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My 245 has just developed a weird symptom. When I start it cold it runs but struggles. The exhaust smells like crap and the the engine just doesn't idle up on its own. If I gas it, it hesitates but eventually reaches normal operating idle but then as I drive it will seem to be fine until I pull into the drive and put her in park. Then the idle bumps up higher than normal. The computer is not pulling up any codes. The only issues, which I believe are not related, is that the speedometer will bounce once in awhile when I hit the brake but only when parked or stopped at a light. The car also zaps me when I get out. I know this is probably a ground but anyways these things have been there for a long time and did not affect the way the car ran. Any ideas? I need my baby to not brake down in the next two weeks because she is my work wagon. Any help is sincerely appreciated.
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Hi there,
In reading over the posts from others I see a common thread with Arts possible power problem being very likely.
You spoke of the speedometer needle doing the bounce thing.
That usually can be seen with these electronic speedometers when they are first fired up on the ignition key.
I think the incoming power spikes the circuit and have seen the needle bounce.
Now how the brake pedal can do this. I don't know but if there is a bad connection or low power coming in on the system, the brake lights load might weaken the input to the speedometer.
I admit my thoughts seems far fetched though.
The ECU diagnostics and the ECU using a speedometer output, somewhere close to or in the 90's cars, this could cause strange responses, besides removing the memories.
I like the idea of the two prong fuse block for this and the wire from the battery to the junction block on the fender.
About the engine running with stink and drop in mileage, I want to suspect the Engine Coolant Sensors input to the ECU. A bad FPR is also a good suspect for excess for this as well.
One might learn a lot by taking a good look at the ECU connection.
Probe pins inside it for power input voltage drop and the resistances range from the ECS.
The static discharge from the body to the car is usually a clothing preference.
Sliding against some Wool or some polymer cloths can cause electrical discharges.
Using Shepherd or Plastic seat covers and adding in some medium dry hot weather helps and cold dry mornings temperatures can cause sparks.
Good luck and keep us posted. You symptoms on the car are interesting.
Phil
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Tomorrow is the big day and I'd like to thank you, Art, Trevor, and others for helping me get a plan of attack together. I did cure the bouncy speedo thing already. That turned out to be a loose connection on the back of the instrument cluster. I'm getting a more consistent temperature reading now as well . It used to say the engine was chilly most of the time. Now it sits in the middle. I wonder about the ECU. I did use it to pull a code 2 months ago for the speedometer sensor thingy. When I removed that cable from the top of the tranny it was clearly shot. It's lucky the car was still running because they typically don't if that wire is compromised. Anyways, after I fixed it and cleared the codes everything was good. I will clean up all the wires, that 25 amp fuse, the grounds that Art suggested, and check for Vacuum issues that Trevor mentioned and report back.
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Alrighty,
I finally got to working on my brick. New timing belt, water pump, and I got the alternator to sit straight again. Unfortunately, the coolant pipe that goes into the back of the water pump is leaking a little bit due to pitting I hope. I took it off and made a big mess once already to re-seat it and it still leaks occasionally. None of these things really had to do with the original problem though. So back to that. The car starts a little sometimes. One time it didn't start at all and I had to jump the starter with the dip stick. It had this problem once before which had to do with the connections at the battery. So even though all that looks clean and tight I will go through that again. Once running and warm it sounds great but it still occasionally idles high. My biggest mystery though is a noise around the throttle body when I crack the throttle. It is kind of hard to describe. It sounds kind of like someone sucking through a straw and then it stops suddenly when I close the throttle. It is not constant and it definitely is not the fuel regulator or the vacuum line to the heat controls. It is pretty loud. The wifes 245 does not make that noise. Any ideas if something around or in the throttle body would make such a noise?
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Try taking a paper towel core and hold it to your ear.
Locate a general area or the location as it might be beneficial to us to come up with possibilities.
I almost want to say it's in the area of the brake booster, a cracked hose or the face of the check valve.
Crack appear on the under side of most hoses. They do this just so they can be difficult to find.
Whoops, guess that was more than almost!
Phil
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Clean the throttle body
Clean the IAC
Check for vac leaks in particular areas that would tend to open up when cold
90% of the time one of those three are your issue but...
My 940 was displaying half of these symptoms (rough cold idle and difficulty rev'ing cold) and it was a one-off ignition component issue. Basically the spark was having to jump a gap between the sparkplug nipple and stud before jumping the gap at the other end of the plug on two different plugs.
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Going to go through all those things this Thursday. I rebuilt my motor about four years ago and cleaned all that stuff up so I'm not sure I'll find anything but at this point I need to try everything. The mileage has dropped and it smells like ass on star up. Today it almost didn't once and then started fine afterward. I remember last winter the mileage went down as well. I'm gonna clean the fuse panel, replace fuses, clean grounds, replace spark plugs and wires, and check for vacuum leaks. I did bounce around the motor with propane and got no results but I will pull and check them anyways. Just seems strange that two or three weeks ago everything was great and then this. I wish the computer would pull a code.
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Something is wrong with your ECU or the diagnostic function if your car isn't setting codes with those symptoms. Or, the codes are being set, but because the power to the ECU (through the red wire and 25A fuse) is intermittent, the codes are being wiped every time you look.
Look that wire over carefully. Check for 111 and smelly exhaust (they should not exist together) and if so, get a meter on the oxygen sensor as Trev suggests.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
There are 10 different kinds of people.
Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
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Also, loosen and re-tighten the two bolts fastening the fuel rail where the fuel management system gets its grounds.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Three men were sentenced to be executed by guillotine; a priest, a Muslim, and an engineer.
first was the priest and he asked that he face upwards so he could look at Heaven and his Creator. his wish was granted and the blade fell, but stopped 1/2 inch from his neck. the executioner said since the guillotine spared him, so was his life and he was allowed to leave.
next was the Muslim and he asked that he also be allowed to face upwards to look to Allah before his death. again the guillotine stopped just short and his life was spared as well.
the engineer was last and he too asked to face upwards given what happened with the first two. as he lay there, he looked up at the mechanism and said, "Aha, i see the problem!".
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Here is the latest in my progress. I did find that the grounds on the intake were a bit played out. The holes on the eyelets were rounded out and there wasn't a whole lot of meat left on them so I replaced those. The O2 sensor checked out and there wasn't much inside the throttle body to clean out. What I did find will inspecting everything was not good. Apparently, the rubber mushroom gasket on the top of the water pump has been compromised. It wasn't leaking often or very much but occasionally it looks like it was belching fluid. I don't know if antifreeze is corrosive but the poly bushing in the alternator adjustment bracket was shot. The poly was all cracked and gooey. Those are my scientific observations. Also, even though I had poly bushings in the alternator bracket as well, the back hole of the alternator ovaled out and the long bolt that mounts it is worn thin were it goes through that hole. I suspect that the screw was the culprit so I will replace that with a grade 8 if I can find one round here. This is my bosh alternator purchased last year so I'm not to thrilled with that finding. This caused the alternator to have a slight kick to it and for one belt to be grabbing more than the other. So, I have everything apart and today will be installing new water pump, timing belt, thermostat, spark plugs and wires, and all new fuses. I'm going to look into drilling out that hole in the alternator and putting a sleeve in. Just really worried about the quality of that metal. I'm hoping that when all this is done the original problem of weird idle and start will disappear.
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Sounds like your work wagon is creating weekend projects for you.
The alternator mounting ear egg-out is a common result of too-tight belts and ruined rubber bushings and a loosened locknut. I've heard some poly bushings fall apart in no time, but no one comes back and says why-- they just blame the manufacturer -- or worse, the store selling them. No feedback on the oil/heat/belt-adjustment factors.
I'm not sure, but I believe I have seen those housings sleeved. Like maybe the later ones from Bosch are. Anyhow, you need the new bolt, a new all-metal lock nut, and another alt -- or see if you have a local rebuilder who can spiff it up for you. I use the rubber bushings. Just the buck-and-a-half rubber ones, not OE Genuine Volvo, and have OK service as long as there's no oil running over them. That's what kills your water pump donut seal too -- the oil.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Those who get too big for their britches will be exposed in the end.
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Hey Art!
That is exactly what the bolt hole in my alternator looks like! Maybe I had it too tight and the water pump did see its fair share of oil last year before I replaced the Cam shaft seal last year. I just got a new grade 8 bolt and hardware. But before I put that sucker on I am going to bring it down to a shop near here that specializes in rebuilding them and see what they say. As always thanks for your help!
Matt
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May I make a suggestion to see if it will work for you.
Take one of the old rubber bushings and cut the sleeve out of it.
Using a drill or I prefer an end mill, to open up the hole in the alternator housing and insert that bushing.
Even if you do not get a press fit (you can peen it, if you like) it will repair the hole with steel. This will now be of a larger diameter touching aluminum.
The larger steel diameter will spread the load by increasing it into larger internal surface area. The contact area with the aluminum will no longer get beat out into dust.
The strength of the bolt was not the issue here. It was tightness and alignment.
I did away with rubber bushings down there. I went solid PVC bar stock with fixed shoulders. I bored the bracket holes round, in-line straight and parallel with the base.
These brackets were sand casted instead of investment casted and are sloppy. I believe it's the reason for rubber. They slop or slapped together!
Not one of Volvo's finest minutes, in their hour of fame! IMHO
By the way almost all bolts use on accessories and are a grade five. You can use any bolt that has three or more radial bars on the head.
Regular old hardware bolts are a grade TWO. Come with No bars or smooth heads. They are considered to be made with butter metal in our mechanical trades.
The three bars and the background two, will make it a grade five. A grade eight will have six.
Grade nines come with paper trails and batch certificates and should have a dollars sign on them! (:)
Metric's use a number system that I'm not up to snuff on! I'm sure it's just as simple. Little Numbers like 10.6 They are not bolt or mm head sizes. You got to learn those like counting backwards.
FYI
Phil
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Heya Machine Man!
Thanks for the intel. I am definitely going to try and save the alternator via the method you suggested. Now you got me thinking about the bushings. I never even knew you could buy solid PVC stock until now. My buddy works at granger and I bet he can grab me some for free. Anyways, I had some questions about your method. You said,"I went solid PVC bar stock with fixed shoulders." I'm not sure what fixed shoulders means? And then "I bored the bracket holes round, in-line straight and parallel with the base." By bracket holes you mean you bored through the pvc a hole to receive the bolt? That part has me baffled. I'm definitely not up on my fabrication jargon. I do have a drill press that is really lonely in the basement. Anyways, FCP sent me a water pump with a split o-ring so I got a day or two to attempt this PVC idea.
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Hi Matt,
When I was talking about the shoulders, I was meaning to reference the shape of the original bushings and their shoulders.
I wanted to do away with the whole idea of squishy rubber. The rubber bushings compensate for and can compound the misalignment of the brackets casted holes when aged.
The holes in the bracket have taper, out of roundness and axial alignments issues that are equal to that of a noodle! Rubber self aligns and conforms, sort of!
I suspect that when they machined the bolting base, they aligned or did not align, to the inside of those holes because of these variances. They could have used cones built onto a fixture that only locates the front edges. They also could have just bumped up to an outside reference someplace which ends up with the same results.
The bracket was made fast and dirty. It might be design to be a generic to fit "open sourced" alternators models as well!
Either way, it's just laziness from the get go! The whole rubber thing threw curves into manufacturing slack as in "it won't matter!" Ha!
I could have used aluminum or steel but plastic is easier to obtain, cost effective, lighter and more fun to machine.
I also made my solid bushings slightly larger after boring the bracket. A nice slip fit for my fresh smooth and straight holes in the alternator bracket.
The shoulders are needed to lock the alternator housing from moving back and forth. The bushings length fill the gap and locate the alternator pulley in line with the water pump and crankshaft.
You can make slight adjustments to get a better alignment in that direction too.
You end up with a solid mounting for the pivot point on the bolt.
Yes the PVC gets a hole in the middle for the bolt to go through.
When I said for you to use a steel bushing out of the rubber bushing I was suggesting a repair for the alternator housing only.
If you make your own plastic bushing, you could forget the repair on the alternator.
The faces of the new hard mount bushing will lock up and square up on the alternators faces.
As it works in the rubber there are no support surfaces. The steel bushings just lock up on narrow faces and pinch a little. Your hole in the alternator yelled, "I got loose, ha ha!"
I don't know how you will straighten up your bracket with out line boring it to the machined surface that bolts to the engine?
I have a milling machine and right angle plates to bolt it up to.
A milling machine is a very heavy drill press, so you know I don't have a drill press.
I'm like Tom Selleck in Quigley Down Under... He said..."I said, I never cared for them (pistols) much but I didn't say, I didn't know how to use one."
If you were very creative and careful it could be done as there is not much soft aluminum metal to be removed out of the wrong places.
I hope I have not steered you to place that might lead to a waste of time for you.
I did rattle on in both these posts!
Phil
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Machine Man!,
Thanks for the explanation. I decided that since I must have over tightened the belts the first time that I should try that pvc idea. I am not one to normally over tighten stuff so I wonder if maybe, just maybe, Bosh uses cores from old alternators and I just got the case with a little play in the bolt hole. I'm just looking for someone to blame for this and spare some self esteem for my next mess-up. Anyways, I have to go to a pick and pull for a tranny mount soon and while I'm there I will grab an extra bracket and old alternator. That way i can play around. I also, have a neighbor that works in a machine shop that claims he can make me anything. He recently broke my chain saw so he better be able to make me anything. In the meantime though I do have some of those metal sleeves that you mentioned so I will go ahead and do the repair that way. I cut those sleeves up once already to shim my power steering pump forward when I took out the ac compressor. I figure doing both the pvc and the repair of the oval bolt hole will only make it stronger.
Hey Thanks again!
I will keep ya'll posted
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"I'm gonna clean the fuse panel, replace fuses, clean grounds, replace spark plugs and wires, and check for vacuum leaks."
Check for vacuum leaks first. And check the voltage output of the O2 sensor.
--
1980 245 Canadian B21A with SU carb, M46 trans, 3:31 dif, in Brampton, Ont.
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