It has been raining steadily since I returned home and I have had to leave the 940 outside. I took out the passenger's mat to clean it and found the carpet beneath it to be sopping wet. This is not the first time this has happened. I usually keep the car in the garage however and it is not then a problem.

What are the most likely culprits? I took out some of the lower plastic molding along the right hand side of the car but this didn't reveal much to me. I suspect there is some kind of leak from the front cowl vent. I will try dousing the cowl with a bucket of water but if there is something that is a more likely suspect I'd appreciate your input.

Hello,

If you could dismantle the wiper panel (where the wiper shafts go thru) you would see a large black plastic cover directly above the a/c air intake (like a small roof). This plastic panel is attached using black mastic (bitumen) substance. No screws. Reattaching this using new mastic could seal against leak.

I have attached plastic netting (aka mosquito net) underneath the air inlet grille of the wiper panel using mastic. So far its free of any debris.

Another thing to check is the venting panel at the lower body frame where the door hinges are attached. Weirdly this panel has no holes for venting air despite its name. To access this panel you have to remove the side cosmetic cover at the passenger well. The venting panel is about square and black. There's a large O ring seal between this panel and the body frame. This could be leaking also. I used RTV to augment the sealing. While you're at it clear any fallen debris trapped in-between the inner fender and body frame.

Hope these helps.

Amarin.

When you say the 'side cosmetic cover at the passenger well', are you talking about the kick panel, i.e., the panel that covers the EU? I have that one off right now and will try to find a square black panel. Can you supply a rough measurement of the panel? Two inches by two, etc?

So far I have tried to douse the car in various places but haven't been able to find an obvious leak. Maybe I should try dying some water and seeing whether I can get a trace.

FWIW, when I had my problem, it wouldn't show up with just a hose.
Instead, the car had to be moving so as to pressurize that cavity from the air blowing through it. That's when it would leak by the solid vent panel edges (that were supposed to be sealed).
--
"Differences of opinions should be tolerated, but not if they're too different' - Sharon Craig

Interesting! In my case the pattern of wetness on the floor is concentrated on the central part of the carpet, slightly towards the aft end of the carpet. I also think that most of the current wetness came from a major rainstorm we had shortly after we came back from Mexico. The car was absolutely dry for about three weeks while we were in Mexico and the southern United States.

But we did run into serious rain on the way down in Oregon and then in Snoqualmie Pass on the way back. Perhaps there was residual wetness that has persisted.

Worth checking out. I think I will go ahead on the assumption that this vent panel is the major culprit and see what I can find. Thanks for your thoughts.

Hello,

The venting panel is number 1 in the diagram (just for illustration). There's another of same panel on the passenger side. About 3 x 3 inch size. Black. Yes the side cosmetic panel is the side kick panel. Sorry for the different terminology.

Its behind the EU. EU has to be unscrewed and moved sideways to get a better view of this venting panel. The wires can be pushed aside for better view. The panel is push-mounted onto the body frame - you can pry it out easily.

For better access to repair the EU has to be disconnected as how Spook had mentioned.

Hope this helps.

diagram link: https://www.brickboard.com/GALLERY/volvopic.htm?id=11554

Amarin.

Good morning amarin.

Loved the image. How does one go about getting images like that? Makes all the difference if one can see the setup before tackling it.

Good morning muskox37,

Well I'm half-way here across the world and its my turn for morning breaking! The image was taken from Volvopartswebstore.com

The wet carpet thing happened to me years ago and that's how I found out about this 'hidden' panel. Maybe in much earlier model cars it was really meant for venting. In my case the leak was quite bad. When I hosed water down the wiper panel air inlets I can see it dribbled out from the venting panel seams.

Regards,
Amarin.

The "venting panel" leaking is exactly what happened to my '86 745. Actually rusted a hole in the driver's floor.
--
"Differences of opinions should be tolerated, but not if they're too different' - Sharon Craig

Dear muskox37,

Hope you're well. Is a sunroof present? If so, clogged drains can cause water to back-up, although that usually causes wetness in the rear passenger footwells.

Have you had occasion to run the defroster? That generates condensation, which - if the condensate drain (a stub that barely protrudes from the firewall) is blocked - can cause water to drain onto the front passenger's footwell.

Finally, if the water is absorbed into a clean, white paper towel, does the towel turn color? If the towel turns a light green, then it is likely that the heater core has pin-holed, allowing coolant to escape.

Has the windshield been replaced? If so, improper application of the sealant might have created gaps, allowing water to enter.

Hope this helps.

Yours faithfully,

Spook

Thanks again for your input Spook.

1. There is no sunroof.
2. Towel did not turn green.
3. Windshield has been changed I think. The windshield surround is rusty. Your information would point in that direction. My windshield man said that untrained technicians are often employed by windshield replacement shops and that they damage the 'bed' on which the windshield is placed. I will try dousing the windshield tomorrow to see if I can get some obvious leaking. I doused the cowl are but water seemed to run out of it properly.
Windshield information is as follows:

CRINAMEX
MR
AS-1 CM-44 DOT-46
CLS NOM 1016-I
3
I would guess that this is not an original Volvo windshield.

"Windshield has been changed I think. The windshield surround is rusty. Your information would point in that direction. My windshield man said that untrained technicians are often employed by windshield replacement shops and that they damage the 'bed' on which the windshield is placed. I will try dousing the windshield tomorrow to see if I can get some obvious leaking. I doused the cowl are but water seemed to run out of it properly."

The windshield on our 1997 960 leaked in the manner you described until I removed and replaced the molding with new. I resealed everything with polyurethane roofing adhesive. The rusty surround and replaced windshield is the problem. I sealed the new molding to the bodywork with poly (easy to do neatly if you mask carefully)and no more leaks.

The proper repair is to have the windshield removed and the surround fixed. This can be $$ depending on the degree of rust and bodywork needed.

The molding on my windshield is rough. It is rusting and the plasticized covering is lifting off. I haven't dealt with a windshield before so am a little careful about having a go at it. I expect I would ruin the old molding in the effort to remove it. Were you able to get replacement molding from Volvo? Or did you use an aftermarket product.

Have you checked the overflow tank? If it's low you have the fun heater core replacement in your future. I'll bet this is the case.
You can get a right angle 5/8" barbed fitting, and put the heater lines on it thus bypassing the core til you fix it. Then, I suggest a copper/brass core which can run $90-130.

Jerry,

Would the paper towel test not eliminate this possibility? The towel did not turn green from coolant and I am thus assuming that the water is coming from the outside, probably from a windshield leak. Thanks for your thoughts regardless.

Couple of other things to add to this discussion:

1. In addition to a paper towel turning green if it is coolant, you would also smell antifreeze if it is leaking into the passenger compartment.

2. If the bottom of your door panel is wet or has signs of previous water damage, that means that water is leaking past the interior door panel plastic sleeve/seal and is dripping down to the inside of the car instead of out the drains in the bottom, outside of the door. Check the bottom of your passenger door panel for water/wetness immediatedly after a rainstorm. You could also use a garden hose to test it for leaks.

If that area is wet there are most likely 2 causes: The first would be that the interior door panel sleeve/seal is torn and not keeping the water from dripping to the inside instead of to the outside of the door. If that door panel has been removed at some point then it is highly possible that the sleeve is mangled. The second possibilty is that the small drain(s) are clogged. That would be the nice, easy fix...:)

Thanks jwalker. In my case the wet spot stops short of the door and the door seems to be in good shape. I will check again later however because .

I removed the plastic cover strip that runs along the bottom right hand side of the interior and am now trying to figure out how to remove the right side kick panel. I could see no moisture anywhere along the space that had been under the grey plastic lower strip panel so I think the door is not the issue. But I appreciate the suggestion regardless.

Dear muskox37,

Hope you're well. If, by "right side kick panel", you refer to the plastic panel, just forward of the front passenger's door, remove it as follows:
(a) move the front seat all the way back
(b) using the tip of a knife (or a small flat-blade screw-driver) gently pry-up the two small rectangular plastic plates, at the front end of the thresh-hold strip;
(c) remove the screw, under each of the rectangular plastic plates, which screws helps to secure the front end of thresh-hold strip
(d) remove the screw (T-20, if I recall correctly) that secures the plastic kick panel to the metal bracket, behind which is mounted the Engine Control Module
(e) grip the plastic kick panel and pull it about 1/4" towards the rear of the car;
(f) free the tip of the kick panel's "finger" - which extends along the door opening's front edge, towards the underside of the glove box - using your fingers to pull the finger's tip fron under the edge of the edge of the molding
(g) pull the kick panel straight back towards the seats.

In all this, be advised that 20-year-old plastic is brittle. It is better to do this on a day, when ambient temperatures are 75 degrees. That makes plastic a tad less brittle.

Hope this helps.

Yours faithfully,

Spook

Thanks again for your valuable input Spook. The T-20 screw you mention. Is that obvious once the threshold panel has been lifted? In my case I have the entire threshold panel out of the car at the moment. I will take a good look around the kick panel today to see if I can find that screw. I think I can understand the rest of the directions and remove the kick panel once I have found the screw.

Dear muskox37,

Hope you're well. I was in error. On the right side of the passenger footwell, the kick panel is NOT secured with a screw (the driver's door-side kick panel is secured with a screw). The passenger's door-side kick panel slides onto the steel frame, in which is mounted the engine control module.

To remove the kick panel, use a flat-blade screw-driver to free the door-side edge of the kick panel from the black flexible weatherstripping, which goes over the kick panel's door-side edge. Once the edge of kick panel is atop the weatherstripping, pull the kick panel back (towards the seats) by no more than 1/4". Then, free the top of the kick panel's finger from under the trim piece, that extends downwards alongside the door opening. This requires some care, as plastic gets brittle with age.

Once the kick panel has been removed, you'll see the engine control module. If you want to remove the engine control module, be sure first to disconnect the negative battery cable clamp from the negative battery terminal. Put the negative battery cable clamp into a plastic bag, to isolate it. This cuts all power to everything in the car, so be sure you have the radio security code.

Hope this helps.

Yours faithfully,

Spook

Good morning Spook,

I will try to put a picture of the setup as it now stands into this message. I am still concerned about disconnecting the ECU--don't want to introduce a bunch of new snags to stand by the old ones. So I haven't done it yet. I took out the seat so that I could release the carpet and start to dry off the floor panels and sponge backings. Will work on the seat today.

From what I can see of the area behind the ECU it does not look rusty or water stained. Just wondering if I am barking up the wrong tree at this point.

Don't know if I got the image uploaded or not at this point.

Dear muskox37,

Hope you're well. I'm concerned about splashing water anywhere near the Engine Control Unit (ECU) or its wiring harness. If you wish to do this test, I'd remove the ECU completely and cover its connector with a plastic bag, heavily taped to prevent any water getting on the connector. The wiring harness is too stiff to allow it to be moved away from the bracket, on which the ECU is mounted.

As is so with a leak in a house roof, the place where the water drips from the ceiling can be far from the actual leak source.

Is there any sign of wetness in the carpet/padding at the front of the passenger's footwell? That's the area I'd expect to be wet, if the water were coming from the windshield area.

Hope this helps.

Yours faithfully,

Spook

Thanks again Spook,

I don't know if you saw the picture. It was here at one point and then gone the next time. Not showing right now.

The theory was that the vent that sits behind the ECU, i.e. to the right of it, might be leaking. Others have had problems with this vent apparently. So far I have not caught sight of it. I would have to disconnect and remove the ECU to get to it apparently. This leads to the concern about disconnecting a serviceable ECU in order to track down a water leak.

There is dampness at the front and of course at the bottom of the passenger's foot well. It probably is the windshield that is at fault. Should have started there. I think I will just button everything up here and then give the windshield a try. I needed to clean out underneath the seat anyways so at least that will get done.

Still have not mastered the art of putting up pictures with my posts. . . Alas . . .

picture

Dear muskox37,

Hope you're well. I looked at the photo. The fan motor is correctly marked.

Removing the ECU is not a problem, so long as you first disconnect the negative battery cable clamp from the negative battery terminal, and put the end of the negative battery cable clamp into a plastic bag. That cuts power to the ECU. You can then remove the wiring harness connector from the ECU. Put the connector into a plastic bag and carefully put tape around bag, where the bag's edges contact the wiring harness.

You'll probably have to remove the ECU mounting bracket. I've not so far had to do that. The parts diagram in Volvo VADIS - the superseded parts/service database - does not show any opening in the metalwork (body frame) behind the ECU. If there's an opening with a plug in it, then the plug should be shown on the parts diagram.

Even so, if it is there - and it has a part number - please advise.

Hope this helps.

Yours faithfully,

Spook

Good morning Spook,

I went out to the car this morning after having used it yesterday afternoon and evening. I had to leave it outside for about two hours.

There was considerable water on the floor this morning, perhaps a quarter cup or so.

I had only taken the car for a short ten minute drive to a local restaurant for dinner with friends. Mainly it was sitting in the rain. It almost seems like rain runoff is accumulating somewhere on the right hand side of the windshield and then funneling to the passenger side foot well.

The ECU is fully re-installed. I will not install the kick panel until I have found the leak which I am almost sure is coming from the windshield.

Thanks for your valuable input again Spook.

Dear muskox37,

Hope you're well. You've likely found the source of the leak. I had an '86DL and decided to replace the factory-installed windshield, because it was pitted by sand.

The installer did not impress me. Installing a windshield requires meticulous cleanliness, almost to the standard required of those who rebuild transmissions.

Surfaces must be surgically clean and the materials specified by Volvo must be used, exactly as Volvo specifies. Using other materials may work. But one risks the car's water-tight integrity and so electrical system integrity.

In short, I'd have the windshield removed and re-installed by someone, who will warranty the job against leaks, for at least five years. I presume there's no rust around or under the windshield moldings. If there's rust, that MUST be removed and the metal restored, before water-tight integrity can be assured.

Hope this helps.

Yours faithfully,

Spook

Good morning again Spook,

I think I am narrowing this down. I removed the side mouldings of the windshield yesterday and applied caulk along the passenger's side of the windshield. When I checked this morning there was still water on the floor but it had dropped a little on the ECU and in other places. I suspect I blocked the flow from its usual channels and it found other places to get to ground.

The cowl is still out but water flow through that channel is completely blocked.

I now think that the leak source is from the passenger side of the upper windshield. I removed the top moulding today and found it wet on the passenger side and dry on the driver side.

I also found out that the clips that hold the moulding are fairly easy to tap out and so have removed all of them on the passenger side.

I have been using some house door and window silicon to seal up the windshield but found that it peels off pretty easily so am looking for a good sealant. Perhaps you would have a recommendation.

It looks like I can leave the windshield in place and instead find a way to seal up the urethane adhesive that holds it in place. I need to talk to my body man about the four or five rust patches that have resulted from an improper installation of the replacement windshield.

My windshield guy showed me where an inexperienced installer had cut through the paint as he cut through the sealant in order to replace the glass. This caused the rust to flourish. It is the only rusty part of the car.

Anyways I have the 940 inside the garage now and will work on cleaning up the side channels of the windshield before I apply a a sealing caulk.

I will try to persuade my bodyguy to have a go at the rust patches.

Hope your day is going well. It stopped raining today for the first time in a week so I hope to do something other than repair a 940 windshield.

Dear muskox37,

Hope you're well. Applying silicone won't help. The windshield will have to removed. The rust on nearby metal work has to be removed, that cleaned metal has to be painted (at least several coats of primer), and then the windshield must be re-installed, by someone competent.

As a purely temporarly fix, you might use butyl rubber tape. It will work, if - and only if - it is applied to a dry, grease/oil-free surface. Clean the surface, onto which you want to apply the butyl, with methyl ethyl ketone (MEK, a chemical cousin of acetone), which is very flammable and carcinogenic. MEK will etch most paints, so use it carefully. MEK will remove every trace of grease, oil, dirt, etc. from the area onto which you want to apply the butyl rubber tape.

Butyl tape is usually black and comes on a roll, with release paper separating the layers of butyl. Butyl rubber tape can be had at places that supply those, who Heating/Air-conditioning work.

Butyl rubber is very (very, very, very) sticky. If the surface is dry and clean, butyl will adhere. Butyl does not harden, so will move with the windshield, as it expands (from heat) and shrinks (as the glass cools).

Press the tape firmly over the seam or gap. Overlay two strips of tape, if required to span a gap. This should give a few weeks of protection, at most.

Hope this helps.

Yours faithfully,

Spook

Good morning Spook,

I am reluctantly coming around to accepting the inevitable. I was up to see my windshield man yesterday and he suggested having the surround sandblasted before taking out the glass.

But the bodyman said that it would be a waste of time, that the windshield would have to come out first and that I would be facing a charge of more than a thousand dollars to weld in new metal where the worst rust patches are located. There is one that is above the windshield on the passenger side, just about midpoint between the centre of the car and the A pillar. He pointed out a hole there that is probably allowing water to enter. There are three of these areas, none of which is as bad as this particular one however. Upholstery will have to be moved away from the area to allow for welding to happen. I am also wondering about the SRS sensors when one is messing around with this area.

So I have to decide whether to continue or to button everything up, take my losses and sell. I always lean to repairing but maybe I should just opt out.

But it does really go against the grain. I am not worrying about cosmetics--the paint is generally not so hot and a few primer patches are not about to make things a lot worse. . . still, it is worth about a thousand to twelve hundred on the open market here. Not much of a return.

Will get back to you when I have made a decision. As always, thanks for your input.

Dear muskox37,

Hope you're well. I'd suggest you find another auto glass specialist. It is wholly wrong to suggest that rust at the very edge of the windshield can be cured without removing the windshield.

Before welding, the negative battery cable clamp should be removed from the negative battery terminal. Further, the ECU should be disconnected from its harness. The SRS sensor is under the driver's seat, affixed to the floor pan. It might be a good idea to disconnect the sensor from its harness.

Welding at windshield's top edge requires protecting the front edge of the headliner. Removing a headliner - especially from a sedan - is a non-trivial task.

Hope this helps.

Yours faithfully,

Spook

My windshield expert was only saying that if I were to have the area sandblasted that it would be better to have it done with the windshield in place so that sand would not get everywhere in the interior of the car.

I had a look around about dropping the headliner and from what I could see the main issue is removing the headliner from the car without damaging it as it is taken out the door. I would probably be able to just drop it down and get the welding done and then replace it without removing it from the car.

But, if I had the windshield out it would be relatively easy to pull the headliner out that way so I could have a look at it. Just musing about possibilities here. Ipd has a bit of an instruction guide on removal and installation.

It is a helluva distraction from my other cars however and they have needs as well. Still, I won't be needing this car till next winter. I will be driving the 240 this summer.

Thanks again for your advice.

Dear muskox37,

Hope you're well. Sandblasting is not needed to remove rust from relatively flat sheet metal.Sand paper - or an air-driven wire brush - will work just fine. Sandblasting is needed, to remove paint/rust from intricately carved/molded items, that have lots of nooks and crannies, into which sandpaper or a wire brush simply cannot go.

Once the windshield has been removed, a plastic sheet should be taped securely around the opening, to exclude dust, paint mist, etc., from the car's interior. The body shop will know exactly what to do.

To remove a headliner without dirtying it: (a) wear gloves and (b) buy a cheap King size bed sheet. As you lower the headliner from its position, wrap the sheet around the headliner. Once the headliner is completely wrapped in the bed sheet, use an office stapler to turn the sheet into an envelope, by stapling shut the open edges of the sheet. Put staples every 4" or so. In this way, the headliner can be handled and stored with less risk of fingerprints, etc.

This wrapping should also suffice if you want to lower the headliner out of the way of the work area. If welding is to be done, you might want to use a large lightweight wool blanket, rather than a bed sheet. Wool is inherently fire-resistant.

Hope this helps.

Yours faithfully,

Spook

Good morning Spook,
I am thinking that I could get the windshield removed, bring the car back into the garage, remove the headliner and bring it out through the windshield cavity. I would take the precautions you have just outlined to prevent it getting fingermarks, etc., on it and it would be much simpler to remove and replace it with the windshield out. From what I have read it is difficult to remove the headliner in large part because of the problem of getting it through one of the doors without bending or damaging it in some way. After the welding and bodywork is complete I could then button up the inside before having the windshield reinstalled. I think I am seeing a way through this problem.

Thanks again Spook.

I took a pretty good look at the scene behind the ECU and could not see a vent anywhere. Additionally everything looked sound and clean. If a vent had been leaking there I think there would have been some evidence of that in the form of rust or streaking. I have decided to put some of it back together for the time being and then I will try leaving it out in the rain, driving in the rain, etc., to see if I can get some water trails. It probably is the windshield that is the culprit.

I am keeping the soggy matting and carpet and the kick panel out for now so that I can check for water easily.

Thanks for setting my mind at ease about the ECU however. If I do have to take it out I at least know that it can simply be plugged back in and that nothing has to be 'reset'.

I believe I have a leaking windshield too. What I do to slow the dripping rain water down is to park it up hill. Yesterday I was out with my Volvo and parked in the rain pointing down hill slightly with passenger side also canted slightly down and the drips were steadily coming in. On the driver side theres a drip that hits the steering wheel and passenger side drips hit the door.
The windshield is newish but I don't think the installers did a very good job since it's about the last thing I can say that is causing the leaks.

GothM

I had the windshield on my 240 replaced locally and got to know the installer fairly well. I will go to see him today to see if he can offer some advice on how to stop the leaking.

I saw an item on windshield installation and apparently if the installer uses butyl instead of the proper sealant [urethane I think is the correct adhesive], it could leave the driver and passengers at risk of the windshield popping out in event of a crash.

On my car the only evident rust on it is around the windshield. Bubbly patches are evident on the pillars and at the top of the windshield surround. The snap-in seal covers are also rusty and peeling.

Good morning Spook,

I now have the engine control module exposed. The kick panel came off just as you described the process and I have also removed the panel that is affixed to the bottom of the dashboard. I tried to pull out the carpet but it is still trapped under the left hand seat runner and under the centre console. I will have a look at that tomorrow.

Regarding the radio security code. I have a Pioneer aftermarket radio/CD player in this car. I will take off the negative battery cable regardless but will it affect anything else if I don't know the radio security code. There is some information on the rear side window about the radio which I will look at tomorrow. I do not have a code scanner yet but will I require this if I disconnect the ECU. I might have to if I want to get to the vent panel described by amarin in his last post.

Thanks again for your input.

Thanks again Spook.

I do not want to even touch the engine control panel. I am only trying to resolve the problem of the wet floor and would rather not get into the technicalities of the control panel removal.

Once I get the kick panel out I will try some more water dousing on the outside to see if I can get any dripping happening. Then I will try to trace the drip.

I am very aware of the problems of aging plastic. That is why I try to get a good perspective of where clips are, etc., before trying to remove plastic stuff.

I will reread your earlier post about possible entry points for water. And I will look at what the other contributors have added as well.

Much appreciated.

Another possibility is the fan motor air inlet under the cowling. The screen in the middle of the cowling falls down, debris like leaves etc. accumulates and plugs the drain holes on both sides, water can't escape and overflows through the fan intake and into the area you mention. If your screen is partially or totally down, it's worth attending to it and checking those drains for obstructions.