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So I finish the restore of this 62 Volvo PV544(well we know they are never finished)
[URL=http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/lelshaddai/media/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-07-14%2015.49.59_zpsvjbxalbn.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g432/lelshaddai/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-07-14%2015.49.59_zpsvjbxalbn.jpg[/IMG][/URL][URL=http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/lelshaddai/media/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-07-14%2015.49.33_zpspxtcvz07.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g432/lelshaddai/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-07-14%2015.49.33_zpspxtcvz07.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
I pulled the engine and tranny and refreshed them. New gaskets, seals, lifters. I replaced the clutch, pilot bearing, throw out bearing and had the flywheel resurfaced.
[URL=http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/lelshaddai/media/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/Clutch_zpscrguew8w.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g432/lelshaddai/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/Clutch_zpscrguew8w.jpg[/IMG][/URL][URL=http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/lelshaddai/media/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-07-13%2019.19.09_zpspyiaivfy.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g432/lelshaddai/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-07-13%2019.19.09_zpspyiaivfy.jpg[/IMG][/URL][URL=http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/lelshaddai/media/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-06-24%2014.55.01_zpsi58uqyxe.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g432/lelshaddai/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-06-24%2014.55.01_zpsi58uqyxe.jpg[/IMG][/URL][URL=http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/lelshaddai/media/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-04-18%2016.31.46_zpsytbe84o5.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g432/lelshaddai/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-04-18%2016.31.46_zpsytbe84o5.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
Old Clutch
[URL=http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/lelshaddai/media/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-04-13%2016.59.26_zpsohkbtetv.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g432/lelshaddai/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-04-13%2016.59.26_zpsohkbtetv.jpg[/IMG][/URL][URL=http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/lelshaddai/media/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-04-13%2016.59.19_zpsalrgjtyp.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g432/lelshaddai/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-04-13%2016.59.19_zpsalrgjtyp.jpg[/IMG][/URL][URL=http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/lelshaddai/media/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-04-13%2016.55.21_zpspfyl1rui.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g432/lelshaddai/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-04-13%2016.55.21_zpspfyl1rui.jpg[/IMG][/URL][URL=http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/lelshaddai/media/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-04-13%2016.55.16_zpspn8iqyin.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g432/lelshaddai/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-04-13%2016.55.16_zpspn8iqyin.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
Here is the problem: the tranny grinds from 1st to second and when shifting down from 3rd to 2nd. All other gears work fine. The tranny shifted fine before new clutch. Granted the old clutch was beyond the rivets. I had adjusted all the play out of the pedal. I tried the trick about leaving it in 1st with the clutch in and revving motor up to see if it would move but it does not. If I wait a few seconds with the clutch in it will shift. I know(but hope not) that it could be the synchros but it did not do this before. Any ideas would be great. I have tried many so far.
2. Severe overheating - again all the gaskets and seals were replaced. The car did not overheat before.
I replaced the water pump and change the thermostat from a 182 to 160. Both thermostats over heat. Here are the pics of the car temp after 12 minutes in traffic. I am running 50/50 antifreeze. I did notice the head gasket covered part of the water tubes in head but just a little. Granted I was driving in 110 degrees but it just flat out redlined on heat. It did reach 250 today at the sensor.
[URL=http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/lelshaddai/media/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-07-14%2010.49.34_zpsfwwibnmd.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g432/lelshaddai/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-07-14%2010.49.34_zpsfwwibnmd.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/lelshaddai/media/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-07-14%2010.49.18_zpspbk2h2cj.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g432/lelshaddai/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-07-14%2010.49.18_zpspbk2h2cj.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
Pointed at sensor for gauge
[URL=http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/lelshaddai/media/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-07-10%2016.52.10_zpsqepl91b3.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g432/lelshaddai/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-07-10%2016.52.10_zpsqepl91b3.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
Pointed to head between 1st and 2nd cyl
[URL=http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/lelshaddai/media/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-07-10%2016.51.04_zpsdaocfdoq.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g432/lelshaddai/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-07-10%2016.51.04_zpsdaocfdoq.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
Pointed to the water neck
[URL=http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/lelshaddai/media/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-07-14%2010.51.09_zpskgeqnz9j.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g432/lelshaddai/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-07-14%2010.51.09_zpskgeqnz9j.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
Any help would be great.
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First the clutch - the pedal is SUPPOSED to have free play.
Unless you have a manual that says different, I use 1/2 inch.
Free play is necessary to insure that the clutch does not slip at high speed. Having no free play is like keeping your foot on the clutch pedal all the time.
Your car was not designed to be shifted on stands - the wheels do not spin properly. Probably, the wheels slow down between shifts, whereas they keep rolling at the same speed on the road. The engine may be going faster than the wheel speed - I do not think that this is good for shifting.
As for overheating, perhaps you actually blocked some holes that you did not see with the gasket in place.
The gasket should fit perfectly. Did you keep the old one? compare the new one to the old one.
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James;
I agree that there should be free-play...but not so much lost motion that Throwout Bearing is inadequately moved when Clutch pedal is pushed and friction plate is not allowed to completely slip...this would continue to turn Gearbox input shaft and cause grinding as you try to shift...as symptoms given...don't forget problem is not a slipping Clutch, but (possibly) Clutch not slipping enough!
Cheers
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Ron - the manual that I have for 544s states that for both early models with B16 and later models with B18 engines, the free play should be 10-15mm or 3/8 to 19/32 inches.
My suggestion of 1/2 inch should be OK
For later cars, I have a set of green books for 120, 140, and 1800 - their free play is much less 3-4mm. Note, these assemblies have almost no linkage direct to a master cylinder.
Almost every car I have owned that had a standard shift, 61 Mini, 63 MG 1100, 49 Chevy, 53 Chevy, 66 Dodge, 63 Sprite, Gremlin - all called for 3/8 to 5/8 inch of free play. (My first car a '60 SAAB had a cable clutch that suffered a broken cable, and I never adjusted it.)
It has been my experience that many people do not understand the need for free play and adjust their clutches for a certain grab point or some other measure like the example in this thread.
It is my contention that free play should be adjusted to the proper measurement, then if the clutch is not operating properly, then the other aspects or the clutch need to be checked.
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OK. Did an another experiment to check on cooling. This time without a thermostat. I ran the engine in the garage, garage temp is 100. I have a thermometer in the rad with the cap off to see water temp.
1. 0 mins temp at top of rad is 95, actual water temp is 95, bottom of rad 92, sensor temp for gauge 113
2. 2 mins temp at top of rad is 116, actual water temp is 118, bottom of rad 109, sensor temp for gauge 131
3. 4 mins temp at top of rad is 131, actual water temp is 130, bottom of rad 124, sensor temp for gauge 163
4. 6 mins temp at top of rad is 145, actual water temp is 142, bottom of rad 137, sensor temp for gauge 178
5. 8 mins temp at top of rad is 155, actual water temp is 152, bottom of rad 145, sensor temp for gauge 190
6. 10 mins temp at top of rad is 164 , actual water temp is 158, bottom of rad 156, sensor temp for gauge 204
7. 12 mins temp at top of rad is 168, actual water temp is 160, bottom of rad 160, sensor temp for gauge 207
8. 16 mins,temp at top of rad is 171, actual water temp is 171, bottom of rad 162, sensor temp for gauge 206
Took it for a drive will I was still testing - 5 mins stop and took readings, 106 outside
9. temp at top of rad is 206, actual water temp is n/a, bottom of rad 189, sensor temp for gauge 251
I will take radiator off and clean out and do a different head gasket.
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Please take a picture of the thermostat while you have it out and post it.
While you have the cylinder head off, check the water distribution tube inside the head for blockage. Usually the culprit is excess silicon glue that got into the cooling system from a water pump installation.
What brand of head gasket did you use?
--
Eric
Hi Performance Automotive Service (formerly OVO or Old Volvos Only)
Torrance, CA 90502
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I do not have the box anymore for the head gasket. It was ordered from VP autoparts
419763 Gasket Cylinder head B20B/D 68-75 E/F 71-
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I will try to include a pic. This board does allow url in the post to work. Here is the url. if you go there you will see the pics. Pic of three thermostats two on the left are 180 and the one on the right is supposed to be 160 but I could not get it to open until 182. The left one came out of a 63 B18 parts car I had.
[URL=http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/lelshaddai/media/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-07-15%2013.38.15_zps46qj11wo.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g432/lelshaddai/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-07-15%2013.38.15_zps46qj11wo.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/lelshaddai/media/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-07-15%2013.37.54_zpsik4j5tbt.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g432/lelshaddai/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-07-15%2013.37.54_zpsik4j5tbt.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
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I would deem the 2 thermostats on the left as unusable for a B18/B20/B30 Volvo engines due to the size of the disc on the bottom. The disc is an important feature and those 2 most likely will NOT properly cover the tube under the thermostat. When that tube is not blocked off when the thermostat opens, hot water will be recycled back to the head instead of going to the radiator to be cooled.
I especially don't like the amount of excess silicone glue visible on the center thermostat. Do you not have the correct rubber seal ring?
And if the water pump has a similar amount of silicone glue, it is highly likely that some silicone broke off and may have plugged the water distribution pipe inside the head.
The thermostat on the right looks like the right type. Did you test that 1 to see if it works?
BTW, here is the picture you wanted to post. It is not as easy to post pictures here, but with a little HTML knowledge, it ain't that hard.
--
Eric
Hi Performance Automotive Service (formerly OVO or Old Volvos Only)
Torrance, CA 90502
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I meant to say that the thermostats in the CENTER and to the RIGHT in his picture should not be used.
The thermostat on the LEFT appears to be an original old style Volvo thermostat. The new ones look a little different, but still have smaller block off discs.
Sorry for the confusion!!
--
Eric
Hi Performance Automotive Service (formerly OVO or Old Volvos Only)
Torrance, CA 90502
hiperformanceautoservice.com or oldvolvosonly.com
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I was wondering about the left from right. The left one was pulled from a 63 I had as a parts car. It still opens at 180. I will take the head off and check the gasket.
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...I'd first remove Tstat and run it without and see if it still overheats...I've also noticed that the Head to Block Coolant passage hole in the El-Ring brand Headgaskets (for cyl no 4) often doesn't line up perfectly...I usually simply make an adjustment cut in the gasket so there is less restriction...but I would NOT expect this alone could cause overheating.
Overheating is more likely caused by something in the Head, like Tstat, or Pump (I realize Pump is not in the head, but I associate it more with Head than Block).
...or Distribution Pipe...do you know of what Eric is talking when he speaks of that?...it's a Brass Pipe running from front of Head to rear directing Coolant from Pump to combustion chambers...Pipe has distribution slots at each cylinder which need to be clear to deliver Coolant.
Good Hunting!
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The second test I did was without a thermostat in it. On the road test it was up to 251 at the sensor. What really is the normal operating temp for this engine. Granted it was a 110 on the outside and the road temp was even hotter.
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Jim;
250 deg (confirmed?) at Sensor is way too hot, even WITH a Tstat...is cooling system full and burped? ...sounds like a flow problem as OP already suggested...possible blockage, or something unusual with WaPu.
Is oil level correct...is Timing reasonably accurately set...is it not running excessively lean?
Good Hunting!
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Timing is correct 10-11 degrees. Oil level is correct. Running well, tune with light and tach. Not running lean. I have included a picture looking down the thermostat housing. You can see it is covering up half the water port. The other pick is the sensor. It does read accurate. .
[URL=http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/lelshaddai/media/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-07-16%2008.38.02_zpslidlwwew.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g432/lelshaddai/1962%20Volvo%20PV544/2016-07-16%2008.38.02_zpslidlwwew.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
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...I don't like it, and I would have opened the hole in gasket to be less restrictive, before bolting down Head and when I had access, but I just don't believe it is restrictive enough to cause overheating!...we presume that one visible is typical and there are no others that are a lot worse...
I do see a fair amount of crusty flakes of corrosion...have you flushed Cooling Sys with a hose under pressure with a vigorous flowrate? Those flakes would settle in the bottom of cooling passages in Block...again, probably not enough to cause overheating, but good flow and passage should not be blocked.
I believe you stated WaPu was replaced right? Any issues with installation? Have you used RTV gasket sealer (maybe too much?) when assembling this engine?
Can't see sensor pic...reload that one!
Good Hunting!
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Now that you have the cylinder head removed, you should check the distribution pipe especially since I saw a piece of blue silicone in the picture you posted with a view inside the thermostat opening.
You can't easily see the openings from the outside with your only view being through the water jacket holes that run directly under the distribution pipe.
If your cylinder head were here, I would remove the 35 mm core/freeze plug on the front of the head and then look inside and clean if necessary and install a new plug.
However, installing the Welch/disc type of plugs used on these engines is different than most cars and although not hard to do, it takes technique and finesse to get a seal.
And for some reason, I have NEVER seen a step by step set of instructions on how to do it and I have looked in old car manuals and online. And Volvo didn't have a special tool to make the job easier.
--
Eric
Hi Performance Automotive Service (formerly OVO or Old Volvos Only)
Torrance, CA 90502
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Guys;
I had this info from a fellow enthusiast from the German Voloniacs Forum a while back but am only now publishing it...hopefully it helps.
Eric; I invite your critical review!
http://www.sw-em.com/Coolant_Distribution_Pipe_Notes.htm
Cheers
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I looked it over. May try and take the Dist tube out and take a look.
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Ron,
It looks pretty good.
--
Eric
Hi Performance Automotive Service (formerly OVO or Old Volvos Only)
Torrance, CA 90502
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What is the exact measurement of the smaller welch disc? Exactly 35 mm or 34.93MM? I can find the 34.93 MM
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That is probably the right size.
However, I have dozens of those plugs in stock for $2.04 a piece.
Did you find anything inside the pipe?
--
Eric
Hi Performance Automotive Service (formerly OVO or Old Volvos Only)
Torrance, CA 90502
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I have not pulled the plug yet. I will do that Tuesday. I just wanted to make sure of the right plug and that they are available before I go in.
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So Eric do you think this is a good idea generally to alleviate hot running, when it is not caused by other determinable issues - thermostat/radiator/blockages/etc.?
I assume enlarging the holes does affect distribution of "cooler" water, but don't understand to what extent this lowers overall pressure coming out of that tube. From the posted link it appears the the resized holes are 3-4 times as large as the original ones - they're both longer and wider.
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I agree with Ron that this should be a last resort option.
However, I am beginning to think that the ethanol in modern gas is causing older motors to run leaner and thus hotter and it might be necessary to start modifying the tube openings.
--
Eric
Hi Performance Automotive Service (formerly OVO or Old Volvos Only)
Torrance, CA 90502
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I do have a working correct thermostat from a parts car I had. I would like to modify the holes but I am having trouble pulling out the tube. I have using needle nose but they slip off and I do not want to damage the tube. Any thought , suggestions or tricks for removal?
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You can remove the 45mm plug at the back of the head and tap it out.
--
Eric
Hi Performance Automotive Service (formerly OVO or Old Volvos Only)
Torrance, CA 90502
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posted by
someone claiming to be Ron Kwas from a secure secret alternate location
on
Tue Jul 19 08:04 CST 2016 [ RELATED]
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Danny;
I understand your concern about this modification...I also emphasize that it should Only be considered AFTER ALL other common cooling system issues have been checked and eliminated as the cause of poor performance...I too fail to see how it would affect overall temperature...it clearly only affects flow rates and quantities, so I could see where the response time of the cooling system would maybe be decreased, and in some cases (like racing or where engine is under high load and putting high amounts of excess heat into cooling system), that would be a benefit and necessary.
Cheers
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Did you end up purchasing the correct thermostat?
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OK. Did an experiment to check on cooling. I ran the engine in the garage, garage temp is 95. I have a thermometer in the rad with the cap off to see water temp.
1. At 10 mins Temp hit 160 and thermostat opened
2. 13 mins temp at top of rad is 171, actual water temp is 167, bottom of rad 126, sensor temp for gauge 212
3. 16 mins temp at top of rad is 180, actual water temp is 170, bottom of rad 141, sensor temp for gauge 223
4. 20 mins temp at top of rad is 183, actual water temp is 172, bottom of rad 157, sensor temp for gauge 220
5. Increased rpms 22 mins temp at top of rad is 187, actual water temp is 179, bottom of rad 145, sensor temp for gauge 230
6. 24 mins temp at top of rad is 190, actual water temp is 1181, bottom of rad 189, sensor temp for gauge 232
7. 26 mins temp at top of rad is 195, actual water temp is n/a replaced cap, bottom of rad 178, sensor temp for gauge 234
8. 30 mins, on stands in gear now temp at top of rad is 184, actual water temp is n/a, bottom of rad 1175, sensor temp for gauge 230
9. 40 mins temp at top of rad is 181, actual water temp is n/a, bottom of rad 173, sensor temp for gauge 229
Heater putting out 150 degree air, when closed 135
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Jim;
Linked Pictures are not visible, please repost.
Overheating: If it did not overheat before work, and now it does, there's only one conclusion which can be drawn...something having to do with this work is causing it...first, verify Coolant level, and that system is burped of air...next is Tstat, because it is THE temp controlling device, and it has been changed, I'd look there next...it's proper function should be observable on the Temp Gauge, because Gauge is so fast-acting that the first opening should be apparent by a visible drop in indication (you can also detect Flow through Radiator after that by feeling temp of upper and lower hoses...before first opening those hoses will be cold) if you don't see the Temp drop first time it opens, remove Tstat, and test on stove, or just put back the old one. Buy cheap Tstats (without Bypass Pipe block-off), and you get what you pay for!
Shifting problem: Again, if it did not have an issue before work, and now does, recheck what was done. Symptoms still cause me to suspect Gearbox input shaft is not disengaging from Crankshaft enough...Clutch issue (is adjustment now?...linkage bushings OK now, no lost motion?)...or Pilot Bearing (which was changed) is somehow not allowing input shaft to turn with respect to Crankshaft. Is Shifter nut fully tightened on Gearbox lid?
Eric; Is there any way (without removing Gearbox) to verify if Gearbox input shaft is not completely free of Crankshaft when Clutch is (supposed to be) disengaged? Maybe starting it in Gear, with Clutch depressed, and Back Wheels off the ground to see it they get drive...?
Good Hunting!
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I have not mastered the posting of pics on this site. They are the same ones that are on the Volvo owners forum.
Some insights: After I finished the work the vehicle was up on stands. When I started it up, in neutral, the first time the wheels spun as if in gear. I even dropped it down and it lurched forward when starting. Eventually it stopped. It works great in all gears but 2. I did try a test where I had the car on the ground it was in 2nd but the clutch was in. I revved it up to see if it would move. It did not move at all. Sounds like in both issues this is mechanic(which I am not ) error. The clutch is adjusted out as far as it can go. I have 85 weight oil in the box. Some suggested a heavier oil. The one time I may have changed things is when I pulled the front cover that has the input shaft out a couple of inches to replace the gasket. I only have a M40 manual not a M4. Is the oil worth trying? Is there anything I can look for with the shifter out and can look in the box?
As far as the temp goes I am starting to suspect the new head gasket. I know it covered half of the rear water ports in the back of the block near the sensor. I ran the engine with the cap off the rad and water started to flow at about 160. I can see the gauge move when this happens. The problem is it just gets hotter and hotter. It will go down a little when the engine is revved but eventually it just flatlines right.
It is frustrating. I try to make these things better and they just get worst. I try to learn from mistakes but ........
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Before you make any major changes to the car, try hunting down a Volvo thermostat compatible with the B18. Like mentioned in other posts, they are not created equal and the thermostat may not be opening as intended. Might be the easiest solution for your over heating issues. The bases of the thermostats between an OEM Volvo thermostat and aftermarkets do not look the same.
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This the correct type of thermostat. The plunger caps off the bypass tube when it opens.
https://www.ipdusa.com/products/5672/101489-thermostat-82c
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Can you supply pictures of the thermostats you are using? Where did you get them? All thermostats are not created equal.
Did you do anything to the transmission while it was out like resealing?
--
Eric
Hi Performance Automotive Service (formerly OVO or Old Volvos Only)
Torrance, CA 90502
hiperformanceautoservice.com or oldvolvosonly.com
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The 182 thermostat was the one that was in the car when I bought it. After I redid the engine and tranny and reinstalled it started to over heat. The new 160 thermostat is from NAPA. It is a NAPA brand thermostat. I watched the 182 thermostat with a thermometer in the rad and it opened properly. I did not think about when I installed the new head gasket but the two water port in the back of the block did not quite line up with the head gasket. It probably cover half of the two ports. Do not know if this is a problem. The block and head were cleaned out. New water pump. 50/50 on fluid in rad. All I did was replace the gaskets and seals on the gearbox. I had to pull out the front cover of the gearbox about 3 inches to put on the new seal.
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I have had nothing but trouble with most of the easily available thermostats from large chain auto parts stores.
I only sell and use thermostats that I have to buy from wholesale auto parts suppliers that specialize in European cars. They sell the same brands that Volvo uses.
I keep in stock a 158° thermostat made by Calorstat made in France and a 165° thermostat made by Wahler in Germany.
Considering it was fine before you worked on it and that you had to partially disassemble the transmission to reseal it, I am going to have to assume you may have accidentally dislodged a shift dog and/or spring or some other internal part(s). And if I am correct, you will have to remove the transmission and have it reassembled correctly and possibly rebuilt if something got damaged.
--
Eric
Hi Performance Automotive Service (formerly OVO or Old Volvos Only)
Torrance, CA 90502
hiperformanceautoservice.com or oldvolvosonly.com
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