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Hey guys, let me preface this with saying that I'm new here. I've been searching posts related to my issues for a while now, but after swapping out both fuel pumps, the relay, checked the fuel pressure regulator and no fuel was in the line and cleaning the contacts on the fuses I'm still having the same issue.
Hot or cold starting is a headache in itself. Sometimes my 91 245 will start right up without hesitation, and sometimes it takes a few cranks to start it, which leads into another issue. As I try to get it going down the road sometimes it'll go without problems, but most times it'll rev for a second then it'll kill itself, almost as if it gets starved of fuel. On occasion when I get it to a point where it will drive down the road, it will hiccup, especially when I put my foot down and it changes gears. It also dies when I'm at a stoplight and give it gas, unless I feather the gas peddle and keep my foot on the brake.
I have checked for spark and it has nice blue spark from the plugs, I have yet to check compression, but I'm sure that fine too, because when it does run, it purs, and it has a good solid idle.
What do you guys think?
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It would be helpful to have some history: how long you've owned the car, when the problems began, any change when you replaced parts, .... the time it sits and you have good/bad hot/cold starts (a poor hot start is sometimes a leaking injector) ... have you checked vacuum hoses, throttle body, ....
Fuel problems could include filter and/or a cracked rubber hose between the sender pickup tube and in-tank pump.
Bad wires/ dist cap/ rotor can cause problems that are inconsistent.
--
240 drivers / parts cars - JH, Ohio
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Spark: Intermittent troubles like this make it hard to be sure that nice blue spark you see occurs when it should and during the failure event, so based on my experience with your EZ116K ignition, I would suggest swapping in a new crank position sensor. Also, depending on your tolerance for experimenting, I'd recommend reseating the connector on the power stage.
Fuel: If fuel is still suspected after doing the relay and fuse 6 contacts, have a look at the connector between the cabin harness and the engine harness. It is above your passenger's left knee, under the glove box. This is another weak spot in the circuit getting power to the main pump and, indeed, the entire fuel injection array.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
My dog is worried about the economy because Alpo is up to $3.00 a can.
That's almost $21.00 in dog money. -Joe Weinstein
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I sometimes think you folks leave stuff like this to me. Waking up from a nightmare. Oh, that's me as a violated U.S. citizen seeking asylum in Germany. Ha-ha. Where did Frank Forester Church III (D-Idaho) and his Committee go?
Harrison C. Stretz of Columbia, MO?
Valkommen to the to brickboard.com!
Are you attending ol' Mizzou or are working at the recently opened IBM facility, or something else?
I'd hope to earn a Rhetoric PhD, yet Mizzou puts it Rhetoric PhD in a stupid English Department, versus, say a Rhetoric or, better, Communication Studies Department.
Prescient and extemporaneous.
Typically, your fault diagnosis starts dry (electrics and mechanicals) before having to crack the fuel system open.
The brickboard.com, and other Volvo automobile enthusiast sites, are all replete with information on fault diagnosis. So, I'd say you could spend much more time in your research of this and other such forums. You can use the brickboard.com search. Or you can use a web search tool. While Bing seems to be improving, you'd be best to use Google.
Do you own a service manual to provide guidance in fault diagnosis and repair procedure? If mechanically literate, you can find the Volvo OEM factory service "green" manuals (the cover is green - still can't find mine, save for Volvo 164 manuals) online in a media runtime format (stupid, insecure Adobe Flash or Shockwave, MS Silverlight, or HTML 5). The other, perhaps better choice is the Bentley Volvo 240 Service and Maintenance Bible (best in the maroon hard cover imprint), available everywhere. Haynes, while not as good up to the late 1980s and later, can help in a pinch, yet specifications like fluids and torque values can be wrong in Haynes. Or they show a 140 front wheel hub in the 240 service manual. (Or put Dexron III into your power steering pump - you use Ford ATF "Type F" in that power steering reservoir, unless it's been replaced.)
How long have you owned your 1991 Volvo 240 Wagon? How many miles? Manual transmission or automatic? What color exterior / interior? Cloth interior or nasty vinyl or nasty leather?
Your 1991 Volvo 240 is now 24 years of age. You reside in the Missouri end of the snow and salty rust belt. While you are concerned with making your 240 'go', you have much work to do to make the investment in what is perhaps the lineage of the greatest automobiles ever constructed - RWD Volvo. The REAL people's car, well, I guess up until the Volvo AB Group sold to Ford and ruined it for everyone. But the drive for high-end luxury-only Volvo autos started at the end of the RWD Volvo era.
Though the first and most important thing any vehicle can do is STOP. How's the brake fluid in the brake fluid reservoir? Nice, bright transparent clear beige color to a transparent light tan at best. If darker, use the Motiv brand power or like brake fluid bleeder and push new DOT 3/4 through to the brake caliper bleeder nipples until you get clear fluid? Got ABS? You need to run the ABS pumps a little bit to flush out old fluid. My primary bent on service is safety first in all things transportation. I digress. I go off topic, sometimes. Rave about kitty cats and buttermilk. I'm from St. Louis, MO originally. So, I know MO and StL.
You now own a Volvo 240. That's a responsibility. Are you in for the long term? Ready to learn? Ready to care? And motor with impunity as we have these motoring Wi-Fi hackable drive-by-wire pieces of motoring junk? Well then ... if yes ... please proceed.
I'm also a writer, Harrison C. Stretz of Columbia, MO. A technical writer, primarily. I've come across your posts under hcsxc using Google before for some reason in the last few years.
Be nice if you could upload an image through the BrickPix image uploader available through your account. Use standard HTML to display the image like img src= blah blah. Blur out license plate numbers and the like. 640 x 640 pixels is the max image size.
You one an MG and a scooter, too?
So, work through the problem:
- Air intake system. Vacuum leaks. All them vacuum lines. From the air filter box back. The accordion-like black plastic hose between the AMM/MAF out and the throttle throttle body inlet can form holes by chafing on the inner fender and anything it contacts inside the engine bay. Ends of vacuum lines can split. If using mineral (dino) oil, and not synthetic, search this brickboard. and the FAQ to verify the PCVB system breathes properly and that the piping is not rife with vacuum leaks, and the oil separator breather box
Yet, wait ... got that silver hose between the air filter box bottom, that runs under the cooling fan cowl, and the heat shield on the exhaust manifold? Remove it. MO-state does not check emission devices, only wants to ensure you pass the safety (brake pad) inspection and the emissions tests using the exhaust gas analyzer up the tail pipe. Unless replaced, an ambient air / preheated air diverter valve in the air filter box gets stuck to open, and pulling in hot air in hot MO-state Summer through the air mass meter (AMM - or MAF mass air flow sensor), shall ruin it.
- The fuse box fuses can corrode at each contact end. Spin them to break the corrosion. I doubt this is your problem.
- See FAQ above, or reference your Volvo 240 service manual, on how to access the engine control OBD-1. I post and repost this information. So, find the FAQ page on OBD. The Volvo 240 uses the Bosch LH-Jetronic version 2.4 or 3.1 (on manual transmission, no EGR 240) fuel management / Bosch EZK 11x ignition and, if equipped, EGR control, if equipped with a LH-Jet 2.4 (what I have on my 1991 240 sedan / saloon).
See this page: https://www.brickboard.com/FAQ/700-900/FAQIndexNew1.htm
- Engine Starting
- OBD, Fuel, Sensors, Power Stage, and so on.
*** Such a problem as you describe may be a failing crank position sensor (CPS).
*** The other problem you may have is the throttle position switch (TPS) Bosch LH-Jet 2.4, or, if Bosch LH-Jet 3.1, it is a throttle position sensor (also TPS - yet is nothing more than a potentiometer [variable resister].
The OBD is useful, yet not always forthcoming. With a TPS failure, the OBD may not indicate the fault in socket 2 on the OBD test box. I discerned TPS failure before the OBD-1 displayed a fault code.
At 24 years, you may uncover other faults through the OBD and good diagnosis.
- Corrosion can be a problem. Corrosion can cause power failure to a fuel system device (in-tank pre-pump, main fuel pump), engine control sensors (poor connection at AMM, or a failed AMM, or failing CPS/RPM crank / engine position sensor) and devices (bad connection at ignition power stage. All bonded electrical connections where any conductor (wire or wire harness) run meets another (at a connector or connection to ground). In another current thread, per among the wisest sages (I'm not one) here, get some DeOxIt and treat them connections.
- The timing belt may be stretched or not properly tensioned. You can reset the tension and hope the timing belt did not skip a tooth one of the three timing belt pulleys. You replace the timing belt every 50k and the t-belt tensioner every second t-belt. ContiTech (Continental - Volvo OEM) makes a kit with the INA brand tensioner. (With a t-belt replacement, some will replace the water pump and front engine seals. To replace the timing belt, you need one Volvo tool counter hold tool, locking the harmonic balancer crank pulley in place as you remove the large retaining center bolt. Also, many will replace the three front engine oil seals at 50k or 100k or 150k or so. (The new viton (Sp? these are nitrile seals, the grey or brown ones?) seals last a very long time if properly installed.) So, you'll need a second counter hold tool to secure the uppr cam shaft and intermediate cam shaft pulley in place. Also, you'll need two different seal press tools to properly install the seals straight and true and the proper ingress into the journal. SPX Tools sells these as Volvo OEM. Tasca Volvo helps. If in St. Louis, see Howard Erlanger and his Sports Car Centre. Or, try Rich Mullins at the Brentwood Volvo dealership. Unless they are all retired, now.
- Search for delivery or other failure of the in-tank fuel pump. Does your starting and running problem worsen with fuel level at 1/2 tank or lower? Is the problem no problem on a full tank? The in-tank pump can fail or a short section of fuel line between the in-tank pump output to the short pipe section that travels through the fuel sending unit plate, can deteriorate, meaning the main fuel pump under the left side rear seat, can fail. Or, with corrosion, the power contacts on the main fuel pump can corrode. If you have to work with the fuel tank, use brass tools so you create no spark as you would with steel tools on a steel tank and parts. Or contact an honesty and reliable mechanic, at 100$ an hour or more.
So, there's a long answer in vacuous terms. Someone more qualified than I may chime in with a direct solution. Some other references for you for mechanics. Cross check with the BB and take asalt grain when seeking internet opinions and reviews.
- https://www.brickboard.com/SHOPS/
- http://www.mechanicsfiles.com
- http://www.volvomechanics.com/
- http://www.cartalk.com/mechanics-files
- http://www.volvowiringdiagrams.com/?dir=volvo/240%20Wiring%20Diagrams
(Volvo factory service green manuals have much better diagrams than these. These do fine, though.)
Your Volvo 240 owner manual
- http://www.volvocars.com/us/top/yourvolvo/volvo-vehicle-information-library/pages/default.aspx
How are them Volvo wheel hubs? All four of them? They all need some NLGI-2 grease pack love.
And I think that does it.
Questions?
Hope that helps.
Buttermilk MacDuff Mundane Morning.
--
The Volvo 164: The Mightiest of All Volvo Automobiles in Perpetuity
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I love your enthusiasm Kitty, and you do your research! I reside in Columbia, I went to school for a few semesters and found that my work ethic outweighed my patience so I ended up leaving Mizzou to follow more enticing dreams. I work at a local cookie shop, HotBox Cookies, to save up and travel. I have taken 2, 2000+ mile trips in the past year, as well as driven as a delivery driver for over 8 months, all in my beloved white haired square stepchild.
Have you stumbled across my blog? I haven't posted in a while, but free time is hard to come by nowadays
As we are all aware, Missouri's brutal heat and 100% humidity during the summer and negative degree windchill with wet, sloppy, snow and ice in the winter poses a huge threat to the body and undercarriage of any car more than 5 years of age. My 245 is not immune to the cancer either. She's got a few spots in the normal areas (driver side rocker panel, driver side rear wheel well at the seams, and a weird spot at the crest of the passenger door, the later being a tiny chip in the paint).
My dad has past on his knowledge regarding car maintenance and repair ever since I was able to hold a wrench. I remember handing him wrenches while he worked on a TR3 at age 6 while watching the first season of mythbusters. At that point I wasn't paying much attention to the car aspect, but I digress. I have owned quite the eclectic fleet of cars since my 16th, Started with a 77 VW westy bus, then a 67 scout 80, then my blue 73 mgb, 86 vw cabriolet, 91 suzuki swift gt, and now my 91 245. All the while getting balls deep into a 2 wheeled project bike (I'm affiliated with the local moped group). I've had to work on all my cars, my dad taught me the steps to a diagnosis,
1st: Test for spark
2nd: Test for compression
3rd: Test the timing
4th: Fuel delivery
The first thing I did when I bought the car was pull the old haynes manual out of the library, then promptly replaced the brakes. Solid stopping power should always be the first goal in my opinion.
Then I cleaned the fusebox, and replaced any burnt fuses
Then I ran through the electrics, vacuum lines, replaced the air filter, sparkplugs, cap and rotor, battery, cleaned the grounds, and changed the oil. Mind you this was a year ago. I have recently put new plugs, cap and rotor, air filter and oil since then.
The fault has been a recent addition to the character, however. I have changed the fuel pumps, the relay, the fuel filter, and cleaned the contact of the fuse. All things were necessary, because when I turned the key, I didn't hear the pumps run, and when the main pump did run, it was intermittent. Now they run all the time, and without fault.
So my struggle continues, You said something about the CPS? Where can I find that in the bay? Also the TPS? Is that just on the fuel rail?
Hopefully when all this is over, I'll be able to make my plans with the car a reality. As I continue to drive her cross country, I want to camp, but without the hassle of pitching a tent. So I came up with an idea. I want to add button snaps to the wood panels when you lay the back seat down, then make 3" blue cloth foam inserts (to match the interior) to make a fold out bed. If I'm lucky I'll find a glass pane that fits the top of the back end and fabricate a moon roof. It'll be my removable camper wagon. So yeah, I think I'm going to keep it, even if I destroy my wallet in the process.
Sorry for the long winded reply,
A long response calls for a long reply.
I'll post pictures of her when I take her to the wash in the next few days.
Thanks for all the help, I haven't checked the CPS or TPS yet, so thats next on the chopping block
Cheers mates!
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Harrison C. Stretz,
I replied to your response. Apologies, apologies, Appypolly loggy, Oh my Brother.
http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/amk/doc/nadsat.html
Please return to the brickboard and review and reply. Feel free to call me a total and complete bastard, like Vivian, in the BBC 1980s series "The Young Ones" would call Neil or Rick.
A rhetoric PhD. earned at ol' Mizzou may be okay, if in an English department. I'll look for jobs there. Maybe show up with a job and help you and your Volvo 240 Missouri dreamin'.
Better than the nasty, trashy U.S. West.
Though, as civil servants go, ONLY the firefighters DO THEIR JOB.
With each post, we keep Uncle Jerrod Stenberg in new shoes for his Volvo in Minneapolis in the times we struggle in.
cheers,
dud.
--
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/bruce-campbell-ballin/94/874/639
--
The Volvo 164: The Mightiest of All Volvo Automobiles in Perpetuity
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Kitty, don't worry, I've had no internet access for a hot minute (my laptop ate shit). This isn't my first forum, I know how it goes. I'm a noob, with silly noob questions that I should look up before I post. I actually thought your first post was ridiculous and funny. not offensive in any way. I'm also 21 with a maturity level of a 5 year old. ;)
After running through several checks and being hilariously broke, I've decided that as my car is running ok, I'll leave it until I gather a nice safety net again and then I'll start spending more money on her. Yolanda needs some TLC that's for sure, and I'll give it to her. It's just a matter of when.
Thank you all for your quick responses and you are all extremely knowledgeable. I hope to pick all of your brains and learn as much as you guys have.
Cheers mates! I will be back
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Mr. Harrison C. Stretz
Please forgive me. I'm sorry for being a bastard. My embarrassment slowed my reply to you.
To reply to your questions ... as that is why we're here ...
- I used to work at Cookies, Cookies, & More at Westport Plaza in St. Louis County in the early 1980s. A baker and cash register operator.
- Yes, I'd read your blog found through a google search of hcsxc5.
- promptly replaced the brakes ....
Use a Motiv brand power bleeder, or like tool, to flush the brake lines of DOT 4 heavy duty should you brake fluid in the brake fluid reservoir be anything less than a clear tan. (If not already.) I mention the rear wheel bearings as I want, and had the chance, to do a rear wheel bearing inspect, clean, and repack in the last garage, yet can't in the smallish garage I have on a incline that is too narrows for the 240, my corpulent form, and the slightly pulled out axle half shaft. Such a repair can go awry and badly so if the seals are damaged during the task, or are already damaged, or the bearings and races (or seats) or damaged. I'm pissed cause I want to continue to own these cars and I don't own my own garage or shop like Art B. and others do to do the work. (Art B. has the Volvo 240 compound over there near Baltimore!)
- 1st: Test for spark ....
With a computer controlled engine management system, you have two levels of 'tune' if you will. The first level is what your dad taught you. You have a second level of the engine management system sensors and devices (to borrow a modern computing term - a device is the Bosch EZK-116(?) ignition power stage, a sensor is the AMM [or MAF], 02 sensor, and so forth).
- The final Haynes 240 service manual imprint is 1997. The cover should be dark grey with a blue Volvo 240 drawing in cutaway like Terry Davey used to draw these. So, please check the OBD by turning to pages 6-2 and 6-3 to run the OBD check for faults. Socket 2 is fuel LH-Jetronic and socket 6 is EZK ignition. These systems use the emission control for both performance and emissions measurement and management. In my original buttermilk-fueled tirade, I may have suggested you check the FAQ (see the FAQ link, above, for OBD and related topics). The OBD is a guide. These systems will de-leverage themselves to stay within the emission fuel and air consumption trim versus the emissions the 02 sensor measures. These 240s all have heart no matter the engine control or carburettor. The people that built these cars really cared, though build quality suffered in Halifax and Torslanda in the final years .... they have heart and soul. Nothing like that in the boxy Kia Soul, save for Giant Hamsters.
- So my struggle continues, You said something about the ...
The Haynes manual treats these. Like I say, find the final (or later?) 1997 imprint. Or, find the Volvo OEM Factory Service Green Manuals online for free. You may find a PDF or may be displayed by the hosting website using Adobe Flash or Shockwave. (Keep those media runtimes up to date! Adobe is easily hacked. Best to download the full off-line installer from the Adobe site directly. Never download vendor software from a second-hand website malware will accompany them.) Probably the best illustrated manual, and I still can't find mine is the Bentley Volvo 240 Service Manual (bible - as some call it). The hardback is pricey at like 50-70$ with the dark maroon or blue hard cover, but it's the best. The wiring diagrams are a little tight, yet better than Haynes.
- CPS? Where can I find that in the bay? Also the TPS? Is that just on the fuel rail?
The Haynes 1997 imprint includes diagrams of fuel and ignition system devices and sensors. In the 1997 imprint, see Chapters:
4 Fuel injection
5 Engine Electrical Systems
6 Emissions and engine control systems.
Also, the FAQ link above (Ctrl button + mouse click FAQ, or right-click, to open in a separate browser tab or window) lists this information in words and images as aforementioned.
Crank Position Sensor (CPS can also be called an engine speed or RPM [revs. per minute] or engine position sensor} is at the top center of the bell housing on the slanted engine. A heavy black lead comes up and wraps (dresses) into the wire harness on the firewall to connect to the wire harness. Inspect the CPS cable at the engine block rear. See my post on one replacement method. Or, if you are not some slovenly large and corpulent fat form like me, others will use a plywood section over the engine to lay, and merely use a flashlight an a 10 mm spanner wrench.
The TPS is on the throttle body aft side facing the firewall bulkhead.
At the end of the fuel rail is an engine vacuum controlled fuel pressure regulator (FPR). That vacuum line connects between it and the throttle body. Fuel leaking into the vacuum line requires replacement. Though even on new Bosch FPR replacements after a few months you can have a mild gas smell in the vacuum line. A really sharp gas smell at the vacuum line end connected to the throttle body may mean failure soon.
It helps to keep spares. Art B. mentions a manufacture that is better quality than the Bougicord (OEM during the factory build time) version.
Pageda (Dan) and Onkel Okudo II both made made mention to inspect the power stage, secured to the left inner fender at the battery. The heat sink compound will have failed by now. The power stage is an class AB (?) signal amplifier that receives the ignition spark signal from the Bosch EZK ECU, and on the amplifier signal side, connects to the ignition coil input. Nice to have spares, though RWD Volvos in junkyards in MO-state may be quite rare and severely rusty. (Have to make it a day for the 90-120 minute drive from Columbia to StL and the junkyards.) Call ahead, though. Or eBay, now.
(I'd hoped to reside near Seattle or Portland so I can pull Volvo parts for folks in the Midwest and elsewhere. I used to a long time ago for some Sat-Your-Day morning exercise.)
Use DeOxIt to dress these low voltage connectors contacts. A dielectric compound that halts and may dissolve corrosion. Art B. reminded us.
- Hopefully when all this is over, ....
Could you please research what it means to bring a used automobile up to Stage 0 (zero), where all wear items and tune-able concerns are treated.
Though durable, the Volvo 240 at 24 years requires some manner of vigilant care. Harmonic balancer, strut mounts and front and rear suspension bushings, everyone should replace all low pressure fuel line by now on all RWD Volvo and early FWD, and so much more.
My enthusiasm in my first response to you was unwarranted and mal-intended. Merely for failing another technical writer job interview, this time at Columbia Ultimate in Vancouver, WA a few hours before, after applying seven times, to then write as a bombastic bassturd in reply to your problem. I've been trying for a West Coast city job since 1992, when I was at Cal State U., Chico. Volvo and women-friendly dating (I'm straight) and the vagaries of a weird Portland, OR would be fine. I quit the last job at Demand Energy Networks in Liberty Lake, WA as I was harassed on the job by two men who thought believed I was not straight. The company is also an intersecting government agency front (see those convicted in the Frank Church Committee in the 1970s they are still at it full bore - predating U.S. citizens, and I'm one of them). And so it goes. Better I leave then pull them apart or bend them into pretzels. A harassment claim may be pending.
Please follow Mr. Art B.'s guidances. At least Mr. Benstein provides guidance with good and kind intent always as does everyone else here. At least other folks have lives of self-determinism and family and friends.
Again, I'm sorry. Possession of these seven Volvo 240s I have are a deeply emotional thing for me since 1973. In lieu of family and friends and a girlfriend.
An obsession is with return to the 'Lou or enlightened MO-state. WA-state is a failure for me. Now, I can't afford the neat places to live in Western Washington like Snohomish, King, and Pierce Counties, or Portland OR, or anywhere else. A result of the vagaries and a massively corrupt executive branch that should have halted it's evil with the Senator (D-ID) Frank Forrester Church III and his Committee post Watergate scandal convicted the same agencies that do the same thing now. Oh no. And now I have more proof.
So, now I'll find your email, ask you to return to this brickboard.com and engage the community as everyone here is more qualified to answer your questions than I.
Hope that helps.
You technical grammarian and rhetorician.
Alright brickboard. Since we've seen Art, this is me:
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/bruce-campbell-ballin/94/874/639
Now you can find my unlisted number and prank call me. Mind you, my phone, as has been for twenty + years, is tapped.
--
The Volvo 164: The Mightiest of All Volvo Automobiles in Perpetuity
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"I digress. I go off topic, sometimes. Rave about kitty cats and buttermilk."
You ain't kidding. Looks like you had way too much buttermilk last night.
--
1980 245 Canadian B21A with SU carb, M46 trans, 3:31 dif, in Brampton, Ont.
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