + terminal hooked up on the coil from the cars original wiring. Take all the others off number (1)- side.
Now ground the coil as before and it should still spark everytime you remove the grounding wire because now you are powering the coil from the cars battery through the ignition switch."
Hi Anil,
Jeez are you dense or what? You made me say that.
I'm telling you that I found out from Art that it will not work because the Power stage is an "integral" part of the coil firing system.
When I tried, what I told you to do, it was all I could get from the coil was an occasional weak spark out the distributors lead to the stud.
I also said I used a direct connection to my battery. Totally circumventing the cars electrical system.
Art knew this and had me do what I suggested to you so I can correct my ways!
Now if you want to blame me for the troubleshooting technique not working, Ok, I can accept that.
I have big shoulders so climb on.
But one thing I'm not going to do is carry you around so you can point at me for all your troubles.
I will also say, "I never told you to jump out there and buy any Power Stage device."
That is on you. Your method and desire for a quick fix, got you!
Another thing that is on you is NOT having the proper tools to use in diagnosing this problem.
YOU have all the help from almost 50 posts that has been is yelling out " get a meter or testing devices."
All of this whole affair is over your head and beyond you capabilities to figure this out is now my conclusion.
You need to get help from a school course or a mechcanic. You need a one on one dialogue with a person in real time.
I don't know your age but if you are in high school find a school that offers automotive classes.
If you are older, try local community colleges in your area. Most are nearly free to residents in most states. There is no excuse not to pick up education or internet knowledge in this country.
Going back and forth with me is a good thing as you are keeping me busy. I think I can appreciate that as I ask for it. I have time and I do waste a lot but this is not fixing this car.
If I were your neighbor I would have figured this out a lot sooner.
Trust me I would only lead to a point and not fix your car for you.
I would make you do all by mostly thinking it through. asking the right questions from DOING like Art did to me! It's the best way as it sinks in until the light in the brain comes on. I have seen some hard students eyes light up when it hits them.
It's how life is suppose to work. The amount of work put in equals the pleasure of what comes out on the other side.
If and when YOU get the car running it will carry you and your family around. That's pride of accomplishment.
It's simple, as you are responsible for what you get.
You choose.
So get with the program here for the Brickboarder's efforts, get local help or sell the car.
So, you have power to the coil (determined from the successful test of both the #1 and #15 terminals) but no spark. There are six possibilities, starting with the least likely.
1. Bad ignition computer. Very unlikely. Almost non existent rate of failure.
2. Bad coil. Your test showed that the primary winding is intact. Coils almost never go bad, and when they do, there are usually notable symptoms, like smoke or a burning odor.
3. Broken timing belt. You tell us that the cam is turning, Strike this one.
4. Bad #6 fuse. You mentioned that you replaced this. To be sure, ground your test light, key in the KP II position, and probe both sides of the #6 fuse holder. Should light both times. If not, try cleaning, replacing, etc.
5. Bad power stage (aka ignition amplifier.) You just replaced this one.
6. Bad or failing crankcase position sensor, or CPS. Most likely cause. Wet plugs should have eliminated this as a possibility, but I can imagine a scenario where an intermittent failure would let the fuel system initialize, but not provide a spark consistently, Unfortunately, no easy test for this one. I'm not a big fan of throwing parts at a problem, but you seem to have eliminated the other likely causes.
I didn't include jumped timing, because explaining how to determine would be difficult.
Socket 2 for fuel & socket 6 for ignition. Per the description on the FAQ page link, unless you receive blink code of 1-1-1 indicating no fault codes, repeat the procedure until you receive no new fault codes.
Fuel injection relay.
You can change all fuses, yet you can have corrosion where the wire harness terminates (connects) at the backside of the fuse panel. A slight wiggle can renew connection. Yet the wire terms can be frail and can brake off. So, have spares and a crimping tool.
Another other folks smarter than me can provide guidance.
Oh, yeah. Your earlier thread with a similar problem:
https://www.brickboard.com/RWD/volvo/1636686/220/240/260/280/starts_good_stalls_1_second_240_immediately_start.html
Yet the cause may be something completely different.
Happy Sat-Your-Day.
MacDuff.
-- Give your brickboard.com a big thumbs up! Way up! - Roger Ebert.
Today I replaced new Bosch distributor cap and rotor and new fuel pump relay.
Still it cranks good and not starting.
Spark plugs are wet I cleaned and installed. I do not know how to test spark.
May be I have to buy spark tester. Door Lock relay is bad but it will not stop starting the car.
You have concluded that the system relay is working because the plugs are getting fuel because they are wet. This means the pumps must run and the injectors are firing to get it to them.
SINCE all that is happening this means the CPS is functioning towards the ECU.
The failure has to be from the ICU outwards. The ICU tells the ECU to turn things on so we will assume that at least one half is working, if there are halves and I never heard anything on that.
So let's leave the CPS alone but they are failure prone to intermittently working or getting things firing at the wrong times.
So that leaves either the coil being bad or not getting power to the coil to operate it.
In operation, One side of the coil gets grounded by the power stage amplifier that is located behind the cars battery on a harness connection.
The Power Stage is a middle man. It's an electronic relay that carries a heavier amount of current outside of the body of the ICU. It fits between the down side of the coils primary winding.
It controls current going through the coil to energize the coil on and when it shuts off (opens) the current flow this causes the magnetic field in the coil to collapse. It replaced old breaker points since there is no arcing.
When this happens, the current, that was there crosses into the secondary winding of the coil and this fires the spark plugs on the far end.
The reason to have a voltmeter is to check for 12 Volts on a terminals of the coil when the ignition switch is on in position Two and also position Three, while cranking. It's rare that the ignition switch fails but in can in different ways.
If you have power on the terminals from the ignition switch the problem can lie with that middle man not working or not communicating with the ICU.
It is this guys harness connector that may need servicing and most importantly, the ground wire that comes off the connector harness and goes to the cars fender a few inches away.
The base of the PS may need new heat sink coating in the near future as well but it should work if the connections are restored. The coating goes under the component that is held by two screws on the base. The base is made of aluminum and is a heat absorber only. It's really needed during summer months with high under the hood temperatures.
Overall, in many of these cases on the board, some owners have only cleaned these connection and it starts working. It will serve you best to inspect and apply some di-electric/anti-corrosion ointment to all pins and grounds over the whole car, headlights to taillights.
Grounds are more important than the attention get.
Sometime it's the simplest things that will put bumps and marks on your butt!
Massage this ignition area well about every ten years, unless, you live in salt country, then you are left to do the best you can, sooner. (:)
I hope this fills in spaces that you have questions about. Post back as others have been there and done this before and you are not the last. Your findings help everybody's cars.
As long as the end of the coil wire was less than a 1/4" from bare metal and there was no spark, you could take the electrical connector on and off several times to clean the contacts. Spray the contacts with an electrical contact cleaner. Check the contacts in the connecter and make sure none of them have been pushed back in the connecter and no longer making contact. If you have a spare power stage swap it in and see if it starts.
I cleaned the contacts of ignition amplifier and connector has only 5 pins and amplifier has 6. I also cleaned the connections of ignition coil. I do not have spare power stage. Still no spark. Should I buy new power stage?.
Its a ignition amplifier. this ignition amplifier(0227100124) has 6 pins but electrical connecter has 5. its all original. I ordered new Bosch amplifier for $67 from FCPEURO.
Thank You
Should you buy another Power Stage, new or used if that's your question?
It's like Pagda said one is as good as another if they both work.
My question is did you ever check for power at the coil terminals with a meter or even a test light with the ignition switch on?
You can test the coil manually.
There are two ways to do this.
This will depend on how comfortable you are with different methods.
You can apply power to the coil "directly from the battery" and it should create a spark when you take the grounding lead off the negative side of the coil each and every time.
Pull both connections off and get your self two wires.
One goes to the positive side of the battery over to the terminal (15) +. It was the only terminal that had only one wire on it. It should have a plastic insulator on it too.
The other side marked with a numeral (1) is the negative. This was the place where a tachometer or power stage hooks.
You will take your other wire and connect one end to a ground and touch the number 1 to that grounded wire.
This will cause current to flow through the coil. When you take the wire off that terminal a spark should jump out of the long distributor wire that you have about one-quarter inch away from a strut tower stud and nut. If it does the coil is good. If not its bad.
This is the SECOND METHOD of which, might be simpler, does not rule out the cars other wiring issues like above.
You need to find out the same thing above but with the key "on" in the second position.
You will need only to have the number (15) + terminal hooked up on the coil from the cars original wiring. Take all the others off number (1)- side.
Now ground the coil as before and it should still spark everytime you remove the grounding wire because now you are powering the coil from the cars battery through the ignition switch.
Between the to methods you should be able to isolate the problem from the ignition switch giving power or the ICU and the Power Stage operational side. You have the gremlin contained so its
One or the Other not working.
A lot of this shade tree mechcanic shifting of the wires could be stopped if you had a voltmeter.
They are cheap and simple to use, please get one. The 21st century demands it!
It's a lot easier to back probe those pins and know what you have, how much or where and when.
I have always taught and demonstrated to apprentices that, in most cases, there are two ways to do a job! Even though, there maybe one of them a slighly better than the other, it all boils down too ... "Just as long as we get good results after the efforts of either, Good parts or something fixed!"
Have at it. Figure it out or throw money and parts at it. Lessons learned cost something, it just depends on how you wish to pay for them.
Personally, I have kept my finger tips in my hair and not so much in my wallet. Over the years I think I would have gone hairless, on the back of my head, during the aging process anyway!
(:-)
Phil, you describe two methods. I suggest you actually try either of those two on your own working '91. I think you'll be surprised.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
“Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts.” --- Henry Rosovsky
Hi Art!
I guess I will have too.
I have used the methods on outboard motor coils, motorcycle coils or any battery charged coils.
Magneto styles are different.
I just flick the negatives side and get sparks.
Are you saying there is a difference in these coils on these cars.
Maybe you are suggesting a difference is in or about where the ballast resistor is?
The theories are the same.
What setup do you use besides another coil? R & R.
Ok, I got this feeling I'm about to get a surprise lesson in electronics! I must be in trouble now.
So, if I cannot get current to flow through the coil's windings is there some sort wizardry that needs to happen?
I remember asking you once about what a pull-up resistance does and never got an answer.
I hear a hard knock lesson coming my way.
Will I destroy my coil if I try my experiment on my one and only coil in this car?
I'm not up at my other home that has my big shop, where I have spares stashed away.
You wouldn't do that to me would you, Art! (:-)
If I do this I will isolate the coil from the car as I told others.
I have no idea what that picture is of.
Now you are scaring me.
Surprises from you are usually nice.
Phil
EDIT
Ok I went out and and hooked up my wires and got a spark out the high tension lead.
It was smaller than I expected but it was blue. It did not pop everytime I disconnected it but it did spark.
My ammeter pulled a draw of about 4.5 amps.
I used some small wiring that have clips on them from Radio Shack but it still works.
So if you have power to the terminals you can make a spark.
Why it does not do it everytime is my question? I guess you are waiting for that one!
Imagine how much you'd trust that coil with the occasional puny little spark it made if you didn't already know it was a good part.
Ignition Amplifier or Power Stage
The photo I included is the ignition amplifier with the cover removed. It is a good one. Working one. I still have not run into a defective one in all these years and all these cars. Yet we replace them all the time on this forum, don't we?
You've got a better picture in the Bosch Handbook you told me you bought -- on page 116 in the Battery Ignition chapter. The text explains all the functions this "simple little solid state relay" performs, such as feedback dwell (charging current/time) and protection against leaving the key switch on. It has some brains:
Manually Testing Coil
The best way, in my opinion, to get the same spark you'd get from the coil in a running car, is to use the power stage to charge and discharge the coil:
If you really want to become the breaker points with a clip lead to ground the negative terminal of the coil, add a condenser. This will squelch the spark at the primary break which tends to dissipate all the magnetic collapse energy meant for the secondary. Then it will spark every time, and with enough voltage to jump the 3/4" gap proving it.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Good research: Charles F. Kettering Dayton Engineering Laboratories (DELCO)
I tried, several times!
You evidently did not study all the posting from everyone enough times to grasp a picture in your mind or find a diagram showing the layout of how the components work with each other.
I could only write it down stuff so many ways and then it's up to the interpreter to ask lots of questions. Especially, when there is a dark spot somewhere in their thoughts.
I never read that you have or know how to use a voltmeter.
I guess you will tell us now?
It is still very possible that the Power Stage component is bad. We or I just hate to replace or spend the money on parts instead of tools that work on other future projects.
A voltmeter can fix dishwashers, electric lamps or even simple things like a flashlights.
So do you have spark from the coil by manually firing it or disconnected from the car or by using the normal key switch in the car. Two ways your choice.
Art has placed pictures to show you the middleman's layout. That LED light is about $5-7 at Walmart maybe even less and a Harbor Frieght meter is about the same. The LED will flash and is simpler for this test for you to troubleshoot with.
He is coming from the ICU side to see if it's trying to talk to the Power Stage Amplifier or relay.
I mention this as an add on, as he does not say, you have to crank the engine around for the blinks to happen.
We assume things and that word breaks down to it make an ASS out of U and ME.
Not everything gets written down, in one post of a chat forum. It's the nature of the beast!
I am sure you are going to find the problem, now that your are fully invested, parts wise! (:-)
Thanks.
I am very frustrated, I just installed brand new Bosch ignition amplifier (made in Taiwan) from FCP Euro ($67). still not starting. same cranks good.
First, I would double check that the ignition coil wire is properly seated on both ends and the wiring between the coil and the power stage is properly attached.
Another no cost option is to check the condition of all the ignition related ground wires, clean off any corrosion on the wires and grounding area with sand paper (or similar), then spray with electrical cleaner (CRC makes a good one) and reattach the wires.
Did you test the coil as Machine Man suggested? You don't need a test light, multimeter or voltmeter if you follow his suggestions on how to manually test it although I strongly advice you buy one. It will save you a lot of money, grieve and aggravation in the future. Been down that road of throwing parts at an electrical problem. Gets expensive fast...:)
Mr. Walker said what I would get around to if all else fails.
So far, you are coming back so you have not failed us.
If you read the posts between Art and I, you will realize that not everyone knows everything.
No one has a "long distance magic wand" but sometimes we get lucky and your problem matches our experiences. That's it!
You purchased the Power Stage on your on and since not being the smartest thing to do we all regret that happening to cause a frustration.
The parts house is not so much. I doubt they will let you return it. They are an expensive and remote Tool Box.
In Art's post to me, he says, the Power Stage has brains. If you look at the pictures of the one he provided me or us, the traces going ever which a way and it looks like a brain. Especially, that very center chip with really fine wires. He got that opened up and it still works.
This is Truly amazing, if you have ever unsealed something that was not supposed to be ever repaired or seen into again. His point overall is they are rather rugged.
Your car is a lot bigger and those wires look like blood veins to me. You probably think you are staring into an abiss but even an abiss has its areas named.
Art is more like a Brain surgeon, as you can tell from the gloves in his pictures. (:-) I myself it's all about being grubby! Very seldom I wear gloves but I have gotten better.
My tricks were learned mechanically and are not with sophistication at all.
Art knew to call me on my statements in your post. He knew I needed help to understand that a capacitor or an old term "condenser" does more than just suppress spark across a set of breaker points or a flick of a wire.
It shifts the relationship of time and current to voltage like a Beaver Dam in a water stream.
Most of the time I did get a weak spark unless I opened the points manually. I never realized what I was doing but a condenser was on them.
Now this is all a layman's analogy because a condenser is a simplistic device in a voodoo magic world to me. The Power Stage, as you can see, is more than a non-clicking relay or a set of breaker points.
My point is despite the frustration if you will take the time to learn and ask enough questions you will come out "down stream" with a whole lot more behind you.
Yes I have the book he recommended that I purchase. It covers a lot of German or Bosch ways of engineering things but it is a collaborative work. Unfortunately, it got left at my other house in a drawer of my reading and restroom. (:(
I'm sure there is a reason he is working from the ICU side of the circuitry and pokes the Power Stage with pins instead of a voltmeter. He is humoring me, a bone head, that my idea has some merit.
Art is the man who has answers and maybe a "wand or two" but like any "good teacher," he lets the student work a little, as he did once, to earn those wands!
Yes that fuse in not on the car at that battery location.
It was moved by '90 or '91 to the fuse panel inside of the car. It was due to problems or an engineering consolidation, I believe?
Like Mr. Walker states, it appears the issue is not there since you have fuel into the engine.
Check Art's web site at Cleanflametrap.com site or search the Brickboard related to ICU and a non firing ignition.
I might mistaken but I think there might be a connector related to the ICU that he inspects for corrosion on the nineties cars.
You might ask him directly, if he see's your post. Adding better clues to work with helps but there is no straight forward "wiggle your nose" fix.
Developing a little bit more skill set using a voltmeter with BB guidance is what you need to work for.
Lady Luck was never a fair playing mythology.
All People on the Brickboard borrow and share. I deserve my hard knock lessons for being who I'm! (:-) all in all, it makes for a better thought process.
Don't be frustrated and go with flow. In my case, it helps to be fluid! (:-)
Edit:
I spent too much time on here and Art already responded. You see!
One reason you may be frustrated is because you get a lot of poor advice offered by well-meaning people.
For instance, the notion that in-line fuse doesn't have anything to do with ignition is false. The ignition controller (ICU) is powered through it. However, the fuel system is too, so if it were the trouble, I doubt you'd have wet plugs.
But you don't have this fuse under the hood; it was moved indoors to the panel by your left knee: fuse number 6. Someone familiar with your model would know this.
Another frustration is that method Phil suggested to test the coil. It doesn't work. These are suggestions made from the experience of armchair theorizing instead of actual experience.
You should indeed get a test light or meter and verify the coil is getting powered, and the power stage is connected to it without corrosion.
If you want something from actual experience, yet not advice directly to you, follow the thought process laid out here. I know it assumes a little more understanding of the system than you've achieved yet, but if you go through the thought process, and strive to understand, then the motions, you'll find the trouble. Ask questions. Keep the conversation moving if you try something and don't get results.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
You can say any foolish thing to a dog, and the dog will give you a look that says, 'Wow, you're right! I never would've thought of that!' - Dave Barry
Oh, stop sucking up to the guy! If you really read his posts it is pretty clear that he wants someone to be a magician and tell him exactly what is wrong with his car instead of trying to learn to diagnose the problem himself.
Oh man you stand close when you shoot!
Yep I guess you can say I'm sucking up. You got me point blank.
I trying to entice him to do exactly that, learn something. I want him to invest in himself and get a voltmeter.
Read over his posts.
He has read enough to turn the engine to check the cam but patience may not be one of his strongest virtues. He is at least raising the hood and seeking help.
He is presently throwing parts at it and has gotten that "bad taste" in his mouth.
He did that all on his own. A hard knock lesson.
I feel bad for him but that is far as it goes. I still see value as He can read and write questions.
I want him to do more reasoning and to get away from that easy R&R trap.
Sorry to offend you here on the Board. Your point is well taken with the merit you intended by all.
Thanks for being candid as it also makes the board work as its intented to do.
It's my effort towards him. It's something I try and like to do to pass time. It's like a hobby and it's mine to use, waste or plainly get blown off.
Some of it can get accepted as being useful by anyone as well.
I feel better either way.
Thanks for the thoughtful response! You did not offend me. Sorry if you misinterpreted my message. Yes, being open and honest is best policy. We are on the same page...:) My post was actually aimed at Art Benstein. I thought his post was misdirected and overly critical. Maybe I was being a little too thin-skinned?
BTW - I totally agree with your post.
"I trying to entice him to do exactly that, learn something. I want him to invest in himself and get a voltmeter." Oh yeah, do I ever agree with that! He should get a voltmeter or multimeter and learn how to use it. It will prove to be helpful in the future too.
Personally, I am not particularly technical. You could call me an electrical moron. I am much better at seeing the big picture. But I am getting better! One of the biggest positives I got out of owning my 90 240 for 11 years was becoming more proficient at troubleshooting problems with the car (particularly electrical). A big reason for that was the assistance I received here...:) However, I really had to work at and am continuing to do so.
On the positive side, maybe my tough post might serve to motivate him further. I hope so... I truly understand it is not easy. Old car electronics are definitely not easy.
"On the positive side, maybe my tough post might serve to motivate him further. I hope so... I truly understand it is not easy. Old car electronics are definitely not easy."
First, I owe you an apology, Jim. I have no excuse for being so blunt immediately after reading your attempt to be helpful. I've read your posts over the years and only rarely felt the need to offer alternative technical "opinions" because your input is indeed helpful.
In this thread, as in many, the OP is getting a lot of help attempts, but none seem to be effective. It is easy for me to understand why, because I am technical, particularly. And I have experience.
But the big picture here is the OP is working with the person he feels most comfortable with. This is one area where I am a moron: I've never been able to use my instincts to "feel" who is going to give me accurate technical advice. Trust. Too many times my "feel" is wrong, and I trust someone who does not deserve it. So education leading to understanding is my reaction.
The post you made leading to my misdirected and overly critical response was not the one with mistaken advice, but the suggestion the OP adjust his attitude. It was a perfect defense of our friend Phil's efforts seemingly being wasted on the OP.
My mistake is imagining this Brickboard as a place to find help fixing bricks instead of a friendly place for us all to spend too many hours. I do believe as I hear you; that so many people have come to rely on their I-phones to provide You-tube solutions to every problem in life - without need to study or understand - and expect it as an entitlement.
I'll try harder to view this place as fun and games and win Kitty's thumbs instead of Volvo Technical School.
Thanks for the kind apology, Art! I'm at fault too as I overreacted to your post. What you said above makes a lot of sense. Well said!
I have learned quite a bit from you. You are a great asset to the BB, Uncle Art. Hey, it would make me very happy if I only had a small percentage of your technical knowledge...:)
As frustrating as this thread has been for me at times, I have learned something important from it. You and Phil are great guys!!
Some believe a meter is "better" than a test light. This test lamp shows what is impossible to see with a digital multimeter, just like the video shows what a still photo cannot.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
"The world is full of specialists that only think about one small aspect of a problem. To be a good systems engineer you have to look at the whole picture, all while keeping cost, service, and reliability in mind." - Paul Rako
I checked the coil with multi meter. While ignition Key is on position the voltage at coil terminals (1 and 15) is 12 volts.
Now ignition key is removed, the multi meter needle is at 20K ohm,
the resistance reading between 1 and 15 terminals is 0 ohm,
the resistance between 1 and center post is 7,
the resistance between 15 and center post is 7.
Now I cleaned with sand paper the surfaces of Crank Position sensor and where mounted on engine and installed. Now I tried to crank the engine, only once it tried to start but failed. next time again I tried to crank, not even tried to start same thing.
What should be voltage on both sides of fuse# 6? Test light bulb was very dim at
both sides of fuse# 6 while key is at ON position.
As you're using an analog multimeter (the one with moving needle) please ZERO ADJUST your meter prior to measuring resistance. You might get inaccurate resistance readings if you don't adjust it. Also pull off all wires to ignition coil prior to measuring.
See below:
http://cie-wc.edu/AnalogMultimeterBasicsandMeasuringResistance10_5_11.pdf
To measure resistance between terminals 1 and 15, set dial to X1 position. This for low ohm reading for the primary winding of the coil. Compare with the list below. To measure resistance between terminal 1 and centre high voltage terminal, set dial to X1K or X1000 position. In this position you have to multiply the reading by a thousand. This for high ohm reading for the secondary winding of the coil. Compare with the list below.
About the resistance specs of the your ignition coil:
Take a picture of how you are checking at fuse 6. I cannot guess.
The readings at the coil you give are not conclusive.
One thing my Youtube does not convey is the smell of fuel that comes from cranking the motor with no spark yet the injectors are opening. Please connect the lamp as I show and report your results. Youtube not necessary.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
Mothers of teens now know why some animals eat their young.
In 1991 Volvo 240, where the Crank Position Sensor is located. IPD is selling Crank Speed Sensor and EEUROPARS selling crank position sensor. Both looks same but the part numbers are different. I confused with Knock sensor. I was thinking that Knock sensor is CPS. I was wrong.
To elaborate further on Art's post, you should do an electrical test on the crank position sensor. I have never had to replace one so I can't describe the process to you, but if you search the BB I'm sure you'll find many posts on the topic. There might be a video on YouTube as well.
Also, look at the condition of the wires. Check for damage, corrosion etc. Also, if the insulation is crumbling or falling apart it is a pretty good bet that the CPS is bad. But please don't take that as a license to go ahead and buy another part. Test it first...:)
That fuse is not applicable to your problem. It is for protecting the ECU and the fuel injection system not the ignition system. Also known as the fuel injection fuse. If it is blown you would get no fuel NOT no spark.
If you don't want to listen to our suggestions that is your prerogative. May be you should consider adjusting your attitude. We are trying to help you. Or take the car to a mechanic...
"If you have a spare power stage swap it in and see if it starts."
Before doing this, even if you have a spare module, do the same as Dan suggests about cleaning contacts to the power stage connector. This bore fruit for me in my daughter's 91 240 sedan. Didn't cost a penny.
https://www.brickboard.com/RWD/volvo/1610579/220/240/260/280/update_crank_start.html
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
Back during the days of the former Soviet Union, a fellow by the name of Gerald Chattington had a friend by the name of Rudolph Nosov in the Soviet Embassy, who would drop by occasionally. One evening, Gerald and his wife, Peg, were sitting in the kitchen chatting when Gerald looked out the window and said, "Look, it's snowing." Rudolph looked out and said very quickly, "No, I think it is just rain." "I'm sure it is snow," insisted Gerald. "And I am just as sure that it is rain," said Rudolph. At this point Gerald turned to Peg to settle the argument. Peg looked out the window for a moment, then said, "Rudolph, the Red, knows rain, dear."
After cleaning the contacts and ignition coil 1 and 15 terminal with sand paper,
my Volvo 240 started. I started with old power stage also. Now I have one good
power stage as spare.
If after doing this and there is no fuel at the plugs, then try swapping or repairing the fuel pump relay as suggested in another post. Sounds just like my 90 240 when the FPR went bad. Cranked fine but no start...
If you have fuel at the plugs and no spark start working backwards in the ignition system from the spark plugs. Parts you should test/check - CPS, ignition wires, coil and power stage.
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