I have a 1990 240 wagon with M47. The trans still works well but the syncros have started to whine, especially when temps dive into the sub freezing range.

The car/trans have 330k plus on them and I am starting to plan for the eventual need to fix the trans. Question is, assuming I am comparing a complete M47 rebuild vs. a T-5 swap, what are the real world pros and cons? I am not specifically concerned about keeping the car stock as it already has IPD springs, sway bars, links and poly bushings installed. I will also soon install the IPD cam and adjustable timing gear. I don't need the uprated power capability of the T-5 but I sure would like some real improvements to the quality of the shifting experience. I have replaced the bushings in the shifter already but there is nothing close to precision in the way the trans. shifts. Anyone have an old short shift kit for the M47 laying around?

I appreciate the advice, experience and thoughts ahead of time.

mark

I can attest to the reliability of the M46. 330K miles in a turbo car.
I actually rewired the OD to be available in all forward gears and the OD still did not complain. It did have to be going about 10MPH to engage though.
Gary

hello volvo 4d- interesting change. curious how did you do it. you now actually have an 8 speed transmission. probably had to bypass the limiter switch on the throttle to the solenoid on the trans tail. old american borg warner ods were all like that. there the od kick in speed was 28mph. wonder what it is on the volvo . with the thinner torque of the 240 4cyl , the kick in is probably higher. thanks oldduke

olduke--the laycock OD does not have any throttle switch. It only has a shift knob switch and 4th gear only switch to power the OD solenoid on Volvos. On other makes like Sunbeam, Jaguar, Austin-Healey, MG and Triumph they are wired to allow OD in 3rd too and in at least one make--2nd. The reason for the "other gear lock-out" is that the OD involves a shaft that is "uni-directional". Backing up with the OD engaged will ruin the shaft. OD can be engaged at speeds from 40+. I drove a 144S wired up for all the gears (with warning buzzer if reverse were engaged) till I had a chance to replace a bad lock-out switch. It was fun having choices---take this turn in 3rd? 2ndOD?
To give you an idea of the strength of the OD -- last year I sold an M46 from a '85 740 turbo to a fellow who only wanted the OD--he was adapting them for use in Dodge pickup trucks. -- Dave

hi heck- only saw one laycock od and that was back in 77 in a gremlin. it had a od switch but it only worked in high gear which was 3d in the gremlin and a lockout which prevented an od shift into any other gear. think the 240 m46 od was a laycock model not a borg warner. thats a strange adaptation of a volvo od into a dodge p/u truck because dodge had their own 4 speed od trans which was a regular 4speed trans where you would manually shift into the 4th speed which was a .73 od. this avoids the electric wires and solenoid just like the m47 did. regards oldduke

All the OD units in Volvos are Laycock. My cousins Dodge van had that 4-speed gearbox. When his original got trashed a replacement took a while to find - and was pricey. The fellow making the Dodge/Laycock conversions may be taking advantage of the OD feature in the lower gears too -- Dave

hi heck - had that od trans in a dodge wagon and a duster. was a good trans, got good mpg(29)and easy to do a clutch job unlike these fwd nightmares. box jammed in 2d gear at 260k and replaced it with a junkyard box for $150back in the 90s. . they are hard to find now and i surmise pricey. those m46 od boxes recommended as a replacement for the m47 are i guess pricey too. what do yout think one would go for in a yard? cant find m47s so far. thanks tons oldduke

Just my two cents.

So two years ago my auto died in my 89' 245. I've always wanted a manual so off to the local PNP I went. I found two cars with manuals.

I pulled one all the way from the flywheel back to and including the rear axle. This one went in the car and I too have the whine in 5th gear at highway speeds, so it will have to be rebuilt eventually.

The second car I pulled only the flywheel and transmission for a later rebuild.

The transmissions themselves only cost me $120 bucks a piece and I made sure that none of the gears were stripped before I left the yard.

Upon investigating a rebuild kit I was able to find one for $350 which was all the gears and synchro's and a gasket kit I believe is available at FCP.

My plan is to disassemble the one currently sitting on the bench and measure each bearing and/or find its parts number and source them via an alternative route. The synchro's, not so sure about yet, but I'll a plan by the time I get to it.

I figured I could most likely find the parts for about $100.00 and my labor to tear it down and put it all back together.

Hey I appreciate the info. I have been looking for a used M47 for about
two years locally without any success. I know I could go farther afield
and potentially locate one but as this problem is not yet a critical one
for me I have not aggressively pursued a replacement.

I am sure my M47 needs syncros (cold weather whine) but I can live with it
as it shifts fine (except for being 330k sloppy.) I am fortunate to have
time on my side to look for parts and listen to advice and the experience
of the community. I would really like to have something that has a crisper
shift which is what pushes me to the T5.

I will ultimately make the decision based on what parts and deals I come
across from now until the need becomes a high priority.

thx for the input!

Here's a link to one site that may help.

http://www.britishv8.org/articles/borg-warner-t5-id-tags.htm

If you are going to get a T-5, make sure it's a "World Class" version.
--
Bob: Son's XC70, my 83 240, 89 745 (V8) and XC60. Also '77 MGB and some old motorcycles

I just went through this without the ability to plan the work in advance. The only rebuild kit we could find for a M47 was over a thousand dollars just for the parts. So the search started for a used M47. Wow those things are getting rare. It took an extensive search to find a good used M47, and I had to ship it from St Louis to Charleston, SC. I did look into the cost of a T5 rebuild kit and it was less than $200 for the parts. Given the ability to have the car off the road, I would plan the T5 rebuild and swap. Just hoping I will not have to think about it for a few more years.

hello backfield- could you clarify what you mean by a t5 swap. do you mean a tremec custom made replacement trans due to exhorbitant m47 parts cost? $1k for just parts for a m47 seem silly. thanks tons oldduke

if you are contemplating a t5 swap you will need to buy an adapter plate for the trans to bellhousing and an adapter plate for the driveshaft to rear axle.

the drive shaft will need to be made special or use a mustang late 80's early 90's one piece.

do you really want to go this route for a nondescript old 4 banger

I appreciate the input and conversation from the various points of view. I think in the end, the question for me is not cost as I really want to keep the car on the road. At 330k miles the M47 held up well and still works well but the cold weather syncro whine is a tell tale hint to start planning.

Keeping an M47 in the car to keep it stock does not look to be a wise investment, power plant not withstanding. Finding a good used M47 may or may not get me where I want to be which is a viable DD that will take me to 500k with the B230 or what ever finds its way under the hood when the time comes.

Cost not withstanding, I think $1300 for a T5 is likely a fair investment to keep the car on the road. I have other toys to keep me busy searching for speed (Ducati, Triumph, Alfa Romeo and a few Jeeps)so the brick is my covered wagon that makes me smile when I drive it.

Maybe this needs to change threads but now I am wondering which of the adapter plates people find to be the most flexible or easy to work with?

thanks to all who provided their two cents. Greatly appreciated!!

m

http://yhst-26451710505916.stores.yahoo.net/b2t5trad.html

http://yhst-26451710505916.stores.yahoo.net/vob2b2enpa.html

as for the driveshaft to rear axle i think you have to make one up

Keep in mind the need for a driveshaft to be made up. I've swapped a 1963 Oldsmobile all aluminum 215 V8 into a '76 265. That swap involved the Oldsmobile Roto-Hydramatic which had an output shaft u-joint yoke and a two piece driveshaft. I had a driveshaft specialty shop combine a Volvo front section with the Olds front yoke to go along with a stock Volvo rear section. Now the engine is in a a '93 245 bolted up to an '84 Camaro T-5. The T-5 has the slip joint yoke at the transmission end so the shop offered to make a one piece shaft. I elected to have them make it a two piece affair so the driveshaft angle at the diff would be as stock. Figure something like 200 to have a driveshaft made up (my 2-piece shaft included 3 new u-joints, new carrier bearing and rubber housing and balancing ran $175 here on Long Island a few years ago).
Not discussed is this option---swap in a more reliable and available M-46. All the parts would be bolt-on and could be had with a donor car and a little bit of wiring.
As for a quick-shift type kit for your M47 -- I'd say forget it. You'll never make an M45, 46 or 47 a slick shifter - they are just clunky by nature. The close gates of a quick shift kit make it that much more likely to hit the wrong gear at the worst time. Unless you're running on a dragstrip the tiny split second saved doesn't compare to the time spent having to redo a blown tranny or motor.
The T-5 is good in that respect. Drive an MGB to really see what a nice gearbox feels like. -- Dave

hi trichard and heck- been following this thread since i am anticipating when,my m47 blows up although it is running well now. so the t 5 is a chevrolet manual trans probably 5 speed. looks like rebuilding the m47 is doa or will take me to the cleaners especially a few years from now. used jy m47 may then be a stinko option too. they are rare now. why do you think the m46 which is older yet is better. that had the 5th gear overdrive, but that was not a manual shift top gear. it was semi automatic actuated electrically by sensing engine speed through a servo and wiring. it was just like the borg warner over drive in pre 68 american cars. this was trouble prone in the american cars and i surmise in the volvos. i think the m45 was a straight 4 speed w/o od. give me some details on the m46. thanks tons oldduke

oldduke, I'll answer some of your questions - as far as I know - The T5 isn't a GM transmission - it's a Borg Warner and it was used as a T5 in Ford cars too. In fact, it's likely the Ford version is what folks would use for conversions--I think they are more plentiful (think Mustang). There are mounting differences, shift location, clutch, etc. For my purposes it made sense to find a GM version as my Oldsmobile bellhousing was machined for the 3-speed of the day - and the Borg Warner T-10 (the four speed of the day - used by GM and Ford). The GM T5 matched the 4-speed bolt pattern, input shaft length and diameter. Ironically, the clutch was actually a Ford sourced part.
The M46 is a sturdy transmission. The Laycock deNormanville overdrive is just as sturdy -- used by Jaguar, MG, Triumph, Rover, etc., etc. It does not engage automatically (unless the switch - or relay which engages it is in the "on" position). When you get to the desired cruising speed through the lower gears and into top gear you then switch the OD on and through an electric solenoid and internal hydraulic pressure a conical clutch engages a planetary gearset giving you the overdrive ratio (.80 on the Volvo).
In college my brother had a 1953 Studebaker coupe - 6 cylinder - 3-speed + o'drive (a Borg Warner unit). It was stuck in OD and dog slow because of that -- but gave great mpg on the highway. -- Dave

hi heck- what you say is correct. the borg warner od had been around in most american cars since the late 30s. all i saw were hooked to the back of a 3 speed manual trans. most had a ratio of about .73 to 1. they were discontinued in 68. all those years of production by borg warner created low trouble unit which allowed most of the bugs to be eliminated. the only trouble i saw was electrical, dead solenoid due to wiring failure or corrosion on contacts. one interesting feature was the free wheeling which would allow you to shift without the clutch, between gears when rolling. you only had to clutch it when stopping or starting. the downside which i think contributed to its demise was heightened brake wear and heavier braking needed during hard stops. some thought it was a safety issue as cars became heavier and had more powerful v8s through the 60s. i saw a denormanville laycock od in manual shift amc cars(hornets and gremlins) in 74 when american cars were scrambling to compete with the flood of foreign fwd mpg champions. still think the rwd volvo 240 and dodge slantsix compacts with 3 pedals offer the best compromise if you can find one. can you keep a secret? my92 245 m47 regularly pumps 27 mpg around town and 30 on the hwy. keep it quiet since the pc crowd will want to confiscate it . regards oldduke

i have always thought the aluminum m47 case was flimsily designed for its purpose.

insufficiently robust and strong

in my experience it is never worth rebuilding an m47 box.
some of the bearings are very expensive with no aftermarket.

find a used m47.

the t5 swap is much more than just buying the t5 with absolutely no upside to you if it is moving power for a stock engine.

hi trichard- i have the same concern with my 92 245 m47. while all is fine with the system right now it does have about 240k miles and is 23 years old. the junkyards are getting real tough with 240 availability. this opens the door wide to shysterism. give me some ball park figures. most of the time shot manual transmissions need input and output shaft bearings and sometimes sliding shaft bearings. in any event the trans typically has to be taken apart. usually the gears themselves are ok. have not seen one yet in a yard. from what i am told a good junkyard m47 is at least $500. although you advise against rebuilding, what does the dealer charge for these bearings? aftermarket realities? always expect and get the worst from volvo dealers. dont worry about me succumbing to sticker shock. thanks tons oldduke

it is not that the cost of just a few of the bearings are a 100 dollars plus/minus out of all the rest of the bearings you have to buy and are dealer only.

these boxes are just not engineered to hold up to huge mileages. it is imo a weak transmission design which works well enough if you care for it but never holds up to abuse and or neglect.

Just keep in mind, unless you're planning on sourcing a new one ($$$), a large percentage of the old used T5's need rebuilds as well.
--
82 242 5.0L; '10 Cayman S; '15 Honda Fit

Michael, Appreciate that note. It is obvious in hindsight but I had not considered that before you mentioned it.

Actually, I was concerned about parts availability for the M47 as all of the posts I see on the subject are several years old.

m