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Thanks for reading this. My 240 Wagon has started a bit strangely since I bought it a year or so ago. Symptom was advanced spark on cranking - seemed as if as piston was reaching top on compression stroke it fired too soon, and stopped the starter, sometimes momentarily, sometimes it would go over. Eventually it would start. I tried retarding the distributor, and this worked a bit better for a little while. In all cases, once it started, the EI control took over and there were no timing symptoms during normal running.
But a few days ago, it stopped starting. I pulled a plug, put it on the head, and spun engine with ignition on. No spark at all. Checked the code reader behind the LS inner fender, got only three blips indicating no problems. (Guess they didn't have a code for "no spark.")
Both coil primary terminals show voltage with test lamp. When disconnected and intermittent battery voltage is supplied, I get a spark from the coil HT line (to distributor.)
It's times like this I seriously consider such gimmicks as substituting the distributor for an earlier points model and just reverting to coil ignition. I'm certainly tempted here....
Any suggestions on where to go from here much appreciated..
ps
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"It's times like this I seriously consider such gimmicks as substituting the distributor for an earlier points model and just reverting to coil ignition. I'm certainly tempted here.."
Can/has it been done?
The reason I ask is because according to page 21 of
http://www.volvowiringdiagrams.com/volvo/240%20Wiring%20Diagrams/Volvo%20240%201992.pdf
there may not be any feedback to the EZK ignition. So perhaps points could be dropped in.
--
1980 245 Canadian B21A with SU carb, M46 trans, 3:31 dif, in Brampton, Ont.
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I've solved this more than once.
Give this thread a read:
https://www.brickboard.com/RWD/volvo/1408779/220/240/260/280/cranking_issue_timing_starter.html
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
A man is flying in a hot air balloon and realizes he is lost. He reduces height and spots a man down below. He lowers the balloon further and shouts: "Excuse me, can you help me? I promised my friend I would meet him half an hour ago, but I don't know where I am."
The man below says: "Yes. You are in a hot air balloon, hovering approximately 30 feet above this field."
"You must be an engineer," says the balloonist.
"I am," replies the man. "How did you know?"
"Well," says the balloonist, "everything you have told me is technically correct, but I have no idea what to make of your information.
"The man below says, "You must be a planner."
"I am," replies the balloonist, "but how did you know?"
"Well," says the man, "you don't know where you are, or where you are going, and you have made a promise which you have no idea how to keep. The fact is you are in the exact same position you were in before we met, but now it is somehow my fault."
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Hello there,
First of all your '92 has absolutely nothing in that distributor.
Turning it will move the spark plugs out of range or the rotor button sweep!
You had better put it back in the center of the slot.
Since you did that you may have damaged the rotor button from excess arcing.
It may have been going out since you had the car unless you tuned it up!
Still I would check its condition first thing and reset the distributor.
You said you had spark from the coil wire so it means the Crank Position Sensor or CPS is working.
We will hope correctly. Check the condition of its wiring from the connector at the back of the engine all the way down behind the head!
Get back to us on your next post with any other details on how it starts or not!
Phil
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Thanks much for the timely reply! Shat you say about the dist explains to me why I couldn't find any connecting wires on the primary side. (All my monkey-wrenching has been Old School)
I didn't move the dist much; the clamp screw was about center of the arc, I moved it all the way to retard; I'll put it back to center tomorrow morning.
The spark I observed at coil wire won't have anything to do with CPS, since, as I said earlier, the spark was with the coil primary terminals disconnected, and me providing intermittent power to the coil, just to test it. ie, jumper supplying power from bat (+), striking another grounded jumper to (-) terminal. I also checked for spark at coil output to ground with engine cranking and coil primary terminals connected. Sans joie. Which indicates to me that it must be some element of my EI system Still, I'll try with dist repositioned close to where I remember it. I'll check the dist cap buttons as well, but the engine has only been run maybe an hour since I moved it the first time, so I wouldn't expect too much burning in there.
Again, tnx,
ps
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Hi,
You are right I did not catch the place where you said you were firing the coil manually.
I guess I was stuck on trying to tell you about the distributor and just advise you of the CPS system.
Maybe I was just "fixated" on doing a post! (:-)
The link and foot note that Art puts in here sure tells an "engineers" story. He is always technically correct!
Guess you better be a "planner" and plan to change the CPS,
(:-)
Phil
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Guess you better be a "planner" and plan to change the CPS,
(:-)
Phil
Thanks for the reply, Phil! I've been delaying a reply while I did casual but repeated searches under the hood for clues. I've been poring over both the manuals I have - Haynes and Chilton both, and have the following postulations:
1) It is less likely that the ECU computer is fried. (yay!)
2) The ECU computer fires the coil through its output circuit when it receives
trigger signals from the CPS.
3) On the way from the CPS to the ECU, the signal is amplified by an amplifier,
called also a "stage" of some sort - output stage, as I recall.
I should point out that this car is in very nice condition. Very clean inside and out, no signs of wiring having been dicked with, corroded, dirty, or any such. It's like a new car, under there!
I have yet to see any way to test the CPS or the output stage. What is more,
I've had a mechanic friend help me look in there with a strong light, and neither of us can find anything that would suggest either a CPS or an output amp. And I've done a lot of monkey-wrenching myself over the years. I'm a recovering auto shop teacher in fact. I've rebuilt a few Volvos, but they were all 544s and 122s, so no help there.
I'm pretty sure that my system is the one called EZK115 in the manual. The Chilton manual suggests some resistance tests between the "CPS connector" and the coil, and I think also between the amp/power stage terminal and coil, but since I can't find either, I'm lost here. I gather that I should look for a sending unit bolted onto the bell housing at a spot where it could read from the outer periphery of the flywheel, but no joy here. There's a photo in the Chilton manual showing a block-shaped white connector to the CPS. Looks to be at the rear of the engine, but it's a B/W photo, fuzzy, on newsprint, and doesn't show anything else recognizable, so I can't be sure.
I live in a small town, about 150 miles away from the closest one with more than two brick-era volvos in it, so I haven't even bothered looking for a shop in town that might be able to fix it. Any help with finding and testing the ECU input device(s) would be much appreciated.
Fortunately, the brick is my winter car, and it's spring around here, so my first response to the failure to start was to pull the Cressida out of the shop and put the plates on it. Consequently, time is not a pressing factor. But I really want to get the brick running some time fairly soon.
tnx,
ps
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Hi there Pete
Looks like you are old school like me and yes are having to do a share of reading as well.
The power stage "thingy" is behind the battery on the inner fender well. Looks like black match box on steroids.
It is a current handling electronic relay that powers the ignition coil.
Actually it can be said it turns off the power or breaks the ground that make the secondary windings dump spark towards the spark plugs. Just like the old points but the cam is the CPS via the ICU!
The ECU controls the variances from inputs of the Air Mass Meter (AMM) and oxygen sensor (O2).
A predescribed program, built by lab techies, holds the perimeters for performance and emissions.
The power stage relay, as it is called, does so on the commands from the ICU. The ICU reads the signal from the CPS.
When the key is first turned the ECU powers up and starts a program to run the fuel pumps and then shuts down. This pressurized the fuel rail for quicker starts and better atomization under all conditions.
After this, when the engine is turn over, the CPS signal starts ups the ECU, ICU, and the pumps again!
The weak links are usually the CPS, the Power Stage Relay or the connectors to those.
Being the CPS wiring is frail, over the years of being behind the engine head, it become a suspect.
Being the PSR is behind a sulphuric acid battery, down in a dark damp recluse place, out of sight and out of a maintenance minded person, it becomes a suspect.
Especially the connector, it's ground wiring from that harness.
Since your car is not working while it's colder, it's not a thermal related issue.
It could be sometimes and in that case, it is recommended to service the thermal heat sink paste between its base and the mounting block.
How often to this is not written any where that I know of!
As my own inclination, I think every six years would be plenty. But since this is 2015, you could "notch" the old memory channels for every five years, so it comes out even!
That way that muilti-pin connector always get its "due or do" as well!
Hope this speeds along the learning process!
Phil
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Thank you much, Phil, for this very helpful post!
I had a look, and, sho' 'nuff, right beside the battery on the inner fender is the Power Stage! Next plan is to remove battery, carefully remove power stage, clean all ground things and replace. I'll clean the connection with terminal cleaner when I check the resistance between the PS terminals and those of the coil against those given in the manual. I'll pick up some conductive paste in town before I do this, too, and apply as indicated.
Your explanation of what does what is much appreciated. Disinclines me to "hot wire" the thing with a points distributor, even if I had one, which I don't. And the multi-part system you describe is admittedly elegant, when it's working!]
>It is a current handling electronic relay that powers the ignition coil.
>Actually it can be said it turns off the power or breaks the ground that make >the secondary windings dump spark towards the spark plugs. Just like the old >points but the cam is the CPS via the ICU!
I get it! The ECU is a low-current device that can't handle the amps needed to fire the coil, so they use a relay, in this case, electronic. If they'd called it a coil relay, I'd known right away. But, OK, it's a Power Stage. Thanks for nothin' Chiltons! 8-)
>You have EZ116K ignition.
Thank you! Splains why I've been having some trouble finding stuff!
> The CPS is the black thingy behind the red pipe >thingy hidden behind the cylinder head thingy. You need a flashlight and a >mirror to see it, and two elbows on your left arm to reach it on your '92.
I DID see a red tube down there behind the engine. Can't imagine reaching it with anything without dropping the rear tranny mount, meaning shift linkage etc., but my prayers are that it won't be necessary go any further than the PS and coil. Just clinked the link to the photo! A picture IS worth 1000! But the part about dropping the tranny mount still applies, I fear. But First Things First!
It was also helpfully suggested to me by Amarin that I check my OBD codes. First thing I did, but thanks! Code returned was 1-1-1 The Warrior is content.
No Blame. but then, no spark, either! ;-)
Man, I LOVE this board! Voices from the night! The battle continues. Once again, much appreciated!
ps
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Hi there ps!
I am sure glad to hear that you get it!
I will feel better if you find something too!
It's like having a stew with the same challenge to fill the tummy. It just now instead of a stove used to heat it, it's been microwaved with electronics!
A liitle more spark of voltage, they say? Without the points burning up!
Also they get to monkey around with the timing on the fly, with a knock sensor and all!
If you have to exchange that CPS, I found that a quarter inch drive socket setup work good.
I use a swivel or universal joint with extensions. My trick is to find a rubber "O" ring that slips around the knuckle joint but fits closely down around the pin ears. It stiffens the joint and holds it straighter for you to settle down on top of the head of the bolt.
I use the "O" ring trick on all my sizes of universal drive joints.
Makes me feel more like the young man, I used to be!
As a young man, I was able to stare down towards many things, in "dark places" and with imagination, I knew intuitively where to put my tool! ):-)
Nowadays, I have to use those head mounted head lamps to free up the hands for a mirror!
(::-) Darn those bifocals or narrow transitions glasses. They don't mix well with the modern day cars built with some "pancake hands"!
Time is so relentless.
It's hard enough to see around my body, let alone "in next to" that firewall!
Front wheel drives, I shun like a plague any knowledge when with friends or relatives!
I have seen timing chains and serpentine belts on some Dodge V6 engines, in the junkyard, that would make a roller coaster designer take notice!
Of course, their behind some covers up against strut towers!
No Wonder, these engines were stripped of accessories and vital parts on the ground!
The CPS, in retrospect, is a cake walk!
Phil
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I wonder if anyone has a procedure for testing this thing. I think it's probably just a MOSFET or some such, and that putting some voltage on two pins should result in a voltage or pulse on another 2 pins. Anyone any ideas?
ps
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Pulled the coil relay/power stage/ignition module and its heatsink off the inner fender this afternoon. Disassembly showed the interface between them to be dull and corroded - current theory is that the poor thermal contact allowed the unit to overheat and it finally burnt out. There is a test described in the manual - looking for a temporary voltage jump between 2 connector pins while cranking engine. It's currently snowing out there just now, although the brick's in the carport, it's still dark and ugly out there. I'll do the check tomorrow morning and in all likelihood be ordering a fresh module soon thereafter. I'll let you know how it goes....
ps
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I've never had a Power Stage fail, but I've had several Crank Position Sensors fail. The insulation fails near the sensor, from heat and vibration. You probably won't see any degradation of the cable jacket, which covers the three insulated wires.
When Crank Position Sensor fails, you don't get a code. At least I didn't.
--
john
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Thanks for that, John!
I think I've got it, though, for the following reasons:
1) The interface between the powerstage and its heatsink
was spotty and corroded. I've cleaned of the heatsink.
2) There is a testing procedure defined in the Haynes manual.
Says to look for a pulsing voltage from 1-4VDC on pin
5 of the stage connector while cranking the engine. Although
it's too fast to say precisely, It looks about ballpark with
my analog multimeter, and my digital meter jumps about a lot,
reading a number of voltages within the range.
So I think I'm good. I just ordered a powerstage so I'll know in a week
or so. I'll report back.
Now, all I have to do is get used to calling a solid-state relay a "power
stage." 8-)
Just out of curiosity, John, could you describe how you managed to get the CPS out of there? I've only been able to see mine sighting very carefully down past the front of the A/C gizmo on the firewall, and can't imagine how I'd get a wrench on the nut, let alone find the connector on the wire, or even the wire.
Do you get it from the bottom? Have to drop the tranny at the rear mount? Looks like a great job for a trained elf! 8-)
Again, thanks for the feedback!
ps
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I've looked at functioning Power Stages and seen the corrosion on the heat sink. That seems common, I just put heat sink compound in between the Power Stage and the heat sink.
I've only replaced the Crank Position Sensor on 740/940 series. It is more difficult to access on a 240 series. I'd probably read Art's approach to that before I started, but I'm sure I could do it in place. The worst you'd have to do is take the transmission support crossmember loose and lower the back of the transmission. I've removed and re-installed several M46s from 240s, and I always get the top bell housing bolt installed and tightened without much trouble.
In my part of the US very little salt is used on the roads in the winter, and the vehicles don't suffer from much corrosion. However, I always use some corrosion inhibitor on the CPS and the bolt holding it in place
--
john
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Coil relay. Yep.
I predict replacing the power stage won't help if you are still looking for the reason it fires on the upstroke during cranking. The way a power stage dies does not change the timing.
It is not MOSFET, it is bipolar. I've never had one die yet. Thought I did a few weeks ago one cold morning, but swapping that one must have cleaned off a bit of oxide on the connector, as the suspect module is doing fine just dangling in front of the battery now.
When you get to the point where you decide to change the crank position sensor, you will search this board and find dozens of different attacks. Be aware the job is a bit different depending on whether the car is a 7/9 series or a 240, and specially different for a 240 of years 91-93 as compared with 89-90. So you'll hear all sorts of cussing but it might not be strong enough.
You will read of 1/4" drive extensions, flex tools, even some who think you need to lower the tranny to reach its mounting bolt. You'll read of cases where the water followed the broken sheathing into the sensor, and the rust of the magnet inside swelled the sensor to make it one with the bracket. And you'll hear people describe the bracket as delicate under-designed alloy (because they broke it and now do need to drop the trans) and if you read enough, you'll also hear about unfortunate folks who have dropped the bolt down the hole only to have it mangle the tone ring which develops your timing.
When you get to that point, keep my next words in mind. Use a mirror and a flashlight and commit the sensor's every feature to memory. Place a sturdy piece of plywood over the left fender and cam cover to lie on. Train your left hand to use a stubby 10mm combination wrench. Hope you haven't left it so long the sensor is stuck in the bracket -- that's your real prayer here.
Go back to my earlier replies to your post and read the links contained in them. It is all in there. Read.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
The older we get, the fewer things seem worth waiting in line for.
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>I predict replacing the power stage won't help if you are still looking for the >reason it fires on the upstroke during cranking. The way a power stage dies does >not change the timing.
Thanks for the reply, Art, and I concur. As much as I'd like to think that somehow a relay of any kind twixt ECU and coil could possibly advance spark, even when it's on the way out, I can't. I CAN imagine it retarding, maybe, but not advancing. So that, once I get spark again, will be another issue. 8-(
I'm still allowing myself to hope/dream that replacing the Power Stage will do the trick, though, since as I said earlier I'm seeing a pulse voltage from the ECU on cranking. I'll know soon enough! 8-)
As for the treatments of the CPS replacement scenario, thanks, but I sure hope I won't need it! We'll soon see how happy my elves are!
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My new Power Stage was taking too long to get here, so just for fun, I thought I'd run with the scenario suggested earlier and investigate the possibility that it was just bad connections at the terminal/connector interface, although both looked clean and decent upon my initial inspection when I took it out. So, I reconnected the old one, unplugged, replugged etc a few times, then gave it a try.
SPARK! A lovely big fat blue sparking at the plug! In fact, she almost started with just a few test turns. As I had the plug out and on the cam cover, I didn't want it to start till I got it back in. So I spun the plug back in, fully expecting that I'd likely have to clean and re-oil the cylinders since I'd been doing quite a bit of spark checking by spinning engine lately. But no!; she flashed right up!
I took her down to the shop, so's I could clear the carport for the current daily driver, and once I got her safely inside, turned her off and tried a few starts just to check.
Every time, and right away, too! But the best part is this: No rr-rr-UH! rr-rr-UH! Advanced spark symptom!
How, I axed meself, could the two have been related? Then it hit me!
I've been reading a list for some time on a motorcycle made in India called the Royal Enfield Bullet. It was made from 1955 until 2005 or so in a points-fired kickstart-only cast-iron barreled 350 or at the end optional 500 single. Stone simple and a lovely thing to behold. Being a big single, it was hard for the unintiated to start.
Major problem was, as with all big singles, "kick-back." If the spark was too advanced, it responded to kickstart attempts by comin' back at ya! So a lot of user queries were solved by advice to see to the ignition timing - setting points, usually, and/or moving contact breaker body in direction of cam rotation, to "ball park" the timing, and final setting once warm and running.
But around 2006 or 7, they got too fancy for themselves, and introduced the "Electra," so named for its electronic ignition and sprag-driven electric starter. Lots of problems. Now, kickback didn't just make things interesting for the kicker, it reverse-drove the somewhat mick-mouse sprag drive, thus destroying same in short order. And, as these things got on the market, it turned out that kickback wasn't due to the non-adjustable EI timing, but that it occurred in instances of starting attempts with a low battery! Factory and a number of dealers got into investigating this phenomenon, and it turned out that the EI ADVANCED in cases of low input voltage! Low voltage starting advance was such a problem, in fact that that the factory came up with a modified ignition module to handle it.
Well, I got to thinking about this on the way back from the shop where I'd left Barbie the Brick, and thought, hey!; I'll bet the connection at the Power Amp was deteriorating, on the way to none, for some time, and that the lower input voltage thus pulsed from the ECU was resulting in advanced starting timing!
So that, in the humble opinion of this writer, is how the two symptoms were related, and I'm happy to report that simple connector-scritching seems to have solved the problem! When the new amp gets here, I'll put it in there just 'cause I have one now, and I'll be generous with the contact spray when I connect it, too! Or maybe even conductive grease? I've yet to use the stuff, since greasy connections always seemed wrong to me, but I'll ask around. But it looks to me as if the advanced starting was due to the poor connection to pin 5 of the PA connector.
In closing, let me say that I much appreciate the help y'all have given me on this ticklish situation. I've been wondering what I'd do if I ever ran into problems with new-school EFI and/or EI troubles, and I feel better now.
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Glad to hear you nailed it down without having to just throw in the part and have it work!
With that advancing symptom it was throwing a good curve! CPS or what?
Art has always made statements about the connector getting moved around helps it!
I think he now has some unbiased proof for his notes and the information will be more fact than theory.
The low battery voltage is, as you both say, can cause weird things to happen.
My trust in knowing high voltage supplied in big equipment is one thing until you reverse the scenario with low voltage towards "electronic gizmos," be it watches, remote controls or cars!
They can run on almost nothing but not quite yet!
Nonvolatile memory can spoof ones mind.
The things are in a completly different "nano" world!
Thanks for cranking us up with your update news as well!
Phil
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I like your analysis where the battery is pulled too low for the ignition computer to keep count of the tone ring during the compression phase of cranking, thereby causing the ill-timed spark and kickback. Don't have much faith in the poor connection at the power stage being responsible though, as the timing would not be directly affected by that, yet it bears some reasonable doubt as a secondary effect given the extra cranking (and battery drain) caused by the weak connection at the amplifier.
As for the "conductive" grease, there are a lot of folks who believe the products sold for aluminum/copper interfaces in home and industrial power wiring (Ox-Gard, NoOx) are also applicable to the tin contacts in our low voltage connectors. I'm skeptical, but that makes no difference as I know it will not hurt to fill the connectors with this instead of ordinary silicone grease, just for the purpose of excluding moisture. In other words, it is not conductive in the sense that it would bridge adjacent pins, only aids conduction on a molecular scale where it directly coats the metals.
I think your plan will bring you success, and maybe you won't have to deploy the elves quite yet.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
No one ever says, "It's only a game", when their team is winning.
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I've been able to photograph the CPS using an iPhone. You'll have to do it in the "blind", that is, you won't be in a position to view through the viewfinder. You may have to try several times to get a photo with the right focus and in the viewing frame. This will help you determine the condition of the wire insulation.
For the fun of Volvos,
Mike
--
'92 245DL, '90 760 GLT
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posted by
someone claiming to be Ray s
on
Tue Mar 17 11:32 CST 2015 [ RELATED]
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I have had a power stage fail, it also gives no code.
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Hi snidey,
You don't need to test the CPS just yet. I'm pretty sure your 1992 car has the the on board diagnosis (OBD). It can detect CPS failure. Check for any codes.
Amarin.
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You have EZ116K ignition. The CPS is the black thingy behind the red pipe thingy hidden behind the cylinder head thingy. You need a flashlight and a mirror to see it, and two elbows on your left arm to reach it on your '92.
I have no clue whether you read or understood any of the help I offered last week, but if you ask questions, we will answer. Or if you just want to jaw about cars that's fine too.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Progression of engineering eductation: a good planner needs to know at least a little bit about a great variety of topics, and engineers often suceeed by specializing, so we planners like to say that over time, planners learn less and less about more and more until eventually they know nothing about everything. Engineers learn more and more about less and less until they eventually know everything about nothing.
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