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Hey guys, I'm at a loss on this one and am hoping someone can help me? Car is a 1990 240dl with lh2.4 and automoatic transmission
Shortish backstory, about a month ago coming back from the beach we're driving down the highway about an hour and a half into a 5 hour drive when out of no where the car starts surging like it's running out of gas - it has 3/4 tank at that time - before it eventually dies. I pull over and try to restart it but nothing. Engine tries to crank but it won't turn over. Unplug the amm doesn't do anything. We wait about an hour for AAA when for shits I tried it one last time and it fires. It runs and drives like nothing happened for about another hour and a half before it does the surging thing again and eventually dies. Same story again, we wait a while and then the car starts like nothing is wrong.
When we got home I replaced the fuel pressure regulator, o2 sensor, amm with a known good unit, and the intake tube with the throttle body gasket as there was a split in the accordian portion of the tube. This does not fix the problem. Hour and a half into my fiancee driving from Atlanta to Burlington NC it strands her on the side of I-85.
We got it home and I replaced the intake and main pump along with the fuel pump relay. I though I had fixed the problem, though when it is cold going up the hill out of my subdivision it would do the stall thing but not totally die and this would go away once the car was warm.
Then today, I'm driving home and it starts to stumble then stalls out and will not restart. I spent about 4 hours today trying to trouble shoot it and I still can not get it to restart and am at a loss as to where to look now. It doesn't throw any codes from #2 or #6 on the obd blinky light. I unplugged the amm and tried it, nothing. Unplugged the o2 sensor and tried it, nothing. I pulled a spark plug and rested it against the shock tower so I could see it while cranking and it is getting spark. I jumpered the #4 and #6 fuses for the fuel pump and tried it but still nothing. Plugs, wires, cap, and rotor are all new as of this past spring.
Only left with the ignition coil itself, powerstage or crank position sensor? They're all of unknown age. I get spark when I pull a plug so I'm left thinking the power stage and coil are still okay?
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Okay so check this out. Got home from work today and just for shits tried to start it and it started right up. Idles a little rough but it does have 280k on it.
So, to me this seems ignition related. Like the coil, power supply, or cps gets too hot and stops working.
Thoughts?
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i agree it is ignition related of which there are only 3 things apart from a short in a harness it could be
coil, cps, ignition amplifier
coil is my first opinion
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I'm getting the following measurements on my multimeter with the guy turned to position 2.
-1 to +15 = 0.6
-1 to secondary = 8.7
+15 to secondary = 7.9
Seems to be in spec?
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Test the power stage/ignition amplifier too. Apply new conduction paste.
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I pulled the power stage out of my '91 240 wagon, which I know works, to test the power stage. Now I just unplugged the old out of my sedan and plugged the one out of my wagon in. I didn't unbolt the whole module from the fender so hopefully this is okay.
Went to crank it and still doesn't want to fire. It cranks and cranks. Sometime it will fire for a second but never really gets running.
Thoughts?
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Thoughts?
Stop checking out people's guesses and verify the ignition system is indeed the system which needs your help. It has been a week now?
Momentarily remove the vacuum hose from the intake manifold which supplies the fuel pressure regulator, and squirt 1 second's worth of ether in through the straw. Replace the hose. Immediately attempt to start it.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
All the trouble I've ever been in started out as fun.....
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It runs!
Okay so the fuel pump relay is the thing here. I just bought a new one from Voluparts in Atlanta a couple of wheels ago when it did the initial bogging after the beach trip so I had assumed - I know assumptions - that it was good. I took some rubber bands, as suggested, to push the two contacts in the relay together and it fired right up and runs without any bogging.
It was one of these:
http://www.amazon.com/VOLVO-240-Fuel-Pump-Relay/dp/B007EUKLXA
Never again on aftermarket relays. Calling Volvo right now to get a Volvo relay.
Thank you thank you for helping me!
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But it has run several times in the course of this thread. And then later not run. Surely it is an intermittent problem, and I hope it is indeed some intermittent fault you cannot see in the new replacement fuel relay, just so as not to be a buzzkill. Are you really confident enough now to send your intended down I85 in this car by herself?
Main thing to take from this is to avoid the scatter gun troubleshooting, but instead use a methodical approach, verifying each component of a running internal combustion engine before jumping on part swap ideas.
It is much more likely that the socket your fuel relay plugs into has a poor connection. Plug your old one in and VERIFY the problem returns.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
"Carefully pry (If this were a Jaguar you would prise)..." -BrickDad
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Ground wire joint on one injector wire looks like this
https://flic.kr/p/ym64hS
Ground wire joint on the other injector wire looks like this
https://flic.kr/p/ym64hS
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I'm getting 20.7 omhs at the plug for the computer between #9 and 18.
Getting 20.8 at each injector if I ground my black probe and insert the red probe into one of the injector plug terminals. I get 0.0 between the two terminals in the plug. Green book says injectors should be 16.
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I'll swing by autozone on my way home.
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Pulled the old cps out and was little of the black insulation was left did have a yellow stripe on it. Lots of spots with totally exposed wire. Swapped them out and it starts and ran for about half a minute and then died. Went and restarted it and it fired right up but ran for a shorter period of time then died. Repeat repeat until it finally is back to not starting. The coil doesn't feel hot but again seems like whatever gets hot and then stops working.
I'm sure the coil is original. Can I get another Bosch coil for it or are there better options?
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When you catch it again not starting, verify the spark using the starting fluid you picked up at the store.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
"Doc, I can't stop singing 'The Green, Green Grass of Home.'" "That sounds like Tom Jones Syndrome." "Is it common?" Well, "It's Not Unusual."
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if you are getting spark at a plug then your coil, cps and power stage are working.
if your coil is weak you might show spark but insufficient to run the engine.
the cps is worth a good look see so you know what you have.
nothing you have written suggests you currently have a fuel problem.
check your fuel rail grounds by unbolting them and cleaning them and re-bolting them.
based upon all you have done and what you have written i would suspect the coil is weak to failing.
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I'm going to go down to voluparts and grab a new crank position sensor this afternoon. I know that sensor is at least 7 or 8 years old so even if that's not what's wrong it would be helpful to know it's at least new working.
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Get a can of starting fluid.
Make sure your battery has been fully recharged.
Momentarily remove the vacuum hose from the intake manifold which supplies the fuel pressure regulator, and squirt 1 second's worth of ether in through the straw. Replace the hose. Immediately attempt to start it.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
REAL men don't need voltmeters.
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Alrighty, spraying some starter fluid into the nipple where the fpr vac line plugs into gets the car to start for a little bit. So there is spark.
Now, when I turn the car on to position 2 I can hear the pump turn on so I know the pump is good. Reasons for the injectors not injecting? Bad ground somewhere?
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"I can hear the pump turn on so I know the pump is good."
This car only has one pump, right? What is the pressure at the rail?
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Deja Moo: The feeling that you've heard this bull before.
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Not sure what pressure at the rail is. I don't have a gauge to test it...I'll look at the shop tomorrow and see if there is one I can borrow.
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I'm getting 20.7 omhs at the plug for the computer between #9 and 18.
Getting 20.8 at each injector. Green book says injectors should be 16.
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Just a thought about what you are doing.
I think you are getting to technical in troubleshooting.
Art got you going down the right path to clear any issues with the spark and engine components working.
You say when you put the switch in position two and you hear the main pump run. This is a stage set up by the ECU of pre pressuring the fuel rail for a quicker start.
I know it does this on my '91.
A relay turns the main pump on through a system relay under the glove box.
There is also a set of seperate contacts that operates the fuel injection system. Both sets of contacts are suppose to come on at the same time. Maybe one is not always making up nicely?
Have you tried to opening up this system relay up?
What I would do is this:
Remove the relay and inspect the terminals of the socket first. Checking for corrosion or overheating and like you said any grounding terminal wire from that socket.
I think there might be one from the body of the car to it but I'm not sure. If the relay is working at all it is probably not the problem!
Next, pop the cover off and observe the contacts for smut or burning. They will probably look pretty normal as those guys don't give up lots of clues. Bad solder joints catch the blame more!
Next, take a rubber band and wrap it around and over the the plate that pushes the contacts down closed. This may or may not make the pump run with the key off, I don't remember!
Go ahead and try to start the car. If the CPS is working the car should start and run.
The starting fluid procedure, you just did, got you past knowing it works.
The rubber band completes a fuel injector circuit from the ECU. IF you cut or lift the rubber band the engine quits.
It's really a dual safety relay!
You could look it as a pain in the butt though!
It's like, if you were in charge of a factory assembly line but have a not so "conscientious " employee.
He fails to come in occasionally or now someone notices, a little late, he is in the darn machine but the rest of the line can work. On your car, you are still looking for him!
Again, I don't know if the pump stops and that why you cannot not leave it that way as it will run down the battery, if nothing else!
Probably the same for certain connections within the fuse panel.
These various circuits are not acknowledge, to me, for being tattooed on the back of my hand. (:-)
If they were on my buttocks, would I be more, hip? (:-)
The panel and early cars are the reasons I'M CONFUSED to what exactly happens.
Do you bypass or do you engage the relay? I have wondered if the fuse panel is for the PUMPS ONLY testing.
You might be able to start the car but does in rule in or out the socket or relay is properly functioning?
It's best to Carry a spare!
It is like having a trained floor sweeper for that spot, in the scenario above!
I have driven home with a "dusty" shoe lace, tied around one of the two identical relays of my '84. It's the year before they combined the two seperate relays, on '85 and later cars!
The one had a coil finally burn out out. It was an occasional no start on the first try of the key. The final time, it just stopped while traveling down a no traffic street.
I trouble shot it right there! A Leatherman knife jumper in the panel, to confirm the pump worked and opened the metal can covered relay. The shoe lace, well, it kinda stepped in front of me! (:-)
Happy tinkering to ya!
Phil
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It runs!
Okay so the fuel pump relay is the thing here. I just bought a new one from Voluparts in Atlanta a couple of wheels ago when it did the initial bogging after the beach trip.
It was one of these:
http://www.amazon.com/VOLVO-240-Fuel-Pump-Relay/dp/B007EUKLXA
Never again on aftermarket relays. Calling Volvo right now to get a Volvo relay.
Thank you thank you all for helping me!
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Hey that sounds great!
I didn't know you had already put a new one in.
Sure hope that ends the hunt with all those other symptoms going on.
Did you inspect the wiring and those terminals really good?
If that's the only thing you changed the problem must be in your hands,
Happy Motoring!
Phil
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I see what you're saying.
I'll give it a shot and see what it does. The relay was replaced with a new one about a month ago but it is an aftermarket relay. I suppose it could have given up the ghost. Stranger things have happened.
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Why would hearing the pump(s) run lead you to believe you have adequate fuel pressure or flow? Test it.
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I'll do this.
If it starts then the engine isn't getting fuel which would lead me where?
If it doesn't start the engine isn't getting spark which leads me to where?
Thanks!
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"If it starts then the engine isn't getting fuel which would lead me where?"
Almost always fuel related electronics. Your fault trace from hot side of that 25 amp fuse backward until you find a spot where electrons stop flowing. First, I would try the jumper on cleanflametrap.com just in case you have one of the last remaining white-label ECU's (Art has all the rest).
"If it doesn't start the engine isn't getting spark which leads me to where?"
Everything from the coil wire (more common on the 7/9-series) partially pulling out of the coil to the crank position sensor to the ignition power stage. Your symptoms sound like like the ignition power stage got smoked (probably from no thermal paste left on the back of them module) but do not get hung up on that.
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sand the base of the power stage to make sure there is good contact..w a ground.
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As I recall w my 245 there was a problem w the knock sensor,,so I replaced that & also the cps .So i wrapped it w aluminum tape from Home depot,,,as a temp fix,
Problem w these cars is that they last so long,,If you find a parts car its good to grab a box full of spare parts..to have to switch out
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Its late at night and I may have missed this if you wrote it: have you replaced the, I think its a 25amp fuse, in a small box inside the engine compartment, at the left, (drivers side fender)? Easy to see, just lean over the fender, open that little-(ish) box. Many a brick has died,(including ours, long ago) but risen after replacing that fuse.
Good luck.
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Yes I've replaced this fuse with a brand new one.
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Verify that the 25 amp fuseholder and the wire from it are in good condition. Either can cause a stall too. My fuseholder was so badly corroded on my 90 240 that I ended up replacing that with the fuse.
Some other possibilities:
1. Did you mention the computer?
2. Even though you have spark at the wires, I'd still test the coil and power stage. With the CPS look for frayed or worn insulation. They can all act up intermittently!
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