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So, after many months...and replacing several parts unnecessarily lol....my local mechanic did some diagnostics and discovered which was the part in my 1990 240 wagon that was keeping it from producing a spark and starting/running....
The Jetronic ECU......
Bosch 0-280-000-561
So.......
Looking for a *DIRT* cheap used one......(wife is looking for $100 or less)
Anyone have a known good one laying around?
--
1990 Volvo 240 DL Wagon 400,000+ miles (currently comatose)
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ok, i'll ask the obvious-no spark and it needs the fuel ecu? would love to know why.
btw, I have a 951, also. I used to use it all the time to diagnose no starts when the fuel pump relay wouldn't come on. thanks, chuck.
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As I understand it.....
the Crankshaft Position sensor sends a signal to the Jetronic ECU, which interprets the signal.....then sends a signal to the Ignition Control Module, which tells the coil to generate a spark.
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1990 Volvo 240 DL Wagon 400,000+ miles (currently comatose)
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do the injectors pulse? no pulse, no injectors=crank sensor.
no injectors and HAS spark=ecu and/or relay.
injectors DO pulse and no spark=ignition module-most likely. ignition ecu is possible but VERY unlikely. this ASSUMES we are looking for spark at the coil and not the plugs. spark at the coil and no spark at the plugs is cap, rotor and/or wires.
given the condition of the fuel ecu, a new one may be necessary, but it WILL NOT cause a no spark condition.
it also sounds like you need a new mechanic. good luck, chuck.
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From the original thread regarding this issue........
====================================================
my 1990 240 DL Wagon won't start. As a result, she's been sitting since March (when my registration expired)
initial issue: No Spark coming from the coil *to* the distributor.
I had already started a tune-up when I discovered this issue, so the parts I have replaced so far are thus:
Plugs
Plug wires
Distrib Cap
Rotor
I then installed a new coil (thinking that possibly the issue was the original coil)
Also installed new crankshaft position sensor. (what a pain *THAT* was!)
still no joy.
I installed a brand new Ignition Control Module....
Still no start. She *CRANKS* like you wouldn't believe.
Timing is good. (removed distributor cap and had my son crank the engine. Rotor turns as expected)
No Hall Effect Sensor to replace (hence the Crank position sensor).
Continuity test (via multimeter) shows that the 25A fuse next to the coil is good, as is the fuse holder.
===========================================
At this point, the 240 mechanic at the *only* Volvo dealership in Vermont is confused as hell. His words "I'm going to have to do some research, David. you already replaced everything I can think of that it might be!"
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1990 Volvo 240 DL Wagon 400,000+ miles (currently comatose)
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Doesn't mean its good. Bad CPS sensors happen, even right out of the box new!
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I agree. But all of the new parts *tested* good. (even the old coil)
--
1990 Volvo 240 DL Wagon 400,000+ miles (currently comatose)
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I would like to step in again and ask a question that I had for Art earlier.
I will try restating it better. What I should have asked is have you ever fired up the coil manually. You know by wiring the coil to the battery and then breaking the ground on the primary windings the same way points use to do it. Wiring it up and doing that will test the coil plus the secondary winding side. That leaves the other two items to do the same thing.
I believe that is what the ignition stage amplifiers job is as it's the middle man that has the circuit breaking job. That's the one behind the battery. It does this on command from the ICU module that Art has shown us uncovered. It's like a relay that can fail but is replaceable outside the ICU module. Which was kinda nice, if they were pretty sure it might be a problem child, heat sink and all!
His suggestion about connections is right on!
One needs power in, to get power out.
I would make sure that all three are capable of getting their due!
The ICU, the stage amplifier, and the ignition coil. Check all the terminals that need B+ To operate on diagrams. Whether is a trigger signal or raw power just keep working backwards from the components through switches, connectors and fuse blocks to see where it picks up or was dropped out.
If their ok, then trace for their grounds for power to go forward back home to the battery.
When something involving several components at once I find most of the time it is a grounding issue.
It's all a fifty-fifty issue, electrically and grounds are usually on the cheapest side of a circuit in most cases. It used to be bad points or condenser! Just an humble opinion but connections rank right in there!
Like Art's meaning to me was, dig in and study the "neighborhood" just a bit. Then, one component (neighbor) will snitch on the other eventually. Everyone wants to get back to smoking but the matches went missing. ~(:-)-
Phil
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Hi Art,
Ah, I should have know you would also have pictures to help with the show tell program you offer!
I guess I have failed to see that one.
Good job, I might add!
I agree the CPS seems to have more failures than the older hall effect sensors. One of your other posts had a diagram on how to troubleshoot those. It is really handy for me since I have three cars with HES's.
I think that is what got me thinking about the CPS communicating with both boxes or just to the ICU and then it communicating with the ECU. There must be a break down along those wire/lines "if" the boxes are good and usually are!
That brings me to thinks about the label on his ECU though.
I thought they were white as my car originally had a white 561in it. I changed it to a 931-? out of suspicions.
I now think it was either the CPS, F/S relay or bad main pump power connector at the pump causing a no start "once" many years ago.
Is the one shown, in his first post, a pink one? It looks red on my screen! I am puzzled.
I thought by these years of cars they are all were white labeled 561's or a 931/933? I think the 30's covered EGR's and the 951 is for non-EGR cars?
Just wondered if you noticed that along with the rust from the leak you mentioned.
I am not very well informed on various changes from state to state or countries, as you can tell!
And by the way, good afternoon to you too!
Phil
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Phil, my opinion is the pink label -561 (or -556 if you are left coast EGR) was used until the fuel rail with the Schrader tap and no cold start valve appeared in '92. Then the fuel ECU for a 240 was the -951 or EGR -933, both sporting white labels.
As a repair option (for the fuel pump relay ground failure) the -561 appeared about that same time making use of the custom hybrid microcircuit used in the -951/-933 but still providing support for the 5th injector used 89-91.
If interested in the difference between pink and white label fuel ECUs, check this old thread or do a search.
ttp://www.brickboard.com/RWD/volvo/990665/220/240/260/280/will_561_ecu_work_place_951.html
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
A dyslexic man walks into a bra.
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At this point, the 240 mechanic at the *only* Volvo dealership in Vermont is confused as hell. His words "I'm going to have to do some research, David. you already replaced everything I can think of that it might be!"
Question: Did your 240 mechanic work on it, or was this a conversation you had?
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
The man who fell into an upholstery machine is fully recovered.
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Conversation on the phone.
Al Martin Volvo, Shelburne, VT
I have no way to get my 240 *to* the dealership....so I'm trying to repair what I *can* without having to shell out money I just pain don't have just for a tow truck.
And the mechanic *here* (generic shop) apparently couldn't *FIND* a Volvo with both hands and a flashlight
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1990 Volvo 240 DL Wagon 400,000+ miles (currently comatose)
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"initial issue: No Spark coming from the coil *to* the distributor."
According to Porkface, as I interpreted it, that would indicate the Ignition Control Unit.
"I installed a brand new Ignition Control Module.... Still no start."
A new ICU should have solved the problem.
Is there power to the coil? I think you can run a wire directly from the battery to the coil. Not sure with all the electronics involved.
--
1980 245 Canadian B21A with SU carb, M46 trans, 3:31 dif, in Brampton, Ont.
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Top Left:
Crankshaft Position Sensor
Bottom Left:
Ignition Control Module / Power Stage
Right side:
Not a clue, but looks like the inner workings of the Jetronic Computer...
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1990 Volvo 240 DL Wagon 400,000+ miles (currently comatose)
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I was getting the idea that might be the source of mistaken communication. The innards on the right go inside this - the ignition control module (ICU - and item 214 in Volvo's drawing) which is separate from the Jetronic fuel computer. You'll find it above the passenger's toes - where the fuel relay was originally clipped. It looks like this with its cover on.
But I've not heard one verifiable case where that unit has been the cause of a problem. So reliable, most folks aren't even aware of its part in the spark game.
Nonetheless, the real cause of 80% of what ails our spark making system is not replaceable components like coils, power stages, and CPS's, but the wires and connections that tie it all together. The connections especially.
And part swapping won't find those faulty connections, or sometimes the act of swapping cleans one up and makes you believe the swap proved the old part was the problem. They need to be traced.
That's why I didn't follow you about the 240 mechanic being stumped, as I would be pretty certain, if she's made any part of her living on 240's she knows how to trace any problem with spark in 30 minutes to an hour max. Your mechanic needs to get her own eyes, hands, and perhaps test equipment on your car.
What is obvious to me (as I've pointed out twice in this thread) is... you have a leak. Windshield pinchweld, firewall seal, clogged drains - whatever - the water follows the wires and makes for faulty connections, and if it gets inside expensive computers, those faulty connections are expensive items.
We, here on the internet, are the ones most able to troubleshoot by distance. So we have to be sure we are using the language of these things -- like ignition control module -- in the same way.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
Every calendar's days are numbered.
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the Crankshaft Position sensor sends a signal to the Ignition Control Module, which interprets the signal.....then sends a signal to the Ignition Amplifier, which tells the coil to generate a spark. You can have spark with the fuel ECU (the Jetronic thingie) sitting on the back seat.
Make sure you get that leak fixed first :-)
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Anybody who doesn't know what soap tastes like never washed a dog.
-Franklin P. Jones
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Hi Art, I liked your response on you getting certified to become a mechanic! (:-)
I don't know but I think they "all" are both shaking hands and spitting at each other, from the call of the CPS!
My bet is on the one with the most spit will be the slimy culprit.
I prefer to blame the ECU's until the very end too!
Getting spark has always been one of the first two "hurdles" to clear, except ones throat, to start an engine. (:-)
Is there a way to trigger the ICU to throw a pulse from the plug to the old hall sensor era cars?
As far as that goes, how about to that switching amplifier, of a middle man, going to the coil?
There should be better troubleshooting techniques than the remove and replace, (R&R), frustration method.
Phil
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"There should be better troubleshooting techniques than the remove and replace, (R&R), frustration method. "
There are. Understand the system. Use the documentation. Stop guessing.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
A dog teaches a boy fidelity, perseverance, and to turn around three times before lying down. -Robert Benchley
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The 561 is a known bad one, especially pink label; replace with a later one if possible, a non-T one.
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I've got one. Is $75 including postage "dirt cheap" enough? I know it is a good one -- the lady blowed up the motor real good at 70mph on the Long Island Expressway - ran it out of oil. It came from an '89 740GL. Contact me off the BB----fastforwardphoto(AT)yahoo(DOT)com----or call six-three-one-968-8933 before 10pm EST. -- Dave
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May be rather obvious, but be sure to fix the leak before you replace the control unit.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
A bank is a place that will lend you money, if you can prove that you don’t need it.
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i have a couple of good 951's around. these were the best of all of them used on 93's and retrofit backwards with no issues.
trichard@mass.rr.com
near greenfield mass
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