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So......
I'm in the middle of getting a replacement xmsn pan gasket because of a defective one I ordered. In the mean time I also decided to replace all of my accessory belts a couple days ago. ( timing belt was done about 4k ago before I owned the car) she ran fine before this undertaking. Currently she is really low on tranny fluid due to the leak from the faulty gasket, but I went to start it up so icould drive up on the ramps. (I don't have a jack or stands) and she no starts.
When I turn the key on, I can hear the pump in the engine bay humming softly, and when I crank, it cranks right up and catches off the starter but then instantly dies. I can't get it to go any more than that. I initially thought it was out of gas, added more and tried again with same result. Fuel level is about 1/4 full. The tank pump activates during start sequence and stops. I removed the fuel pump relay cover to observe the relay switching, which it does. I also unplugged it and jumped the red to red-yellow wires to be sure, and I can definitely hear both pumps running, but no change in symptom. All fuses in the fuse panel are brand new as of one month ago. In the process I also cleaned the entire terminal block.
Next, I checked for spark, and it's there all the way to the spark plug ends, also the plug ends are wet. I cleaned and reseated all connectors I could find related to ignition and fuel. Then I disconnected the out flow line on the fuel filter mounted to the firewall. I got a small bubble of fuel leakage, then upturned the filter to reveal clear beautiful gasoline pouring out. I wasn't able to budge the in flow line. I thought I could disconnect that one, activate the pump, and observe the fuel before it got to the filter, possibly revealing poor flow or dirty rusty fuel.
The rotor and cap, coil, and plug wires are all brand new installed by a shop 2 months ago. Previous to these new parts, there was a (ballast resistor? I was told) sitting next to the coil. It's still there but it's not hooked up anymore, the tech telling me that the new coil didn't need it. Being brand new to this game then I just said ok. But I still wonder about that. It only has one wire and a spade connector coming off it. But like i said everything ran fine before I did this belt change, which had me taking off the power steering pump and alternator as I replaced all the mount bushings. I did find a small vacuum line that was disconnected behind and below the distributor (surely my fault) but reconnecting that didn't help either.
The engine wire harness is definitely something on my list of things to replace. It's pretty shoddy. The two grey plugs on the firewall have several bare wires showing and the rest looks like if I touch it, it will crumble to pieces. Same goes for the alternator area. Those wires are even worse...the fuel pressure sensor ( I believe, above alternator ?) wiring is completely bare with a few strands broken, and the alternator's small spade connector wire looks the same. The harness run below the crank is extremely brittle and stiff. None of the wires that I can see appear to be touching each other, and I have jiggled them and moved them numerous times hoping for a change, but nothing. I know there could be massive problems under the harness wraps though.
I apologize for the long post, I just wanted to be as clear as possible on what I've done so far and the current state of the car. It's not a beater by any means, and the engine bay is pretty clean, but it has some gremlins lurking deep.
She has 108k miles and ran great prior to this no start and there were no impending signs. I'm pretty sure it's something I did, since my hands were all in there deep. I must have jostled something or knocked something around and shorted it, the dying engine harness exacerbating any problem.
I also have been unable to find any green books on fuel system. I did read through the CIS book but it didn't really seem to help me much.
Thank you so much in advance for any and all input!
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Hello everyone,
First I want to thank all the folks who chimed in to help out with a frustrating problem I had. Being new to the Volvo game I had a steep learning curve on the quirks and idiosyncrasies of my 240. I do love the car though and am looking forward to many years of enjoyment both driving and working on her.
So, to update the issue I was having for the information of all involved and the next new guy to come along:
I ended up leaving the car sitting for awhile during my time away working in another state. When I returned, I commenced picking up where I left off. I got the transmission pan back on and refilled, belts reinstalled, then I went to work disconnecting every plug I found in the engine compartment. One by one I went through and cleaned them with a wire brush and applied aviation grade electrical preservant to the connection. I tried to start the car after each plug was treated in the hopes of isolating the problem. Most were dingy, but nothing too serious....that is until I came upon the two pin plug on the passenger firewall that breaks out of the main engine harness and leads to the CCU behind the headlight assembly. When I pulled that plug apart, all sorts of white powder billowed from within, and I could hardly see any metal exposed anywhere. After a thorough scrubbing and reassembly, wouldn't you know it fired right up. I was both elated and somewhat angry at myself that such a minute detail had me so perplexed. I guess I somehow looked over that connector the first time around. I knew it must have been something small and ridiculous, I just couldn't for the life of me find out where it was coming from.
I don't really understand why the poster named "CB" had to be so hostile and condescending in his post. But anyhow I thank everyone else for their help and advice. My 240 is back on the road, and to celebrate, I just took it on a 1,200 mile road trip and she performed flawlessly. As a side note, those seats are nothing short of marvelous. Even after a 13 hour trip straight through stopping only for gas, my back and legs felt great. Only car I've ever owned that I can say that about.
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Nice to hear you got it running that great. Flawlessly is a pretty high rating.
That area you fixed must have been really blown out!
You must have bumped the crust while working on the belts!
I see you were gone away from the posting since May and being out of state explains a lot.
I'm glad you were not thrown off your quest to get the car running by any poster trying to help in their own way.
I have never met anyone that can stand in two different pairs of shoes at the same time!
Just make an allowances for those anxieties in people wanting to help and their expectations.
I even suggested the use of manuals more but it turns out, to be just grunk work in the harness.
Phil
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I figured from the start it had to be something I bumped or jiggled just right. Once I saw that connector I knew that was it. Well I hoped it would be anyway. I now have my multimeter and a Bentley so hopefully I will be more prepared next time. Next up: rebuilding the engine wire harness from scratch. Thanks again for your help!
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http://www.k-jet.org/
http://cleanflametrap.com/
At 33 year old, the 108 miles apparently on the ODO mean less. It means the car has set at times. I hope under dry cover on concrete or gravel. If outdoors on gravel, dirt, or grass, corrosion can form everywhere - body metal rust, corrosion at connectors and ground all along the wire harness.
It sound as if you may need to replace or rebuild the wire harness.
http://www.volvowiringdiagrams.com/?dir=volvo/240%20Wiring%20Diagrams
Others with deeper and more recent K-jet experience will reply.
If your fuel filter runs out the input side with detritus, best to replace. New washers, too. You can get copper again yet there are other alloys that may work better.
when I crank, it cranks right up and catches off the starter but then instantly dies.
You may have fuel pressure (control or injector) issues. It sounds as if the engine starts off the cold start injector, yet does as the control pressure is too high, you have vacuum leaks, or the 3 mm Allen hex wrench CO (carbon monoxide, right is rich, left is lean) adjustment is too lean.
Or fuel is not getting to the injectors as control pressure is to high or you have some sort of blockage down stream of the fuel filter. I'll guess in the fuel distributor. That's a guess ....
With the Bosck K-Jetronic fuel injection / ignition control system, you can NOT have ANY vacuum leaks. Engine vacuum lifts a plate in the air / fuel control unit. The plate is around and sits in a venturi that meters air mass as it lifts the air / fuel control plate thingy, lifting a piston in an air fuel control unit, like a fuel rack in a diesel fuel system, (diesel is stinky!). You could also have a failure of the electro mechanical control pressure regulator, the fuel accumulator downstream of the fuel pump, and, well, I dunno.
Do you have a repair manual? The Bentley Volvo 240 service manual guide bible is best for the unpracticed or untrained mechanic. The Haynes 240 service manual as the final 1997 imprint is okay. (Just be wary of Haynes fluid recommendations.) Find Volvo factory service green manuals on the i-net.
Also, many K-jet folks here, like our brickboard member Art Benstein. He even has an oscilloscope as he diagnoses and verifies his K-jet ignition control module, I think.
The wiring harness condition is too great a variable for me to suggest more specific notions. Some with current and direct K-jet experience can help you. However, for a quality mehcmnical restore, may be time to get on that wire harness, stem to stern. If you got a few $$, ebay and elsewhere may have 1982 NOS wire harness for your market 1982 Volvo 240.
Check the:
- brickboard.com classfied, or post a want ad:
https://www.brickboard.com/CLASSADS/
- iPd USA (Volvo 240 parts- requires account)
http://www.ipdusa.com/classifieds.asp
Turbobricks.com
Matthews Volvo Site
Volvo Club of America websites.
You should have other Volvo enthusiast clubs in NY-state and elsewhere in the Atlantic Northeast and nearby in Canada. You may be able to find what you need if you search for it.
Questions?
Hope that helps.
Sat-Your-Day Blueberry.
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As noted by others, air/vacuum leaks can cause havoc both in the performance of the K-Jet system as well as in troubleshooting one, sending you down many blind alleys and not resolving the problem. First thing is to check ALL sources of possible air leakage. This means checking and better yet, replacing ALL vacuum hoses, including the one between the brake power booster and the intake manifold. Another potential source of air leakage and the condition you describe is the large rubber boot that goes between the air/fuel control unit and the intake manifold. Look very carefully at the, as cracks can appear, particularly in the back side of this boot, or near the clamps that hold it in place, where they are difficult to see. Any leakage here will prevent the sensor plate from lifting and therefore providing fuel for the engine to run. A third source of air leakage is the o-ring seals around the injectors themselves, and the plastic mounts in which they sit. Again, good to change these. Simple and inexpensive, but can have a major effect. A combination of 2 or several of these minor air leaks can really wreak havoc.
I had a situation similar to yours, where the car would when cold, start briefly on turn over, then die. Or when warm, it would crank a long time, then eventually start. If jumped the fuel pumps to let them run for a few seconds and build up fuel pressure, then it would generally start and keep running at idle, but not always. Once started and driving, it seemed to run fine. After many checks of realism, fuses, pump function, fuel pressures, I checked all seals and hoses. It was surprising how many had gotten hard or cracked, and had small air leaks around them. The rubber bellows/boot had small crack near its base. After replacing injector seals and ALL vacuum hoses all is fine. Runs like a new car.
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I have seen the wire harnesses on Dave Barton's site for a little over $300 shipped for the correct one I need. Lotta dough, so I'm hoping someone has any ideas or suggestions first. But I do know just by looking at the harness that it's got one foot in the grave. It's just frustrating because it was all working fine until I got my hands in there for the belts/bushings change. And both spark and fuel are getting to the plugs. Makes me wonder if there is something going on with wiring to the ICU, perhaps I jostled and shorted something that was half rotted on the bottom harness run. ..
I have no manuals, so I've been trying to glean all my info from the green books I've found online.
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I have been reading about your belt change out with new bushings.
It's nice to know that your car is in good enough shape for you keep it on the road.
The CIS system is very reliable if taken care by keeping clean fresh fuel in the tank.
I also read that you got an education on split pulleys on the crankshaft for the A/C belts.
My first encounter with that darn thing was on my '78 GT.
It had its A/C installed after delivery by a dealers subcontractor.
At least that was their excuse!
They did not install a split pulley. That's right, a gorilla must have rolled that belt to stretch it on!
Rolling on a belt probably caused the early failure of the belt.
I got the split pulley out of the dealer because the belt went bad shortly after I had the car serviced at 30K.
I was hot about that! I had to drive thirty miles to get it in another vehicle because that as you know disables the power steering.
That was the last time any of my Volvo's have seen a dealer shop.
That is, except my '86 under a 36k "transferred" bumper to bumper warranty. The rear muffler fell off the car!
I was again disappointed with their charges for looking into an engine miss and their reluctance to fix an intermittent failure for the tailgate lock to perform!
The Beginning of the hinge wiring issues, I now know!
Going back to the belts and bushings has me wondering about the timing belt.
You have fuel, wet plugs and spark!
During the belt change out you may have rocked the timing belt backwards. Maybe you have jumped the sprockets a tooth or two.
I have assumed things in the past. I now think about that word differently. ASS out of U and ME!
Assuming the belt was tensioned properly from a PO might be a mistake.
During cranking the engine is turning very slow and the timing maybe close enough to to fire but as it speeds up it gets too far off.
It is easy enough to check all the notched marks and rotor positions.
I would loosen and tighten the tensioner. Make a final turn to the right for alignment with compression on the number one cylinder.
I did not read that it has run down the road since all the work was done. Has it?
I am not familiar with the ICU on a '82 but on my '78 it is a black box around the alternator area.
Is yours the same?
I am not aware of a fuel pressure switch on a CIS K jet. Any switch above the alternator must be the oil pressure switch out of the engine block.
If this car is a turbo, I know nothing about those but there is no need to read fuel over there, I would think?
Now after I have bored you with my stories, I want to say, that by doing your own work you will be better than any repair shop and closer!
You will have confidence that this car is running well and if it sneezes, the fix is cheap as aspirins, as its only parts!
Phil
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Forgive me, for I am learning as I go here....
I am not understanding what you mean by " you may have rocked the timing belt backwards or skipped a tooth"
I never opened the timing belt cover or removed the belt. The only belts I replaced are the alternator, A/C, and power steering. I did loosen the main crank bolts just enough to allow the split pulley to disengage the old A/C belt, but I don't see how that would affect the timing belt at all.
As I mentioned, prior to this job the car ran perfect and gave me no indications of impending doom. The no start problem was the first attempt at starting the car since I undertook this little project a week ago.
My ICU is mounted to my washer fluid reservoir on the right fender. This car is non turbo B21F MPG with Chrysler ignition. ( I know ive heard the horror stories)
Yes you are correct, The sensor above the alternator is the oil pressure sensor, sorry I misspoke.
I guess my next step is to go find some literature on how to check the timing belt position and tension. I've checked everything else I can think of apart from getting into the ICU. I read about connector sleeves, destroying connectors, etc. regarding the ICU, seems like good times. Could a stuck air control valve be a possible suspect?
Unfortunately this car is my only set of wheels, and I feel like it will be a dependable car once I get the old crusty demons out of it, but I think it may take some time as I don't have wads of cash to throw at it right now, i.e. Engine harness.....
I think I may end up going the route of building my own engine harness...it will save me money and I will learn something in the process. I have the right tools for it, I'm just not up to speed on good brands of automotive electrical hardware such as wiring and connectors. 3M? Anybody have suggestions for that? I want it to be a good quality job.
Off to look at the timing belt....
Thanks to all!
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I looked everything over for the umpteenth time and I actually found a torn vacuum hose leading right into the ICU, but it was on the bottom side of the nipple so I didn't see it before. I cut the end off and slipped the now tight hose back on securely, and tried to crank again. Same result first time, however on the second try I decided to give it a little throttle as I cranked and she actually fired and ran up to the high idle my foot had dictated, only to come back down and die about 3 seconds later. From then on I never got it to do that again, just back to previous symptoms.
Vacuum leak? Air/fuel mixture not jiving?
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Ok you have the later ignition system than my '78. Your '82 is more hybrid than I thought.
They kept that system onward to the LH 1.0 fuel injection system.
If question whether you can loosen a crankshaft bolt and have nothing move you might want to read and use this thread, since you do not have a manual!
https://www.brickboard.com/FAQ/700-900/B230FTimingBeltAlignment.htm
Not having a manual is like going to church without a bible. You won't know what their talking about.
With out those books you cannot get your filled with some workable knowledge or brain washed!
A working car does more for me so I have lots of manuals or the Internet nowadays!
Keep digging around!
Phil
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The engine shown is a B230, which is not what I have, is the procedure the same for B21?Also it explains how to do the timing belt alignment, but I am still at a loss as to how me slightly loosening the crankshaft pulley bolts would somehow get the crankshaft to move independently of the camshaft, thereby throwing the timing off. If the timing belt remains connected, how can this happen? Are you telling me that every time someone replaces any accessory belts, they must also perform a timing belt adjustment? I know that I'm new to volvos and euro cars in general, I've just never heard of such a thing, and I have replaced many belts over the years. Please clarify, and thank you.
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koamileli wrote--"but I am still at a loss as to how me slightly loosening the crankshaft pulley bolts would somehow get the crankshaft to move independently of the camshaft, thereby throwing the timing off."
The Volvo tensioner is set with all slack on it's side of the motor and then locked in place. After stretching with use--if it hasn't been re-tensioned--it could be made to slip a tooth if the motor is cranked backwards. Worth looking into.
You only need to remove the top TB cover to see the cam mark. The crankshaft pulley has a slot and aligns with the scale on the lower cover. Take the distributor cap off and check that the rotor is pointing to #1 cylinder post. -- Dave
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The timing belt only has 3k miles on it....and I was never able to move the crankshaft pulley by hand.
I will take the whole thing apart again tomorrow and check just to be sure. The cover is one piece and the only way to get it off is by taking all the belts off.
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posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Sun May 31 19:53 CST 2015 [ RELATED]
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You are indeed a Tiresome Poster. Chasing the helpfull people here around and around and around.
From back when you weren't sure what engine you had, you were directed to on-line sources for Green Books and Trouble Shooting Manuals. You "claim" to have "read them, yet you come back again and again asking questions that ARE ALL Coverd in those publications...with Step by Step Trouble-Shootinf Procedures WRITTEN by VOLVO for its DEALER TECHNICIANS.
Yet you continue to ASK FOR help and then get chased around looking for reasons/solutions as if You have Zero knowledge. When the problem/solution is staring you in the face.
As for your current Problem....the answer lies is THE WIRING HARNESS. AS YOU WROTE.
""""But like i said everything ran fine before I did this belt change, which had me taking off the power steering pump and alternator as I replaced all the mount bushings"""
****************************I must have jostled something or knocked something around and shorted it, the dying engine harness exacerbating any problem.********
"The engine wire harness is definitely something on my list of things to replace. It's pretty shoddy. The two grey plugs on the firewall have several bare wires showing and the rest looks like if I touch it, it will crumble to pieces. Same goes for the alternator area. Those wires are even worse...the fuel pressure sensor ( I believe, above alternator ?) wiring is completely bare with a few strands broken, and the alternator's small spade connector wire looks the same. The harness run below the crank is extremely brittle and stiff. None of the wires that I can see appear to be touching each other, and I have jiggled them and moved them numerous times hoping for a change, but nothing. I know there could be massive problems under the harness wraps though.""""
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Hi Koamileli,
CB makes some good points here.
Everyone can post responses to the problem /issues you post. We'll help you (see me in bombast reply and post mode) how we can.
Yet as much as we'd want to, we can't reach out from the web browser on your computer while you have it parked on brickboard.com to fix your 1982 Volvo 240.
What you have on your hands, as it sounds, is a 1982 Volvo 240 (Turbo?) that needs some serious systemic health. A patch here or there ain't gonna do it as you now know.
Stage 0 on a restored car means it is as like new, off the factory floor, as possble for a 33 year old 1982 Volvo 240. Or, as close as can be.
Like anything, you will want to assess your costs versus reward (or risk versus benefit). You know you MUST replace wire harness (harnesses - you can rebuild these yourself using modern material connectors and insulation. You believe the timing belt may be off a tooth ...
So, may I please suggest you research what it takes for a mechanical restoration of your 1982 Volvo 240 to get to some point of Stage 0.
However, the lest important thing a car can do is GO.
The MOST IMPORTANT thing a car can do is stop, always, securely, each and every time.
How is the brake fluid in the brake fluid reservoir? How are the six flexible brake lines? Any leakage at the brake pressure switch? Have you looked at the brakes for wear, warp, and such?
What about the wheel bearings, both front and rear. Front wheel bearings are easy. The rears are not so bad. We now know we should re-pack these rear-wheel drive Volvo rear wheel bearings probably every 50k miles. I'm about 100k overdue on my 1991 240.
What about the low pressure fuel lines that are now 33 years old on your 1982 Volvo 240 that are rotting due to ethanol fuel blends and age.
Have you checked the driveshaft U-joints for wear? The drive shaft center support assembly? Check that?
What about the Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) System? Check that?
Do you have a manual transmission or automatic? Replace fluids (brake fluid, transmission fluid, engine coolant [use pre-mix or distilled water with green / blue coolant, NEVER ORANGE COOLANT in redblock Volvo]? Adjust the clutch cable on the manual transmission?
So, you have a decision. While you may need to do a host of work to get the thing to stop, you need to know whether you can also get it to go.
So, do your research, diagnose the fault conditions and causes (you already mention many causes), and repair it. It is a time-consuming love labor if you want a reliable Volvo 240 that is worthy of cared-for Volvo 240 ownership.
You have posts on care rescue strategies all over the RWD brickboard. Take a look at the 700-900-90 FAQ as general automobile care is rather universal. Though 240 and 700-900 are similar.
cheers,
dud.
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