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Surging Idle, slow pickup at gas pedal-No Codes from port 2 or 6-Long Detailed Post 200 1992

posted by  1990Volvo240 on  Tue Jul 14 12:08 CST 2015
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last visit: Fri Oct 3 13:18 CST 2014
[RELATED]

Hi,

I have been having an ongoing problem for weeks and I am low on ideas. On top of that, I need to fix it by Sunday as we're leaving for vacation.

1992 245, auto trans, LH 2.4, approx 230,000 miles on odometer

Here is the detailed problem(s):

1. At first start up the idle is slightly twitchy, after a couple minutes it gets more intense. It isn't running at a high idle, it's running at normal idle speed but with a "vroom" every couple seconds.

2. The engine constantly shakes/twitches more than normal-and again more intense as car warms up.

3. The car lacks power (at all times-after cold or hot start, doesn't matter) when you step on the gas. You can tramp completely down on the gas and it is a slow, gradual climbing of speed-especially on hills.

4. There seems to be a light metallic sound somewhere on the engine, this only happens after it has been idling for a while and the car gets up to normal operating temperature. I have tried locating sound with mechanic's stethoscope to no avail.

5. I drove it a couple miles back and forth to work after the idling problem first appeared, only once did I pull out of the drive way quickly (car had no pick up/power when I gassed it) and the car shut off on the road about 30-50 feet from our house. It wouldn't start back up, I checked things under the hood, cleaned battery posts, switched out fuel relay, unplugged AMM but still no start. After a while it finally started but didn't seem to be related to anything I did. This is the only time the shut off and no start occurred, although it has only been test driven twice since. It has sat idling in the driveway many times, sometimes for long periods without a stall out/no start.

I hadn't done any recent work to the car, except for brakes this past winter ***AND***a failed (good/used/OEM) Air Mass Meter (2nd one in about 1 1/2 years). My thermostat has been removed in airbox and hot air side blocked for years now.

All of the work/parts changed/swapped that are listed below were AFTER the above problems occurred. The problem has also NOT CHANGED whatsoever after all the swapping, changing, etc.

The only part changed below that definitely wasn't working was the in tank pump, but no change after installing a new one.

Here is what I have done:

1. In-tank Fuel Pump-NEW-(identical to OEM) verified running before installation and after installation.

2. In-tank Fuel Sender-NEW-aftermarket-had to replace as pipes rusted off/broke on old sender when I was removing hoses to check filter sock and the short rubber hose from sender to pump.

3. In-tank Fuel Filter/Sock-NEW-Bosch-old one tore when I tried to switch it to new in-tank pump.

4. Main Fuel Pump-NEW-Bosch-thought that maybe main fuel pump had been damaged and might be putting out inadequate pressure due to failed in tank pump. Not so.

5. Fuel Filter-NEW-Bosch-(filter beside main pump)-might as well change it while I'm there as it was of unknown age.

6. Fuel Pressure Regulator-NEW-Bosch-old one passed both sniff test and I pulled the hose at it's rear and it had a steady stream of fuel so it seemed okay. After tearing my hair out for a while, I had one on had so I thought "what the hell."

7. Main Fuel Relay-USED, re-soldered OEM relays-swapped around two different ones when the car wouldn't start as mentioned above.

8. Air Mass Meter-USED OEM-swapped from my running perfect 90 244, no change of course. ***one thing I noticed is the outside aluminum on the AMM getting quite hot...normal? I checked both sides of AMM connector and it's fine too. Unplugged AMM and car ran worse.

9. Spark Plug Wires, Coil Wire, Spark Plugs, Distrib. Cap & Rotor-NEW-Bougicord, Champion Copper and Bosch-most of these parts needed freshened up, wires were of unknown age.

10. Exhaust Manifold and Manifold to Header Pipe Gaskets-NEW-Elring-the manifold side gaskets were old and crumbling.

11. Flame Trap Kit-NEW OEM-replaced due to the not so old aftermarket kit split, cracked and crumbling

12. Repositioned exhaust donut as there seemed to be a leak (visible exhaust gas) at Cat. Converter and Header Pipe joint. I removed bracket and looked inside converter (at header pipe inlet) and honeycomb was fully intact. Both might be original Volvo.

13. Rear Muffler & Tailpipe-NEW Starla-old muffler rusted at inlet

14. Visibly checked Header Pipe including the inner Y-no holes

15. Swapped Ignition Amplifier-from my 90 244-no change

16. Cleaned Throttle Body, verified click of TPS, unplugged it and it ran worse

17. Cleaned IAC and applied 12v to verify valve operation

18. Checked engine ground points

19. Double checked all sensor connectors

20. Reamed intake ports after removing vac hoses

21. Sprayed cleaner around manifold hoses and gasket to check for air leaks

22. Removed and inspected hard plastic AMM elbow and accordian hose

23. Checked O2 sensor with meter, flutates from .9v and down as per 700/900 FAQ-sensor is maybe 12,000 miles old at the most

24. CPS I replaced with NEW Bougicord maybe 30,000 miles ago

25. Checked copper contact fuses and spun them

I think that should be everything.

Feel free to shoot me some ideas as I running low on them. Might go outside later to check/double check things.


Any help is greatly appreciated, thanks for reading-

Travis









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    Surging Idle, slow pickup at gas pedal-No Codes from port 2 or 6-Long Detailed Post 200 1992

    posted by  machine man on  Tue Jul 14 23:27 CST 2015
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    last visit: Wed Oct 22 15:40 CST 2014
    [RELATED]

    You wrote in some good details. Better than most posters!

    The "vroom" tells me there is a miss happening and the ECU is self tuning like its suppose to.

    I am not a great fan of Champoin spark plugs. I have had bad ones right out of the box!
    Ignition components are new so I will stop there.

    I think a lean mixture could cause issues like this. I want to blame the computer's Engine Coolant Sensor first. I forget which way the voltage goes on the O2 sensor but staying high is not good and it is telling something is burning strangely.
    But if you have a slow sample time voltmeter, you might not be getting the whole story.

    Loss of power and pinging is a symptom, if you are very lean. If the plugs have been in there long enough they might have a white or no deposits. One different plug in the bunch should not be there.
    I am thinking they are all too lean or burning the same with a miss rotating or even doubling up briefly.
    I assume oil consumption is not a problem to cause excessive carbon for a ping or rattle.

    I would still check the timing belt first at the cam notch and distributor rotor to be exactly under number one for good measure. How long has the belt been on it and when was the last time it was adjusted through the front cover?

    Loss of power and rattle is a higher speed and loads issue. The Driving symptom could point to the belt by itself.
    Does it do an instant hit and crank up, hot or cold?

    Good luck on that vacation
    Phil








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      Surging Idle, slow pickup at gas pedal-No Codes from port 2 or 6-Long Detailed Post 200 1992

      posted by  1990Volvo240 on  Wed Jul 15 12:15 CST 2015
      Author: [PROFILE] [EVERY POST] [THREADS] [BEST POSTS] RSS Feed     [IGNORE ALL POSTS]
      last visit: Fri Oct 3 13:18 CST 2014
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      Hi Phil,

      I put on a Contitech timing belt and INA tensioner at the most maybe 20-30k miles ago. After that I only re-tensioned once, after the first 600 miles. Do timing get re-tensioned more than that one time after the replacement?

      When the problems first started the first thing I did was replace all the ignition components (plugs, wires, cap & rotor). The previous plugs had enlarged gaps and were white-ish in color.

      I will be checking the timing today.

      I do have a Bosch ECT on the shelf if that could be the culprit.

      The car starts up as it should every time without any problems.

      Thanks,

      Travis








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    Surging Idle, slow pickup at gas pedal-No Codes from port 2 or 6-Long Detailed Post 200 1992

    posted by  pageda on  Tue Jul 14 13:47 CST 2015
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    last visit: Fri Oct 24 13:18 CST 2014
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    3. The car lacks power (at all times-after cold or hot start, doesn't matter) when you step on the gas. You can tramp completely down on the gas and it is a slow, gradual climbing of speed-especially on hills.

    This sounds like it could be "limp home mode" due to a failed AMM or that the timing belt has slipped a tooth or two and the belt is not correctly timed. Or even a plugged cat converter.

    Dan







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      SOLVED! Surging Idle, slow pickup at gas pedal-No Codes from port 2 or 6-Long Detailed Post 200 1992

      posted by  1990Volvo240 on  Wed Jul 15 16:11 CST 2015
      Author: [PROFILE] [EVERY POST] [THREADS] [BEST POSTS] RSS Feed     [IGNORE ALL POSTS]
      last visit: Fri Oct 3 13:18 CST 2014
      [RELATED]

      Checking the timing belt as a culprit-

      I lined the crankshaft pulley notch up with 0, pulled the distributor cap to verify the rotor was at the #1 position which it was, but when I unscrewed the cover and pulled it back gently to check the camshaft pulley mark it WAS NOT lined up with the inside top of the cover. Just then I also noticed the belt had some slack in it and that it wasn't under tension.

      I have a belt on the way and a tensioner on the shelf.

      After installation I'll report back.

      Thanks again everyone,

      Travis








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      Catalytic Converter questions 200 1992

      posted by  1990Volvo240 on  Tue Jul 14 15:18 CST 2015
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      last visit: Fri Oct 3 13:18 CST 2014
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      Hi Dan,

      Even though there weren't codes I pulled the fuse at fuse box before I swapped the good AMM in. There was no change in how it ran. With an unplugged AMM it ran horrible.

      The timing belt is one thing I haven't checked which I will.

      Now a couple questions with the cat converter-

      How thick is that honeycomb structure inside? Because I had the end where it attaches to the header pipe open, shined a light in at the honeycomb was fully intact. Could it look that way at the header end and be broken up at the other (resonator) end? The resonator end will be a fight to get apart without mangling it.

      Thank you,

      Travis








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    Surging Idle, slow pickup at gas pedal-No Codes from port 2 or 6-Long Detailed Post 200 1992

    posted by  Smitty on  Tue Jul 14 12:57 CST 2015
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    last visit: Sat Aug 9 22:44 CST 2014
    [RELATED]

    That's a head-scratcher, for sure, but I'll suggest a couple of things. The symptoms suggest a weak mixture, IMO.

    Remove the inlet snorkel between the AMM and the throttle body. Carefully inspect it for cracks and holes, especially on the underside - a dark room and a flashlight are helpful for this. A loose connection at one end or the other can be a huge power-killer (ask me how I know...), and the snorkel itself is prone to cracking with age. As the engine rocks under power, any cracks can open and close.

    The crank position sensor is a royal pain to get to, but it's also occasionally the source of a no-start. Same for the power stage, except that's a lot easier to get to. I can't advise how to trouble-shoot either of those except to swap in known good replacements.

    The last suggestion I have is that the catalytic converter core can break loose and plug the exhaust. When this happens your gas pedal has no effect - the car will idle, but not make power. Road vibration or even shaking the cat cross-wise can cause the core to shift enough to clear the gas path again. If you shake the cat and hear a rattle, that makes it a prime suspect.

    Good luck, and post back with any updates.








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      Surging Idle, slow pickup at gas pedal-No Codes from port 2 or 6-Long Detailed Post 200 1992

      posted by  1990Volvo240 on  Tue Jul 14 15:05 CST 2015
      Author: [PROFILE] [EVERY POST] [THREADS] [BEST POSTS] RSS Feed     [IGNORE ALL POSTS]
      last visit: Fri Oct 3 13:18 CST 2014
      [RELATED]

      Hi Smitty,

      Have removed the Intake Hose twice and checked for cracks. Sprayed it down and shook it around when looking for air leaks with the car idling.

      I swapped the Ignition Amplifier but that was no change too.

      I shook the cat converter and hit it with a mallet but didn't hear anything.

      Thanks,

      Travis







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