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Well,
the local Volvo shop I go to has spent many hours trying to find and fix the cause of the “fast idle”. The owner himself spent hours tracing down wires and testing various sensors. I have to say this-they have in essence ‘donated’ much of their time in pursuit of this issue. They kept the wagon twice, 2 days at a time, and gave me a free loaner. They did replace a sensor and the ignition sensor computer thing-which I paid for and a small amount of labor.
Today after having the wagon the 2nd time for 2 days they are still somewhat stumped BUT the issue has become better, not perfect. The high idle issue seems to have minimized after the owner took his time and made adjustments in accordance with the installing of certain sensors .
There is one “culprit” that may have an answer,if fixed; problem is, it would mean a great deal of $$$ for our pocket book, like about $800. The sensor I think its called the nox thing, may be picking up something from the back end of the crankshaft. As most any car gets older it gets a bit “looser”; parts normally wear,and the worn bearings on the crankshaft way be ending a signal to the sensor that is interpreted incorrectly and the sensor sends out a signal read from that vibration and thus the fast idle pervades. The fix (maybe-?) is to replace the bearings, an $800 job parts and labor job as you have to drop the pan and get at the underside of the motor.
Since the wagon is running relatively well, we have decided not to lay out that $$ and just drive it easy and hope for the best. The wagon otherwise really is in excellent condition inside and out. With caution we might be able to get a few more years out of it. I will say the owner of the shop himself put in many hours and charged us nothing today, saying as how he couldn’t find and fix the issue, tho he did, in the total of the 4 days he had it replace some things. He spent many hours tracing circuits and wires with meters and just couldn’t find and fix the idle altho the fast idle has subsided somewhat.
He asks for no $$ for the hours of labor he put in today, but we will go back next week and see to it his efforts are “rewarded“. Just doesn’t feel right to walk off with out doing something for his labor. I had a loner car from him and a couple times I drove there and his head was either under the dash or dug down into the various parts of the engine. .
I've called once in awhile and the lady at the phone said he would call me back as sometimes when I called he was fast at it trying to find and fix things in our wagon. I tried not to bug him too much just leave him alone much as I could to let him carry on . All in all we feel he has done what he could, and it's our decision to call it quits. (Probably should have quit many $$$ ago!)
I do thank ALL the Brickboarders for suggestions of which many I did copy-paste and took them to the mechanic/owner. I even copied Arts' pictures and the owner looked at them and said it made great sense to him which he did use to check it out. The 'bearing' thing is just too hefty a price for our pocketbook.
SO, thanks again everyone. I hope sometimes I can offer a useful suggestion or two to other 'BBers .
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posted by
someone claiming to be
on
Wed Dec 31 18:00 CST 1969 [ RELATED]
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OK just read it all and to my surprise NOBODY has reported back that the idle Air Control Valve was checked to see if it's rest position at normal temps was within spec or anywhere near spec. IIRC it shouild be about 0.04" or 1 mm.
Just saying it 'works' when called on by the ICU/ECU to regulate idle isn't enough.
The base idle is set to regulate around a IAC valve position that is governed by a spring and bi-metallic element. This position fluctuates with age, and it opens wider when old, letting more air through the bypass loop.
The ICU can regulate around an old IAC to a point, but if the initial position is too wide open, the idle will surge at first then the ICU will control it down, and compensate but the spring will over compensate and raise the idle again. This may go on until there's a default reached where the control ceases.
The initial spring position of the IAC valve can be adjusted by clearing out the potting on the external adjustment screw, and the valve returned back to the spec position, but it CANNOT compesnsate for the error from the temperature dependant bi-metqalic element being worn, and will give erroneous position as temperatures change, like from cold start to warm-up, and as the IAC circuit struggles to recover the correct idle the speed will fluctuate or stay high.
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posted by
someone claiming to be
on
Wed Dec 31 18:00 CST 1969 [ RELATED]
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I'm not familiar with the intricacies of IAC valve operation, but Art did write, "To oversimplify it, the idle speed regulation occurs in a feedback loop. The RPM signal from the crank sensor is passed by the ICU to the ECU which uses it to control the "on time" or duty cycle to the spring-loaded idle valve...".
Art suggests that using a dwell meter would help find the problem.
Myself, I thought that IAC valve operation was just an open/close operation. Didn't think that voltage to it was being varied to adjust the size of the opening. (Carburetted systems are much simpler.)
--
1980 245 Canadian B21A with SU carb but electronic ignition and M46 trans in Brampton, Ont.
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posted by
someone claiming to be
on
Wed Dec 31 18:00 CST 1969 [ RELATED]
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Art's description is correct, and the ICU will servo the valve for a larger or smaller opening depending on the rpm sensor feedback. If the feedback adjusted amount is sent to the valve as a voltage, the older valve with larger opening will cause a high idle and/or surge.
Usually replacing the valve fixes it, but an old valve and new valve can servo the same amount, will measure the same dqwell as if the ICU is working correctly, but from a different reference, which is the static opening size. If you have a Bently's or Greeenbook there's a good test and spec for the gap.
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posted by
someone claiming to be
on
Wed Dec 31 18:00 CST 1969 [ RELATED]
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posted by
someone claiming to be
on
Wed Dec 31 18:00 CST 1969 [ RELATED]
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My impression - early in the morning and without searching out or re-reading all your threads, is: If this was in my driveway, I'd try to find out where in the control range the idle valve is.
Let me try to explain, from a theory perspective -- not experience here; I haven't needed to do this, and don't really expect I ever will, unless by some chance someone with your symptoms shows up at my door:
To oversimplify it, the idle speed regulation occurs in a feedback loop. The RPM signal from the crank sensor is passed by the ICU to the ECU which uses it to control the "on time" or duty cycle to the spring-loaded idle valve.
To be effective, the idle valve must be able to pass some air around the throttle plate in all temperature and engine conditions. How much air, is determined by that duty cycle. If it was instructed to pass no air -- fully close itself -- the feedback loop would be at its limit, and useless. Likewise, if it got enough on-signal, it would fully open, and again, break the loop.
My approach to isolating the nature of the problem would be to find out where in that operating range -- between fully closed and fully open -- the idle valve was working. Simply pinching the hose is the quick diagnosis for high idle. If it starts to stall, you know the idle valve is what is keeping it running.
A dwell meter can tell you where in its range it is. The idea is to find out if the air (to create fast idle) is being ordered by the brain or involuntarily provided by another leak. Or is the brain sending the right signal, but the muscle isn't moving...
I would assume your shop has already determined the computer is telling the idle valve to open too far, which means you could stall your car if you pinched the idle bypass hose, and maybe bring the idle down to normal by disconnecting the idle valve's electrical connector. With no signal, the valve is open a "limp home" amount by design.
If the problem were related to a faulty signal from the crank sensor, as would result from any mechanical wear (I would not think loose bearings - but might consider an incorrectly installed flex plate or loose tone ring damaged during a transmission service) that faulty signal would be easily identifiable using a scope on the ICU signal to the ECU (ICU pin 17).
I have to think how many times I've learned things only to remind myself: None of us, including pros, were born knowing this stuff. It is an honest person who can admit that and deduct that learning from the food-on-the-table income stream. You owe them a debt of gratitude for that honesty, nothing more. Repay with your own honesty.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
A Stranger is just a friend you haven't met yet.
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posted by
someone claiming to be
on
Wed Dec 31 18:00 CST 1969 [ RELATED]
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Thanks again Art, seriously.
I am VERY greateful for their efforts. im actually going to copy-paste the comments you made here altho they did tell me they pinched off some hoses and what was supposed to happen was fine. I know they looked at the idle valve and they also know even a brand new thing can he bad, and actually they did just that with one of them .
I had installed a (Bosch) valve thing, kinda barrel shaped, and turns out the shop took it off and could show me what was going on that was not good, so I took it back where I bought it brand new and they gave me another. That parts place also was very good to not argue but simply honored their warranty. The newer one I took back to the shop, they looked at it and said that one looked fine so that was all good.
They did mention the idle plate and something they took off , the throttle body I think, they thoroughly cleaned altho it wasn’t all that ‘bad’ on inspection. New flame trap also. ( I asked for new, they said they could clean the 'old one' so my decision. it was a bit old anyway. )
BTW our ‘89’s timing can not be altered by turning the distributor, seems Volvo decided that wasn’t needed so they made it ‘non-movable/rotateable‘
Anyway I will take your comments to them and the place has ALWAYS taken what I take to them seriously, and they do read and contemplate it , even explain to me things I may not understand directly from the comments. They have NEVER ‘put down’ any of the BBs comments I got and in fact said they could see they were earnest comments made by those who were trying to help. In other words they were respectable about it all. Thanks again.
Oh as far as 'rewarding' the shop-I did a couple times take them fresh donuts from a good donut shop a couple of mornings even tho that semed a pittance' for what they have done for me.
I will see to it the shop owner is more$$so 'rewarded' as Im sure the shop owner did a lot of the work himself as he has to pay his mechanics their wages; so only the owner can 'donate' the time actually.. A'few' $$ for his personal pocket and maybe a bucketful (or 2) of KFC for the crews lunch?
THANK YOU EVERYONE!!!!!!!
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posted by
someone claiming to be
on
Wed Dec 31 18:00 CST 1969 [ RELATED]
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Well, it makes me wonder why someone from this shop should not engage the arcane model specific knowledge amassed by enthusiasts on the internet forums. It would save you the middle-man duty, ferrying comments based on your interpretation of technical details. I happen to know many professionals have learned things from visiting this list. Many have returned the favor and participated, helping us with their experience. Volunteer style.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
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posted by
someone claiming to be
on
Wed Dec 31 18:00 CST 1969 [ RELATED]
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Hey Art,
‘Funny’ you should say that; quite awhile ago when i first mentioned the BB to the owner, he said he had not been aware of the BB. Anyway I explained it to him and he said he will definitely look at it--(the BB forum). Since then whenever I mention the BB OR if i pop in his place he asks if i have been at the BB lately; Seems he does put value on what the BB’rs have to say.
As far as what he may or may not do or offer in the BB I figure that's his business, not mine. My 'business" is only if I get a comment for me about something going on with my car that i think might have value for the mechanic working on my car. Ive said this more than once, I DO appreciate most any offering of help on any thing that might be 'happening' with the Brick.
(As far as me 'ferrying' comment, it doesnt bother me any. Its not like I have millions of other things to do. The only issue about that is I need to be accurate if Im relaying messages so thats why i copy-paste a lot so im not mistaken.)
I wouldn’t be surprised if maybe he might start offering his knowledge. I don’t even know if he does even use a computer at his home other than at work, and I do not know if his mechanics know about they BB, they might, I just didn’t ask.. I do know that my friend/mechanic down in Burbank use to ‘be’ in the BB quite a while back.
I do know my “shade tree” mechanic does not own a computer, at least he said that, and I believe him. He does ask me at times if I got any ‘new’ info about any particular issue on the BB.
I will say i do read other peoples postings in this forum, and if I feel i have something to offer, I will offer it, and hope I might be of some help. Im far from an 'expert" so I dont make a LOT of comments but when I do, it feels good when and if something I offer does have value for someone.
Anywho, thanks again.
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posted by
someone claiming to be
on
Wed Dec 31 18:00 CST 1969 [ RELATED]
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I have no doubt they are treating you fairly by your description (ok, maybe a little doubt), but I also have no doubt that one of three things are happening here:
You are not understanding and passing on what they are explaining to you very well
They are giving you multiple unconnected bits of information and you are piecing them together in an order that makes sense to you but does not actual make sense.
The shop is completely out of ideas but unwilling to admit that they had just thrown parts at it in the past are going to do so again.
Since I always want to give what sounds like an honest shop the benefit of the doubt, lets try to unravel what they might have been talking about.
We all know that they suggested the tone wheel on the flex plate could be bad and it is at the back of the engine and hooked up to the transmission more or less. There is no bearing associated with this part that I can think of. It is almost impossible for this to have an intermittent problem.
There are no sensors on a Volvo 240 that can be adjusted.
There are no adjustments you can make to the computer for the sensors. I forget what year your car is but they can reset the "trim" values back to default by removing power to the the ECU for a few seconds...but that usually makes the car run worse initially and get better over a few miles of driving.
The only sensor that even remotely has to do with NoX is the O2 sensor in the exhaust which even the most expensive are $140-160 with less than a half hour shop labor to replace. Sure the Air Mass Meter, temp sensor and knock sensor all contribute to controlling the levels of of NoX in your exhaust, but only one really measures anything to do with NoX.
Most of all, I beg you stop throwing money at this (which you have already decided to do). With combination of your car's problem, your shop, and your understanding of the issues, this problem is unlikely to ever be resolved no matter how much money you do throw at it. This is not intended as an insult to anyone...just a reality check.
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posted by
someone claiming to be
on
Wed Dec 31 18:00 CST 1969 [ RELATED]
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In reply to the sensor thing-of course they cant adjust the sensor, they did something that goes along with installing a 'new' sensor that when they looked at things after installation needed to be “adjusted” and maybe even my use of “adjusted“ is incorrect. -maybe adjusted isn’t the right term, but there were some things they did that installing a new sensor, computer, whatever, that had to be looked at along with the installations. Wish I could be more clear. I also did copy-paste many suggestions made here and took them to the shop so as that there was no misunderstandings what someone was saying, altho some I related myself and yes maybe I didn’t relate it accurately sometimes.
Since I posted this post, the shop said they were able to actually do something that allowed them to see that “ring” thing that goes around the flywheel and they inspected by turning it and said everything looks fine so they said removing the trans and replacing the bearings, in their opinion, would not be warranted , so unless I insisted they wont do that, and im not insisting. That saved me a lot of $$$ itself IF I was actually thinking of doing that.
They said a bad bearing could make some sort of vibration the nox might pick up. they did NOT say the bearing itself is actually associated with the bearing. They also tested things before installing something such as the amm.(the amm was fine) There was also some sort of ignition computer thing that when tested showed it had issues so they got another one also used -and tested it to be sure and installed that. Doing that has seemed to reduce the idle to a small extent.
As far as the shops reputation, they have been open about 40 years at least and are reputable from everyone ive met that has done business with them. Im not saying they are perfect, far from it, but at least they seem fair, so far. I was also impressed by my friend/mechanic who now works down in Burbank and has known the place and the owner a long time and also gave them good marks. I think its MY “reporting” of whats has gone on that has been 'off' and if ive given a 'bad' impression, Im truly sorry bout that. Anyway thanks again for your response.
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posted by
someone claiming to be
on
Wed Dec 31 18:00 CST 1969 [ RELATED]
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I was going in the direction you were til I realized that the 'nox' sensor is actually the 'knock sensor', and that the current theory is this;
bad bearings lead to vibrations which are triggering the knock sensor, which gives high idle.
Now that's the theory. And I have a friend who has a high performance (over 300 hp) 740, and he has had knock sensor issues, which he pretty much resolved by using an 850 sensor, which apparently has a finer level of tune, or sense.
But in this case, well...
It was good to point out all that you did, re: sensors not being adjustable, etc.
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posted by
someone claiming to be
on
Wed Dec 31 18:00 CST 1969 [ RELATED]
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Can a triggered knock sensor cause high idle? I thought it retarded ignition only. Can it richen the mixture as well? Even if it could, would more fuel without more air appreciably increase idle?
Since the OP has broken this up into 4 (maybe 5) posts over time, I cannot even remember if the knock sensor has been replaced...if it has not, that might be worth a try...if it has, I would wonder if it was over-tightened on install which can cause over-sensitivity (or so I have read).
Interesting puzzle, but like the high number of main pump failures reported on Bosch two-pump systems...I am very skeptical. Every time I have had a problem such as this one, it ended up the simplest possible solution that everyone was POSITIVE they had eliminated.
I am personally guilty of this when working on a car I donated to a friend in need. It was beloved '79 turd wagon's ignition stopped working and the friend swore he had checked the fuses by removing, inspecting, cleaning the clips and retensioning before re-installation of the fuse. I guided him through the ignition switch removal process and gave him my spare from my parts car. No change. Finally I went over there, guess what was wrong... the ends of the plastic and lead fuse were worn through so that he was getting intermittent contact and never enough amperage could pass to trigger the solenoid. I about killed the guy when he said "well it looked ok".
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posted by
someone claiming to be
on
Wed Dec 31 18:00 CST 1969 [ RELATED]
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Yeah, my skeptical raised eyebrow reaction came from the bearing-knock sensor-high-idle scenario too. The reason I am skeptical is the idle control, as far as I understand it, is done by air. Meaning the rpm signal delivered to the ECU is not in any way massaged by the ICU's reaction to the knock sensor, which does retard ignition in response to perceived preignition.
Anyway, beyond the speculation, it would be easy to rule out by simply measuring the idle valve output and correlating that with its effect on idle speed, which I still believe is entirely the job of the fuel ECU.
The fuse story is good. I am entertained every time I hear someone say "my fuse is fine." I've yet to read a post where someone goes on to tell how he knows it is.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
When an actress saw her first strands of gray hair she thought she'd dye.
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