Hi All,

My 86 240 wagon has 210,00k and a rebuilt clutch @ 90k.

A few days ago I starting having trouble shifting into R, 1st & 2nd. A couple days later I started hearing a loud knocking when depressing the clutch. Releasing it and the noise disappeared.

My mechanic said clutch is a bit worn, but fine and that the crankshaft had 1/2" play and that needed I to replace the engine.

Do I have other options? Is it cost effective to check thrust washers/bearings first? Would I have had more warning?

Trying to decide whether to spend 1,800$ for a new engine or get a new car.

Thanks.

I am not speaking from personal experience here, but another very knowledgeable mechanic shared this info with me several years ago. He mentioned that it is not uncommon to be mid-way through a clutch change on the early version of the B230 engine (1985-1987) and to be levering/prying the flywheel free of the crankshaft when suddenly you hear a double "klink" as the two thrust washer shims fall off the crankshaft and down into the bottom of the oil pan. He mentioned this to me since he noticed that I was driving a '87 240 myself. This issue is corrected in the 1988-1992 K-block version of the B230, and also as well for the 1993-1995 L-block due to a redesign of the crankshaft so that it has a real captive thrust bearing rather than a pair of semi-circle shims.

If you've ever dismantled an '85-'87 B230, you'll know exactly what they look like and why it was a good idea to change the design. It was the only weak link in the engine as far as I'm concerned, at least for non-turbo applications.

Regarding your situation, if the end-play appeared over time, you may have worn through the thrust shims, but that's a bit unlikely. I've done a teardown on a B230F from a 1987 240 with a M47 that had around 380,000 miles on it, and the thrust bearings were in pretty good shape, even after the car was run low on oil by the previous owner (which caused massive amounts of piston wear and crank bearing wear).

I'd wager a bet that you have a pair of thrust shims sitting in the bottom of your oil pan. It might be worth getting a replacement set just to be sure, then lifting the engine up about a foot in the engine bay, removing the oil pan, and replacing the thrust shims. Save the $1,800 operation for an engine that needs it, yours is probably fine and can be resurrected for a lot less.

Of note, the oil seals on the camshaft, intermediate shaft, and the crankshaft can all be installed up to 7 to 10mm deeper to fix an issue where a bearing surface scarred a rotating assembly. This design feature of the engine also allows the bearing to have a lot of work room if the shaft should get play to it. Thus they'll keep the oil inside in some seriously adverse situations. Also, it doesn't take much wear on the rod bearings to allow for the fore-aft 1/2" of end play that you're experiencing. While the engine may have some significant wear, I bet she's good for another 1/4 million miles yet if you put a set of thrust shims in place.

God bless and have a great day,
Fitz Fitzgerald.

1990 245 w 130,000 miles in Brass castle Junkyard,Warren County,NJ chk it out!!

Only if you are really happy with the rest of the car should you consider replacing the engine. The cost of replacing the engine (with a shop doing the work) will be about what you would pay for a nice 240 with a strong drivetrain. You could always sell your 240 for a project car, as many many people want a solid shell to modify. The transmission would even make the car quite desirable, since manuals are less common.

If you decide to go that route, www.turbobricks.com is a good place to advertise. It is right up their alley, as somebody will probably rip out the engine anyway.

If you ARE really happy with the rest of the car (rust free, good paint, good suspension, etc) then consider that a nice, clean 240 with no major defects will cost between $2000 and $4000. The investment of a new engine might be worth it.

why not get a later year,,used engine???

Well, many thanks to everyone who posted.

I took the car in to another mechanic in town and the car does indeed need a new engine. These guys have a lot of years on old volvos and a great rep. They've never seen anything like it. At least 3/8" endplay on the crankshaft.

She's garaged, for now, until I figure out next steps.

I would have to agree with other posters, that such an excessive amount of end play would surely be catastrophic to the engine. There may be some, it may really be the case, but my god, that's a lot.

Please have the mechanics or whoever verify that this is NOT simply being observed at the front pulley/ harmonic balancer. These have a rubber layer, they CAN and DO separate hub from pulley sheaves, and it will move in-out and all around.

If it's being measured at the flywheel, well, it's real movement, but again I can't conceive how it can be so bad.

Options if in fact it's so bad:

New main bearings. Drop oil pan, support engine in car, remove crank pulley, timing cover, front seals, and replace all mains - obviously the thrust bearing is wiped out and of course all the seals will be damaged.

New (junkyard) engine. They're cheap, as few Volvos are junked for a bad motor. It's a fair amount of labor to replace, of course, but I'd say almost any shop can do it in a day. With luck, a parts car can donate one for under $200. I've done the work, and it's not 1 day in my driveway, but I don't have professional equipment. For modern cars, the Volvo is one of the easiest to replace an engine.

Find a better car. I like to keep every one I can on the road. But if the car is in rough shape, you may be better off locating one with less wrong with it. They're 20+ years old, they rust, stuff wears out. I hope yours is worth saving, but consider that it might be a better donor if floors and rockers are starting to rust out- for your own safety.

Good luck with it!
--Rob
--
89 244GL Turbo // 92 244 M47 \\ 90 745T // 76 242 Convertible

Sorry to hear that. If you do decide to keep the car get a "K" engine or later. It's probably too much money to spend on a car that old though. It might be time to move on.
Good luck with whatever course you choose.

wow. Sure would like to see pics (or better, video) of the inside with the pan removed...

--
-Matt I ♥ my ♂

ME TOO!!!!!

Like the Old Pepsodent commercials in wondering where the yellow went?
Where could have three eights of an inch of thrust spacing material or even journal material from the block could have gone!
Who's been changing oil all this time? Temporary hires from a 10 minute Lube place!

Like one poster had said, that is a lot of time standing on the clutch pedal. He said he has seen that much play before...I Got to give him, his due, here on the board!

The crankshaft journals or connecting rods journals on the crank are not that much extra wide.

All the lateral movement would have to be made up on the wrist pins. The distance that is allowed between the hubs under the piston domes I can fear are not that much either.

Its has been a long time since I have held a connecting rod assembly to recall three eights of an inch side slop on a wrist pin!
This started after a clutch change and how many miles?

I agree we need a You Tube play back of this thing running and then the tear off of the engine pan!
Title is to be "believe it or not".

Phil

i remember well the night we put that one together.

http://videnskab.dk/krop-sundhed/ti-myter-om-alkohol-branderten

""""210,00k and a rebuilt clutch @ 90k.""""


What is a rebuilt clutch?

if you just recently began to have trouble shifting, and the "rebuilt clutch" has 120K on it, and the noise comes and goes when you depress the clutch. Then you need a "new" clutch....because you've got some parts of the clutch that have been in service for 210K miles. This assumes that a "rebuilt clutch" means that only the clutch disc was replaced at 90K.

Why your mechanic suggested an engine replacement...THAT ALONE would make me want to get at least another if not two "second opinions". If not another Mechanic altogether


just my 2 cents.

Someone claiming to be CB said--" This assumes that a "rebuilt clutch" means that only the clutch disc was replaced at 90K.

Why your mechanic suggested an engine replacement...THAT ALONE would make me want to get at least another if not two "second opinions". If not another Mechanic altogether"
#1--A "rebuilt" clutch does not mean that just the disc was replaced. Traditionally pressure plates were rebuilt for cost saving. I think that was more prevalent with old style coil spring clutches rather than the diaphragm preassure plates Volvo has used for years now. I'm not sure what the term means in this case. Local clutch builders work with "modular" components now--various splined center sections are riveted to the clutch face material of your choice. For instance - I had a clutch prepared for my VolvOldsmobile 215 V8 w/Camaro T5 gearbox. The clutch for the 1963 Olds 215 was actually sourced from Ford with Ford's 2+2+2 flywheel bolt pattern and a 9 inch disc with a 10 spline center section. I needed the original style pressure plate but the Camaro box has a 26 spline shaft. Local builder Falcon set me up with all the parts including the fork I didn't have.
#2--as for the OP crankshaft problem--I think folks are concentrating too much on the 1/2 inch figure. I'm sure the mechanic did not bother to set up a dial indicator to measure exact end play (just as I did not)-- he (or she) was probably just as shocked at the excessive end play he saw as I was when looking at such a situation. Whether the end play was actually 1/2 inch--3/8 inch or a 1/4 inch what was there was way too much and rather than diss the mechanic he should be thanked for not suggesting wasting time and money trying to fix something that can't be fixed (economically). Of course the OP should check it himself - or get a 2nd opinion but his situation is not unheard of--or to be doubted. -- Dave

with that much front to back play in the crankshaft besides massive oil leaks from front and rear crank seals loosening to blowing out outright your timing belt will wander hugely on the sprockets and get shredded if not come off.

you may well have crank play but 1/2" stretches believability.

get a second opinion before committing to action

Seems suspicious to me. 1/2" of play on the crank? Seems like you would have an enormous leak from the front and rear seals, not to mention numerous other problems. In fact, with that much play, I am surprised that the engine runs properly. I can also tell you from personal experience that while the early B230F is reputed to have a weak bottom end, I have driven three '86-'88 240s beyond the 300,000 mile mark with no engine work.

I would take the car to another mechanic. I bet the problem is related to the clutch assembly.

Oh I feel so vindicated! Thanks guys and any gals!

I have the same cars with as many or more miles and all are manual shifters!

Phil

A 1/2 inch of play... Come on, the engine has wrist pins and connecting rods not swivel joints!
It is impossible for the crankshaft to move that far out of alignment with the cylinder bores!

He must have meant something else about the clutch assembly.

Phil

He put in a new clutch and the noise got worse.

So maybe he lied or "guessed" about the endplay but either way, I have a loud knocking and was looking for a little advice to understand my options before getting a second opinion.

Please don't respond unless you can help.

Thanks.

Well if you push the clutch in, the crank should move forward if I understand this game.

So if you let the clutch out, its not suppose to be pushing on the crankshaft and the clutch is in there just for the ride! The knock goes away.

If you get under the car and place a block of under the to fill a gap between the frame and the front pulley you should be able to literally shove that thing back forth with a pry bar! Did he show you that little maneuver? I wonder how the timing belt loves something like that going on?
A half inch of movement something is going to rubbing something else somewhere.

I sure would like to know how the seals have been hanging onto those front and rear crankshaft diameters while they have been slipping and sliding without leaking?

All of that movement must be hell keeping the clutch cable adjusted or the V belts lined up?

A 120,000 on a "rebuilt" clutch does not sound like abuse towards the engine to me but it just might be that a spring in the disc is cocked in its pocket or are a finger in the pressure plate assembly has a fatigue problem. Your foot activates the noise and the wear of clutch components are most likely a problem at this mileage.
I bet, clutches are changed out more often than engines during the life of a cars, motorcycle, tractors and big trucks!

I am sorry if you do not think using some reasoning against some "guessing" from a mechanic (that sees more dollars, daily, from the more prestigious car owners) is not helping?

Getting a second opinion, especially when shopping for $85/hr.+ hands with wrenches, is always advised. An absolute necessity with a low budget or if a female owner is involved.
You are asking for information/knowledge which IS your best weapon or equalizer no matter what car you have!

Phil

Thanks Phil!

I appreciate all the help here. I am getting a second opinion this week, especially considering they put in a new clutch and it made the problem worse.

Clutch cable is tight and clutch is a bit spongey but ok.

The reason I reacted to your original post is because I was only providing the info given to me by my mechanic. I was skeptical too and they didn't really provide any solid info or a detailed estimate, so I was just trying to understand my options.

Thanks for posting back.
It really helps those who want to help to stay interested in the puzzle presented.

I did not catch that you had the clutch changed.
I thought you were still running it from 90,000 miles to the present 210,000 miles.

That was very reasonable wear but they can go farther if there is only one or two kind drivers.

Knowing this does raise an eyebrow and that story makes it double scary to have them advising you to get rid of the car.
I am afraid they took a short cut on something or got bad/wrong parts from a supplier.
In any case someone besides you eats the labor to crack it open.

Feeling spongy might be a clue that something is not aligned correctly or is worn and was not replaced as a full and complete replacement. Did you pay for that?
Most people do or at least are regularly led in that direction because it is in the category of a major repair.
Can we ask what you paid for said work? It might shed light one way or another to what happened.
Was this a dealer or an independent shop. I hope it was not a local or distant service/gas station.

Like I say, we like puzzles and those with lots of pieces are even more entertaining for us!

Shake the board, we are here for ya!

Phil

Thankfully, I didn't pay for them to put the new clutch in and it was an independent shop. I have been going to them for over a year and they've done some great band-aid work on the body.

They do, however, seem to be a bit lazy. They sometimes "don't get around to" some of the work I've requested and don't ever provide me with a list of "fixes" when they have the car for a tune-up. All of my other mechanics have been very honest and have taken really great care of me - keeping on top of all the little things.

The engine replacement quote was reasonable - 1,800$ but I asked for a detailed estimate and didn't get one. It felt like they didn't bother to really try and figure out what was going on.

Admittedly, I'm hard on the clutch, but it doesn't make sense that the clutch would be ok but that the crankshaft would be shot. I am also suspicious that it happened all of the sudden.

I have another local shop in mind and will keep you posted.

The early B230 engines had a thrust washer that was only 180 degrees in the center main bearing. I think it was in the block half of the main bearing. They wear out quickly and literally disintegrate. The two semi circular bearings stacked account for only about 3/16 of inch, which means the play you have is from wear in the block and the crank. You can't just install a couple of new thrust washers as the block is messed up.
So maybe advising you that you need a new block isn't helping. It is a fact though.
B230's were a bad engine right out of the gate and the early ones are the worst. I guess that's not helping either.

Very helpful, thanks.

What with all these folks offering their anecdotal experience, and the fact remaining that some B230 do wipe out their thrust washers regardless, you'd do well to check the crankshaft yourself. Here's how.
When you push on the clutch pedal the force needed to deflect the diaphragm spring is taken by the flywheel, and that shoves the crank forward. With the pedal released the crank can be levered back.
So get someone to push the clutch pedal down while you watch the front crank pulley. Have a lever ready, maybe you can fit something against the sway bar or somewhere, and then lever the pulley back when the clutch pedal is released. You'll see the play. And if it's visible - it's too much.
I've seen them so bad the flex plate in auto trans cars contacts the back of the block.
If you don't see play on the crank great. It's not worth all the advice of others. Just check it yourself and then you'll know.

Thanks I guess I did not boil it down so well as you have.

I think the subject has been well baked by now.

Where is the poster? Be nice to have feed back to know what was wrong with the car for our reference.

Phil

Phil said--"A 1/2 inch of play... Come on, the engine has wrist pins and connecting rods not swivel joints!
It is impossible for the crankshaft to move that far out of alignment with the cylinder bores!

He must have meant something else about the clutch assembly."
I'm here to tell you--it's entirely possible. Granted--a half inch is a lot--but if I had to describe the end play in an '89 740 my son's friend tried to sell me I would call it at 3/8ths inch. I didn't want to have anything to do with it- the motor and car were scrap candidates. That was the first time I'd seen anything quite like that- let alone in a Volvo 4 cylinder. What really puzzled me was that the car had an auto transmission. I could see the thrust bearings wear if it had been a stick shift with a driver in the habit of holding the clutch in at lights. I don't recall specifically but there was mention of this occurring in a BB post just recently.
As for what to do - dropping the pan and replacing the main bearing that incorporates the thrust function will buy you some time - but ultimately not a long term solution. Replacing the motor with a used unit would be the way to go - $1800 is a bit steep but if it includes new seals, timing belt, V belts, etc. - it may make more sense than having to shop for and buy a replacement car. -- Dave