Just looking for clues as to where to start. I recall my posting a response to a similar situation --- Replace the Solenoid ---- to which Art posted something about something else wearing out and that being the problem.



So, grocery shopping. Come out and turned the key nothing. Having had this happen on 2 other Volvos over the years, I assumed that the solenoid is "stuck".

Hit the soleniod a few raps...turned key. Nothing. Figured, oh well got to do the hard jump. Pulled back the rubber sleves at the starter connection and with a screwdriver tip, jumped the battery conxn to the blue/yellow wire spade.

Starter turned. figured that got it over the snag. Turned key to start .... same nothing.

Turned key to run...jumped contacts with screwdrive tip (as above) ... starter turned... engine started and ran. Drove home --- 6 miles.

Into garage turned off. turned key to start...nothing.

Battery is fine, all warning lights light up.

Question: Art what is that other thing that goes wrong with the Starter besides the solenoid that causes this. That Other Part that wears out.

Tomorrow I'll be out with the multi meter checking the yellow/blue wire from the key switch to the starter 1st, on the off change that it's the wire/wiring. It having the original harness.

Original starter, never had it out. I've got a spare solenoid.



Then I guess I'll pull the starter.

ZO

nice day, had a "nail bitter" time this morn (as my tree guy tagged it) when that YUGE one declined to go where it should go.

Post: rope, come along, on target. However, on examination of the stump--4 inches--holding it UP. While he danced around with ropes and come-alongs, and I stood well away. No Wind Today. Send your thankfull praises. ANEMOI will smile on us again.

But more to the point. Finally got under the Beast to R/R the starter. Can Not budge the bolts. So, do I lift weights for a few more months?

Harbor Freight to the (cheap tools R-Us) Ordered an Electric (corded) Impact wrench and all the sockets I would ever need, plus extension and wobble extensions.

I'll report back on my new adventure into Too Cheap to Believe TOOL LAND.

Really too bad Sears went tits up on that Hedge Fund guy.

Rule of Thumb for Old 240ish wannabees...U Need 2. Won to drive when/while U fix the Other.

So the only difference between the starter and the ReBuilt one I got from FCP...at $85 Clearance Sale(Oh the Core $25)...who dosen't need one...even if only on the shelf.

the Big one Bosch SR37X

was the one that came off had a threaded face...so no Nuts to grab.

I was lazy and getting in tune with the Extra Long screwdriver that I used to "one touch" the starter in the parking lot of the Safeway.

PS: IMHO experience...no one cares if your car dosen't start and U have the hood up. Kind of a social experiment...not a single "what's up" or "can I help"

And me with Historic Plates and a Grey Beard.

"PS: IMHO experience...no one cares if your car dosen't start and U have the hood up."
I wouldn't expect anyone to. These days, cars are too complicated to work on, so few have the experience and knowledge. And I don't think they teach students which way to turn a wrench in college or university. It's a hands on thing.
Ie. the old dude "with Historic Plates and a Grey Beard" probably knows more about fixin' cars than they.
--
1980 245 Canadian B21A with SU carb, M46 trans, 3:31 dif, in Brampton, Ont.

What a great thread, very intertwining. Speaking of "college students" and turning wrenches, how many times have you wanted to turn the parts monitor around to finally get the info you need for a part at kragens or what not? They simply were trained to push enter and receipt buttons now days.

I would have chatted you up. I guessed it would be the Safeway -- College neighborhood.

Not sure your experience is typical. Last time I lifted the hood in a parking lot, I hardly had time to duck my head inside before getting an offer "I've got cables." Of course, I often travel with a lovely woman.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore

"Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat." -Anonymous

Well, you would be biased, as a Volvo owner.

actually it was the Giant on 140 where the inital no-start occurred and I spent the most time with the hood up, the hatch open and the toolbox out. About 10-15 mins fiddling, as the sun was going down.

I'd say 5 people got into their cars in view of all this and just drove off.

The time at the Safeway, hood up under 2mins just long enough to tag the starter with the screw driver, so not long enough to scientifically prove that Cranberry Square shoppers are more poor-samaritan self-centered types than College Square shoppers.

If you have power at the solenoid, check the length of the starter brushes. When they are too short there is nowhere for the current to go.

I had a similar problem with my 120. The brushes were only about 3/8" long. The manual says that 9/16" (14mm) is the minimum length. If you do replace the brushes, you will need a ~300 Watt soldering gun and a heat sink on the brush wire. To reinstall the end cap you will need to pull the springs back and rest them against the side of the brush, jamming the brush in the holder.

And of course, since you are in there, check the bushings. They are easy to replace. A new solenoid and you will be good for another 300,000 miles.

Greg

Clueless on this history CB. There are but a very few "if this then replace that" formulae in 240 repair, and your "this" does not conjure up a "that" in my memory.

Alternate approach is the one you suggested. You're lucky if you can get the problem to duplicate. Just keep in mind the solenoid has TWO windings in it -- one to help pull it in and one to keep it in during cranking.

The wire between battery and solenoid coil terminal is a long skinny one with several connectors and an ignition switch in it, so there's an expected voltage drop which might not supply enough current where there's a problem, and you are short circuiting that voltage drop when you use the screwdriver. Someone once said the firewall test socket crimp caused their problem, but every time I look at that, it isn't in the path, but a stub for the ECU. And from oldduke's post I'm certain you don't have a neutral safety switch to concern you.

So, long story short, if you can get it to stay broken, and have help to turn the key, measure everything with key in KP-III. Measure from battery minus post to the brass tab on the solenoid. Measure the braided wire going into the starter. Measure the starter housing.

Is your starter still the big one like in your '80 or is it the permanent magnet version? Here's a map of the older starters with some clarity on the internals http://cleanflametrap.com/81wdm8.jpg


--
Art Benstein near Baltimore

The male is a domestic animal which, if treated with firmness and kindness, can be trained to do most things. - Jilly Cooper

Here's the deal. With key in KP-III and no clicks:

Check for voltage at the braided wire going into the starter. If you have it there, the brushes are suspect. If zero there, but you see 10-12V on the brass tab of terminal 50, then the solenoid coil is open or the solenoid is mechanically jammed.

Now in another scenario, lets say your solenoid does kerchunk (not a weak click) but the starter does not turn. If 12V at the braided lead: brushes. If not: solenoid contacts. How's that for an "if this then that."

I've never pulled or tried to pull the brush cover with the starter in the vehicle. Don't even know if that's something a youthful contortionist would entertain.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore

I'll re-use a styrofoam coffee cup until it starts to develop soft spots in the sides.

thanks Art.

haven't gotten into yet today. I turned the key just now and there are no clicks, so it hasn't healed itself, and os it's not heat related like some solenoid failures that I have had.

It is the standard Bosch starter. 200K+ on the Odometer that stopped at 195K --- yes another repair needed there.

I got it in 1997 at 103K. I've never had the starter out so it's probably time. And yes it is a 5spd so getting to those bolts won't a problem. I've got the two-1/2 long extensions etc, just don't have an impact wrench.

The car itself has been garaged since I bought it, so it hasn't really been exposed to the elements, beyond the first 10 years of it's life spent in Rockville and Baltimore(at Hopkins as an underegrad), did I tell uo it came with a degree...and a sorority membership.

Charlie

It would be very difficult to get the brushes back in place with the starter in the car.

To get to the brushes remove the two screws in the little 'top hat' on the end of the starter shaft. Remove the horseshoe shaped clip and shims. Unbolt the end cap and pull it away. Two of the brushes are attached to the armature windings and will not let the cap come completely off.

I think it would be possible to pull the cap back enough (1/4-3/8"?)to see inside without letting the brushes slip off the commutator. If so, that would make it possible to check the brushes with the starter installed.

For some reason two of the brushes were shorter than the others but I don't remember if it was the power or the ground side.

Greg

Oops - one set of brushes in attached to the field windings...

It will be a lot easier to check out once removed from the car. While you are in there you might as well have a look at the bushings.

Greg

Hi Greg,

I'm not sure which year Volvo started using the PM 1400W starters, that's why I asked CB which one he had. What I do know is the 83s and 84s I've owned had the larger, heavier starters with field windings (the ones you could coax with a hammer with impunity) and my 89s came with the smaller starters which if I did that, the magnets would shatter. My ownership experience skips those early B230 years.

I've only rebuilt the latter. That kind of bears out the popular notion the older starters are more robust. Either way, I think short brushes could be the cause of CB's well documented symptoms because the little bit of extra current to the solenoid afforded by the screwdriver shunt might allow just the one coil the strength to pull in the contactor.

What tends to oppose that theory is the jostling that has occurred both in trying to make it work and driving it should have given him at least one key start. So the wiring between the battery junction box, ignition switch, and terminal 50 is still on the suspect list, and only those voltage drop tests I mentioned will distinguish that case from the former.


Wound field:



Permanent magnet:



--
Art Benstein near Baltimore

The secret of a good sermon is to have a good beginning and a good ending; and to have the two as close together as possible. - George Burns

The starter from my '87 is a permanent magnet type. The back cover can be removed without pulling the brushes off the armature. If the brushes stick up less than 1/8" above the holders, they are very close to being too short.

Greg

so it got down into the upper 30's last night. I went out to the garage and turned the key, it clicked, turned it a second time and the starter ran.

I'm going to do some voltage testing.
But I'm eventually just going to pull it.

According to my old RPR catalogue 85 -87 could have either starter. After 88 is was the smaller one.

My 85 had the PM starter.
Dan

I sorta suspected the change came with the B230. Bet the "85" turbos had the old ones. Thanks Dan.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore

And more from GD III:

I have several of each awaiting time and inclination, as the Tower of Pisa said to Big Ben, "If you've got the time, I've got the inclination."

Glad I could add to the conversation but don't know about the turbo model other than I wish mine was!
Dan

Try the starter in the morning.

If the problem only occurs when the starter is hot, pour cold water on it to see if that helps. if so you may have a hot soak problem.

There have been posts on this.

Have you read the FAQ? - this issue is probably the same on 700/900 cars.

thanks but Art has the key. been dealing with reluctant starters since 1987. In fact I once toured Colorado with a screwdriver in hand.

But what he posted then was news to me, partwise.


I'm too lazy to search that thread...even though I responded to it.
Hopefully, Art will read this.

PS

the engine has been sitting for 5 hours so it's basically not hot.

No response from the attempt to start...no click ....

So there is a definitely a failuue to connect the current to the starter.

une catastrophe

oh wait, that's when I had a Peugeot

off to bed.