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Check your float level. Get a colder spark plug and make sure your distributor is advancing smoothly. Old advance springs will allow the timing to advance too soon and cause power combustion problems. Are your carb jets clear. You can always check your top end speed gasoline mixture by shutting the ignition off at top speed and pulling over and check the color of the plug . Too lean is too hot.
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I have literally tried almost all the things suggested. I ran with no tstat, 160 and 180 tstat with no difference. I installed new water pump and reinstalled old water pump. No difference. I replaced head gasket twice. no difference. I have changed the timing, carb settings, adjusted points changed the spark plugs(which are nice and tan with no oil or water on them), I found a less restrictive upper rad hose, the engine and head have been cleaned and flushed, The distribution tube slots were increased for water flow. Placed a hose in the radiator at full strength and water ran through and out as fast as it ran in. Carb was rebuilt, No difference. Did compression test all cylinders are 115-118psi. Ran with vacuum advanced attached and Mechanical. No difference. Did another test run today and car had the worst boil over yet. 112f today. Car does not run smoothly, sounds like a miss no matter where timing or carb is at. KNow this can not be right. I can turn the adjustment screw in all the way on the Weber and the engine does not die. When I let it run at idle for awhile oil drips out of blowby tube. The only thing that remotely seemed to cool is an electric fan. I will need to get two smaller fans so the spring that holds the hood does not rub it. I could get a new alum radiator but at this point I think that is a waste.
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Maybe I'm wrong, but I think 115-118 for compression is way low. I just did a check on my bone stock 65 544 with B18 and got 155-160 on all cyl. The fact that the readings are even across the board suggests that something is affecting all cylinders.
Are you absolutely sure the cam is timed correctly? At TDC on #1 compression stroke, you should be able to slightly wiggle both rocker arms.
Also, the car idles a very long time in a super hot garage with no problem but overheats when driving. Try setting the timing without a timing light. At slow idle move the dizzy CCW and CW to achieve the fastest idle. Then just a very small amount CCW. This will be very close to or dead on the correct setting. This will eliminate any problem with timing light or slippage of crank pully.
Retarded timing will cause serious overheating and an incorrectly timed cam will do the same.
Good luck, Tom
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Latest road test. Outside temp 109f.I tried to readjust timing like last post said and it placed it at 27. Seemed to run better without the surge but felt it had less power overall. Still dieseled after stopping. I drain and flush radiator out with muratic acid. Held it in te tank for about 4o Minutes. Flushed it out. Radiator is a recored 3 row. Took it out driving for over 30 minutes. After 12 freeway miles the temp was between last line and white area.
When I can on the streets it was closer to the second line and had cooled a bit.
Sitting it approached the white area but just on the edge. No boil over when I got home. Radiator is fine. I think I am looking at water flow, air flow or tuning problems.
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I've followed your trials and tribulations and really didn't have anything to add to all the suggestions but now that you seem to have hit a wall after all the work I think you are missing the obvious. Seeing water rush into and out of a radiator is not a good test of it's performance (as at least one other poster mentioned). To me--without a doubt your problem is the radiator. Having a nice shiny aluminum radiator is sexy -- but you may do just as well - or nearly so (aluminum does work well to transfer heat after all) - but cost wise I think a rodding out job or recore of your radiator will solve the problem. You need a good old fashioned radiator shop to help you. -- Dave
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Maybe I missed it somewhere in the previous posts, but have you flushed the complete system with some sort of acid the clean both engine and radiator? I clean my radiator every 4 years and I'm always surprised what slush comes out, no clues where from.
Regards Michael
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I have a 544 race car and use a Ford Style aluminum racing radiator, fits the hole where the original one was, they are made in many sizes, a cheap fix for over heating
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If it's the same without a thermostat, then the coolant isn't adequately slowed as it moves through the cooling system. If it isn't adequately slowed, it doesn't spend enough time in the radiator to cool and the whole system essentially heat soaks.
Opening the gasket holes likely makes this worse, as does enlarging the holes in the distribution pipe. You don't want to increase the water flow - you want the water (and coolant) to stay in the radiator long enough to get cooled down.
It's counterintuitive, but this is why a Volvo without a thermostat typically runs hotter than one without.
My guess is that an unaltered gasket and tube, and a good quality thermostat will resolve this.
Cameron
Portland
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You mentioned just about all parts of the system except for the radiator. How old is the radiator? When was the last time it was cleaned/rodded or replaced?
BTW, as your t'stat experiment showed -- lowering t'stat temp NEVER solves an overheating problem. If the system won't reject enough heat to keep it below 200F-210F, how would it reject the ADDITIONAL heat needed to get the operating temp down to 160F or 180F. And the post about coolant moving too fast without a t'stat to allow cooling to occur in the rad is incorrect. The more coolant you move through the radiator, the more heat rejection occurs, even on a radiator clogged with deposits. You may not get enough heat rejection to keep the engine cool - the more flow, the more cooling.
ASSUMING t'stat is working correctly (sounds like yours are) and you don't have an internal engine problem (head gasket, timing, etc.) -- if you're overheating you're not rejecting enough heat. It's either because you're not moving enough air across the radiator or the radiator isn't capable of rejecting enough heat.
What happens to your temps when you're just cruising down the road at 45-55 mph?
--
82 242 6.2L coming...; '15 Honda Fit
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"And the post about coolant moving too fast without a t'stat to allow cooling to occur in the rad is incorrect."
Respectfully disagree. Without the thermostat slowing the flow of coolant, the coolant can pass through the radiator too quickly for the radiator to bring the temp down. The high temp at the radiator outlet supports this.
It also supports the possibility of a clogged radiator, as you suggest.
Might also be the wrong design thermostat - that little round disk at the bottom of the oem design is critical for proper cooling. I doubt that's the cause here, though.
Cameron
Portland
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It's an old myth Cameron. A million sources for explaining it - here's one decent one, but I'll leave the others for you to look into. https://www.flowkoolerwaterpumps.com/cooling_faq.html The reason for the small delta T through the rad is, I suspect, a decades old radiator that is full of mineral deposits significantly hampering heat transfer perhaps exacerbated by a mechanical fan design that was expecting Swedish summers, not 102F. For the 4 decades or so I've been playing with cars, no t'stat or one stuck open always resulted in over-cooling, never overheating. If your theory were correct I'd get even better heating in the winter with no t'stat or stuck open --- not the 'where'd my heat go' that actually happens when over cooled. But here's the real kicker - if increased flow/velocity through rad = less heat rejection, why are all water pumps set up to increase in speed as engine speed increases?
--
82 242 6.2L coming...; '15 Honda Fit; '16 Subie X-Trek
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Maybe it's an old myth; or maybe it's one side of an ongoing debate. I read the faq you cited - on the commercial website that promotes a product line - and I looked at other sources and really what I found is a lot of articles that support your assertion and a lot that support mine.
As far as the car that started this whole discussion, I agree that there's a good chance that the radiator itself is a likely cause. It's also possible that his used water pump, with the cast impeller, is more effective than the new one with its stamped impeller. Those stamped versions are proven less effective. Unfortunately, the only cast version on the market (that I know of) is from Italy and pretty expensive.
I don't buy the notion that the fan used by Volvo was designed for a Swedish climate. These cars were exported all over the world and worked reliably in a variety of climates. I drove my own 444 with a 2.2 liter B20 and the original B16 radiator with fixed 4 blade fan in ambient temps greater than 100 degrees, and it never ran hot. Not at prolonged idle, not at freeway speeds. But that, like most of what's to be found online, is simply anecdotal.
I have experienced, firsthand, a Volvo B20 that ran hot without its thermostat and then ran within appropriate temperatures once the thermostat was installed, without any other changes to the cooling system. I won't say that this will always be the case, but others who work on and with Volvos have reported the same thing. That's not anecdotal, it's just what happened. My experience differs from your own. No big.
I don't think we can assume that your heater would work better or worse, as the coolant temp into the core is (or should be) regulated by the heater control valve. It's not just a simple 'open/closed' thing. Or if it is, it's damaged.
Re: all water pumps: They aren't all set up to increase in speed as engine speed increases. Belt driven pumps certainly do exactly that, and that's a function of their drive system. If we follow this logic, why are belt driven fans set up to increase in speed when engine speed is increased given that there's no need for a fan if you're moving at more than 35 or so miles per hour? I guess if you wanted to hold the engine at sustained revs without actually going anywhere, but there's not much point in that. Maybe the water pump and fan speeds are simply a function of their drive mechanism.
Electric water pumps typically offer a given flow rate in cfm that is unrelated to engine speed. It's safe to assume that the electric pumps are intended to move enough water to keep things cool when demand is highest.
Bottom line: I hope the original poster gets the cooling issue addressed. I don't think that enlarging holes in the coolant tube nor the head gasket are going to help, and I do think that having the radiator tested more thoroughly than running a hose into it is the very next thing to do. Probably a good thing to have done well before now.
Best regards,
Cameron
Portland
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Do those cars ever have fan shrouds? Seems it might help.
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No. The 544 did not have a shroud.
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Jim;
I don't have a turning engine in front of me, but as long as direction of rotation is CW when viewed from Radiator, that Fan could go on EITHER way! Think about it!
...but I see a Nylock nut on Exhaust Manifold...whatsatallabout? Heat there will cook out nylon, and make stink, a mess (and maybe a fire!)! Replace that nut, and any other Nylocks on Engine! ...if you insist on using locking nuts (the factory didn't), use the All-Metal type which are slightly deformed (trilobular) and which grab and lock onto threads, but loose the Nylocks!
Cheers!
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Jim;
I would say your last work (WaPu exchange) has brought the issue under control...those pictures of Temp gauge are what I would expect for Arizona...if you add a thermostatically/manually controlled electric fan(s), I don't think you will need to change Radiator at present, but if you add an AC later, you MIGHT need to change it to get the operating margin back...road test at that time will tell...
Questions: Did the WaPu which came out have the formed sheetmetal impeller and did the one which went in have a cast impeller? That's the only difference I can see which would explain the cooling performance difference. What pressure are you making in the system?
Cheers
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I have two 7 inch electric fans on front, 7ib cap and a 160 thermostat. I have only been able to test it in the garage right now with the gearbox out. I hope to have it back in Tuesday. Have have some purple ice to put in to help a bit more.
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I hope not. It is another additive to the water. The research I found helps to lower water temp. You use less antifreeze. Can't hurt to try it.
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Jim;
It's a surfactant or wetter...AKA snake oil IMO...I don't mean to rain on your parade, but I'd be surprised if its use results in any noticeable improvement...
Cheers
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I thought it might be, but go to try it. Did drive today and it did not overheat. When it crept in between 2/3 and top zone I turned on the fans and it cooled down to the 2/3 mark. Be it was only 100F today. I have not tried the Purple ice yet. I have other problems as you can see from my new post.
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Cameron;
I think I disagree with your "speed of Coolant flow" explanation also... conduction of heat from Coolant to Radiator matrix, with their huge contact area happens quite quickly, even if it were to hustle through there unimpeded by an uninstalled Tstat...I think it's flowing through too slowly!
I think problem is caused by poor Radiator throughflow (as suggested by low In/Out Temp differential), caused by either clogged Rad or flow blockage or poor WaPu function, or some combination of those.
Jim must be getting pretty frustrated at this point, but when he finds and sorts this issue, he (and we all) will have learned a lot!
Cheers
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I think Ron's theory deserves a look-see.
Jim, have you tried running a large volume of water through the radiator, like with a garden hose, to see how well it flows out the bottom?
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With the customers approval, I prefer to do the following modifications to the cooling system when installing a B20 in place of a B18.
Besides making sure the radiator core is in excellent condition, replacing the 1" diameter radiator hose barbs with 1 1/4" for the upper and lower radiator hoses and install the later thermostat housing to match. The upper and lower radiator hoses from 1967-1970 122 will now fit.
Update the radiator cap housing in the upper radiator tank to accept a 13 lb radiator cap or install the later expansion tank that accepts a 13 lb cap.
--
Eric
Hi Performance Automotive Service (formerly OVO or Old Volvos Only)
Torrance, CA 90502
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Are you still using a radiator cap rated 4lb.?
planetman doesn't explain why, but the higher rated cap, which holds the coolant at a higher pressure, means the coolant can absorb more heat. That means the same coolant in the radiator now, can keep the engine cooler when it is held at higher pressure, 4lb. vs. 13 lbs.
I don't know the exact science that explains it, but google isn't far away.
Did you install a B20 but are using a B18 cooling system? I'm not sure I can explain why your engine cooled fine before but not now.
In any case, figure out how to get that 13 lb. cap on!
--
I own a Volvo or Does Volvo Own Me? Try the easy to search Expanded Style FAQ Index http://40mph.com/Brickboard_700-900_FAQ_Expanded_Index_Version/
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I am using a 13 lbs cap now. Do not know it works or not. I test drove it today but was only 100f. Stayed a little cooler but still heated a bit at stand still. Electric fans will not work since the big spring for the hood does not leave enough room.
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There are 2 different radiator caps.
On the early version radiator cap, the length of the plunger is 1" and would have been the original style for a 544 and would have been available in pressures ranging from 4 to 7 lbs.
The later version of the this style of cap, the plunger is only 3/4" long and are available in pressures ranging from 11 to over 20 lbs.
So if you are using a 13 lb cap, then it is the later version and if the fill neck is a 1", the radiator is never sealed and that can cause the engine to run hot.
Most auto parts stores don't have the early version in stock, so if you have trouble finding 1, I have 7 lb 1" long radiator caps in stock.
--
Eric
Hi Performance Automotive Service (formerly OVO or Old Volvos Only)
Torrance, CA 90502
hiperformanceautoservice.com or oldvolvosonly.com
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So, maybe I am looking at this the wrong way. What is considered too hot. The hottest I have recorded the water in the top of radiator was 212f. The gauge is deep into the top white area. However, is this a dangerous temp for damage to the engine? What is the range of of normal operation in 110f outside temp?
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I dont think 212F is anything to worry about if that is your max temperature. A 50/50 glycol/water mixture has to get north of 250F to boil (assuming you have a ~13psi radiator cap).
Dean
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I could not locate a 13lb cap with a 1" neck depth. The best I could locate is a 7lb cap.
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Good thought about how hot is too hot, worth figuring out, maybe everything is actually work fine! Your climate is above average hot at 110F, so your car is going to run hotter no matter what. 212F may be reasonable under the conditions.
I have an aftermarket gauge, VDO, in my 740 which reads shy of 12 o'clock generally, about 195F. I have this gauge http://www.egauges.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=310-1052
It may be worthwhile to set-up a temporary modern temp gauge to be sure you existing gauge is working correctly.
Check out this guy's webpage http://k6jrf.com/MB_WW.html He lives in San Diego and runs 40% anti-freeze and 60% water. Water is a better coolant than anti-freeze, so this makes sense. He has some other cooling tips, including the importance of the fan clutch.
--
I own a Volvo or Does Volvo Own Me? Try the easy to search Expanded Style FAQ Index http://40mph.com/Brickboard_700-900_FAQ_Expanded_Index_Version/
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Ok. So do others, so you're in good company.
My experience, and that of Volvo gurus smarter than myself, indicates otherwise.
Stop by, and I'll be happy to demonstrate. You can chose which car to use for testing.
Cameron
Portland
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The thermostat on the left is an original Volvo stat. It is 180 and does open and close. I used it first before the 160. Neither really made a difference.
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Thank you for the comments. Many make sense. The Radiator and Water pump come off today. I will test the radiator and replace the new pump with the old one. The old pump worked. These are the last things to check. I am hoping it is the pump. I did not see a lot of water movement.
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Nice pics.
Your top radiator hose does not look round, mine looks nice and round with no bulges.
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"...I have three working thermostats that open in boiling water. One is a 160, two are 180's...."
When you put them in a pan of hot water, did you have the thermometer in there also so that you can see if they actually open at the advertised temp (160, 180, whatever) or did you have to run the water temp all the way up to boiling (~212) before they open?
"...Radiator has 15degrees difference in in temp and out..."
So let's say you're running the engine with no radiator cap and the thermometer is stuck in the upper tank, as your photo suggests. Since the radiator cap is so close to the upper hose neck, you should see the thermometer climb to whatever the thermostat rating is immediately after the water starts to circulate within the radiator tank. If the the circulation starts and the thermometer quickly climbs to something greater than the thermostat rating, then I would suspect a bad thermostat.
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When I tested the thermostats it was in water with a thermometer in the water to check for correct opening. I ran the car with no thermostat and it does the same.
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Have you compared TDC as indicated on the damper pulley vs TDC of #1 piston at the top of the stroke? I'm just wondering if the damper may have spun a bit, somehow, causing retarded spark.
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posted by
someone claiming to be John Stearling
on
Fri Jul 22 23:32 CST 2016 [ RELATED]
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Are these 3 thermostats Volvo B18 thermostats or more generic NAPAs?
If they're Volvo ones, do you have the part #'s?
I'd consider getting an OEM one...
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