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Hey guys,
This thing is stressing me out and we need the car asap. It got really cold the other day and the car didn't want to start, battery is good and it felt like it was fuel related. The car got towed home and after that it started up and ran fine after a rough start. It was fine for a day then no start. I found that the intank pump didn't run so I swapped it out but still no start, it sounds like it almost want to start but misses with a hair. Then I remember something i red sometime that you should hear intank pump prime as the fuelpump relay clicks on the 2nd key position but it don't. Should it? Not sure what I should do next.
Thanks for taking your time!
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I was tripped up by this once trouble shooting. Not all do the "pump priming".
LH2.2 fuel injection does not prime but LH2.4 does. Those I know for certain at least on the 740s.
--
Paul NW Indiana '89 744 Turbo 180K/ '90 745 turbo 145K
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You know, I have a 245 '91 and it primes it. That along with something I red I thought they all did.
John
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Volvodad, Maplebones and Machineman;
So it started but I'm not sure I'm out of the hole yet.
Before I left to pick my wife up I thought I give it a last try, I cranked it for about six turns and then the battery died. "Well, well" I thought and jumped in the company car, picked my wife up and when I got back i was going to put the battery on charge. Since hope is the last thing that leaves I tried it again. It barely wanted to turn even once but "vroom" started it did.
That it started so easy is what makes me think that the problem is still there. Why would it suddenly start so easy after cranking it for so long earlier today and yesterday and just being close to start.
Tomorrow I'm going to do a big tune up with new plugs, air and fuel filter, clean the throttle body, flametrap and swap out the fuel check valve. got new bougicords, cap and rotor 2000 miles ago so they should be fine. If problem persist I'll be back.
Sometimes it get a little stressful when the only car we have fail and it is my wife that use it daily for work, I bike.
Again thanks for the support!
John
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Nice to hear back from you.
I would stay on the electrical side of things, unless, you are sure that you are not getting fuel up to the plugs right away. Do you crank it, for a no start and then check the plugs for wetness to arrive at this suspicion?
The fuel filter will not cause this problem at the engine is using the least amount of fuel that it does going down the road. If you had running problems with it then yes be suspicious.
It's like a low fuel tank and then a full tank and things go away. Bad in tank pump.
The Mai pump check valve is similar but tank fullness has no play. Loss of line pressure takes cranking to replace fuel. If you are going there anyway, it makes sense to exchange the filter.
When ever I go to work on any electrical ran machinery, that won't run, I have to say, I always start at its supply. I used to maintain a commercial kitchen and they used "hosed" water on everything.
I have found tripped electric breakers, fuses inside equipment blown. Mostly likely one out of three, or plainly the unit not plugged in all the way. Especially, those type plugs that have to be twisted to lock and connect into place.
With that said, I would make sure the main cables are in great condition. No corrosion up under the ends of the insulation. Have the inside of the clamps and have both posts clean as well.
Check the connection down at the starter and the wire that runs around to the alternator and its ground wire from the housing. The charging from the alternator goes back to the battery this way, as it is a two way street from the starter up.j
Check the ground wire on the engine block and to the body on the fender. When I say check may mean you have to remove and clean them. Those simply looking ground wire(s) are half of the a circuit and carry more than one circuit at a time.
The problem usually lies out of sight, underneath the bolts or terminals. If you have not cleaned them in a long time, like in more than two years in salt country, at least loosen and retighten.
If things change dramatically right after that, you just shook hands with the gremlin.
Science dictates to do one thing at a time, if you really want to get a finite answer.
ASAP screws us all over!
Since you changed out the ignition components it does not sound so promising. Unless it's a bad rotor button I surmise the ignition is ok. The car runs good right?
When starting the rotor can develop an intermittent issue just before it totally fails. This is because it has a resistor inside that can go funky and more sensitive to damp conditions. I carry a spare, used one, that I knew worked once before too!
When you did wires, did you change out the wire to the coil? I have seen some kits that do not provide them. It really is a "main dude" in the scheme of things!
I also try to find wire(s) that use brass terminals on the ends of their wires. There are many that don't, but use TIN instead! I know what cans do.
Bougicord is a good wire company. I'm more partial to those metal cap ones. The rubber one do work though.
I own a Chevy 454 piece of crap. I use ceramic ends and fiberglass boots over them to keep wires on it! I even built metal heat shields up around them too! No issues now! Before that they melted from radiated heat.
I like the European style steel (is an alloy) wire clip on the plug end. IMO they do not get sprung open, like the others, when twisted and wiggled when being removed. After all, it is a spring up in there doing their job.
Metal ends seem to be optional on the sets I have seen of lately. Maybe for other cars and to competitive price wise or pound foolish? To each their own!
Chase that gremlin!
Phil
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Hello Phil!
This is getting silly. It started fine this morning so I dropped wife off at work so I could work on the car. I've been short of time/lazy with maintenance and I guess this is the payback. Swapped the plugs and air filter, cleaned throttle body, checked vac hoses and grounds you mentioned. Ran into trouble when I changed the fuel filter. Never did it before and probably no one have done it for 20 years from the looks of it. Anyways, to release the fuel pressure I pulled the fuses for both pumps (4 and 6) and started the engine to let it die. Well it didn't die so I checked the pumps and the main was still running! I didn't think that would be possible with the fuses out? So I unplugged the pump down at the pump. Now, after the filter swap (I didn't dare to touch the check valve, too much corrosion) the main pump don't start. Was it bad to unplug it down at the pump? When I jump the fuses to engage it I hear a little thud and I can feel it twerk for a 1/10 of a second then quiet. Almost get the feeling it tries to start but something is blocking it and it gives up. I banged it a bit to see if it would change it's mind but no luck. Gremlin still at large.
I need a beer.
Take care,
John
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I have to say, that before this is over, you are gonna need to drink a big can of V-8 juice to stop getting hit in the head.
Is the main pump also as old as the filter. That's looking the gremlin in the eye, if so!
These pump last a long, long time but there is a limit short of forever!
They have brushes like starters and alternators.
If that pump has corrosion on the outside, why not the connectors. The insides that grip the pins on the pump may have broke off or be so bad they said, in French, "c'est la vie." Or the end of life, in
your case.
The trick about the fuses I have heard of before from Art Benstein. He says you can take all the fuses out of the panel on some cars and still drive the car for a short while. I'm sure he mentioned without a few things on. Sorry, I don't remember the finer details of that post. Maybe lights?
I have no idea why he tried that to begin with. I could do that but it would be purely by accident of forgetfulness.
If you ever had the battery being run down low on you lately, it might be that a relay contact sticks closed. That pump might have a lot of wear on it!
Yep, fishy is a good word or something rotten near Denmark. These cars come from near there you know! (:-)
That trip to the back of the garage, now what a surprise that must have been a payback all right!
Phil
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I got the main swapped out too so know it's just a waiting game. The poor 245 91' has been losing parts too the point where it will never be fixed again. Hopefully it's not mad for being a donor, it is saving my 88's life. If it wasn't for the sentimental value I'd probably sold it for an electric car, I've developed an allergy to some of the chemicals used with these cars. But I grew up in Volvo land when volvos was still Volvos, my family always drove Volvo, my grandfather and uncle worked for volvo so it's hard to let it go.
Thanks guys for helping out and Phil your lighthearted posts was a good read when the stress was eminent.
John
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Hi there,
Yes, in position two the pumps will have to run. This car does not do the pre-pump mode. That started with the newer Crank Position Sensor and the "in cabin" electronic ignition modules.
If you have the black box over by the alternator there is a chance that the plug on it may have been damaged if someone ever pulled the plug. I hope it's not the case.
This engine will not start until the ECU get a signal from the distributor hall sensor. This item tells the ECU that the engine is turning over.
At this time the ECU turns on a "system relay" located behind the glove box.
These are prone to failure. Most of the time it is a cracked solder joint that cause one side or the other to fail to turn on. It can be repaired in most cases by doing a reflow of solder on the joint pins.
One side being the fuel pumps and the other being the fuel injectors.
You can imagine the result of that. This can cause the intermittent hard to starts.
Bad ignition components do the same things. Wet wires, distributor cap or rotor button gives you the same deal.
Keeping the ignition in good shape saves a lot of starter wear. Not nice to change on a cold winter day.
A bad ignition spark system can cause flooding of cylinders and the following rough start or idle.
Look for vacuum air leaks from the AMM and back towards the engine if you are having idling issues.
The other posts are all good things to check and do if the car has been neglected regular maintenance.
If you or others, the whiners stressing you out, want to depend on a car so much, then, doing maintenance is like paying an employee(s) regularly, to be there!
I truly believe in getting the "whiners" involved. Let them know how to help, especially boys, since they put miles on it, as well.
I don't like stress either!
Phil
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Remove the fuse box door and rotate - several turns - all fuses in their holders. If you find one that feels looser in the holder than others, remove it, squeeze the holder tabs together a little and reinsert fuse.
My no-start condition was cured by ensuring that all fuses (esp the fuel pump ones) were making solid contact.
Some years of the 240 had systems that buzzed the pumps for a second or two at key-on, some didn't. Those who know may chime in.
--
Bob: Son's XC70, my 83 244DL, 89 745 (Chev LT-1 V8), 98 S90 (recently sold) and 2010 XC60. Also '77 MGB and four old motorcycles
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Thanks Volvodad for replying.
Went out and checked/cleaned all fuses but still no luck.
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If you have jumpered fuses and that makes the pumps run, put the jumper in place (pumps running) and try to start. If it starts, suspect the fuel pump relay for reasons as machine man points out.
If no start, ignition becomes the prime suspect. Pull off a spark plug lead and insert a spare plug, held firmly against the engine. Watch the plug gap while someone cranks the engine - you should see a spark and hear it (snap-snap-snap).
If no spark, the prime suspect here is the Hall sensor in the distributor which sends ignition signals to the ignition control unit by the W/S washer reservoir.
There are many other reasons for no spark, but let us know how these tests go.
--
Bob: Son's XC70, my 83 244DL, 89 745 (Chev LT-1 V8), 98 S90 (recently sold) and 2010 XC60. Also '77 MGB and four old motorcycles
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Hi,
I'm not sure if it's all LH 2.2 cars, but 88 is one of the non- buzzers.
Jump fuses 4 and 6 if you want to hear the pumps run with the key on.
Peter
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Hey Peter, thanks for responding.
Ok good to hear. I get them to run by jumping the fuses. Before I replaced intank pump only the main ran. Should the tank pump run while trying cranking it? I can't say I hear it when I do. I did check the pump relay while cranking and both little tabs clicked so it's gotta send power to the pumps then right?
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Hi Benzo,
As far as I understand it, once you've jumped the fuses, the pumps stay on. They stay on in all key positions, and even with it in your pocket.
If you can hear the pumps and have fuel in the tank, I would move on and verify spark at the plugs.
Peter
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