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Hi all-
I have a 59 544 that I'm working toward putting disks on. Picked up calipers, shields, rotors, brackets from a mid-sixties 122 last year.
Finally got around to trying to get the calipers apart with air. Not happening, all three pistons stuck fast. And strangely enough, no bleeders on the calipers!
I could hook them up to the car's hydraulics, but wonder if I'm not just better off getting new calipers.
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=2040168
$40ish each, and I could send my old ones back for cores.
Any experience with these?
I also need a hardline to go from the softline to the caliper. Is there an off-the-shelf piece that will work, or should just just bend/flare my own?
Many thanks - excited to get started on this project at long last.
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Hi again!
Started tearing into things today.
Found the softline for the drums is a male ... something ... fitting, looks neither bubble nor inverted flare, just flat on the end.
What do you do for the softlines? Wouldn't mind replacing them... sure wish I'd saved the ones I took off my 911 a few months ago, haha.
Next thing - the hardline bracket interferes with the suspension upright. So, it clearly needs to be removed or relocated. I like the idea of using a hardline retainer to prevent strain on the hardline.
And since the hardline bracket is going to move, the routing of the hardline is up in the air now.
Any recommendations?
Playing around with it, looks like the 12" hardline isn't long enough to get to the top of the dust shield.
I've been using these pics as background:
http://s144.photobucket.com/albums/r168/malloy1/PV%20Disc%20Conversion/?action=view¤t=PVDISKbrakeconversion_Page_26.jpg
Am I nuts, or does he have the line going into the bleeder hole?
Mocking things up, I see that the caliper does not sit centered over the rotor. With the calipers fully retracted, there is about 1.5mm of clearance on the inside, and zero on the outside. Is this cause for concern? I could grind the brackets down a bit to center things up if necessary.
The photo gallery linked above shows him grinding the pistons down. No way can that be sensible.
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A picture would probably be pretty handy, but alas, I have none.
There is less room inside the wheel well for a flex line to move around than there is on a later car, it seems. So the length and placement of the line is somewhat critical.
I originally (in a git'r'dun mood) just ran the drum brake flex lines directly to the calipers, where they screwed right in and sealed. And drove it that way for several years. The brake lines lightly touched in a spot or two, I wrapped them with tape as a wear buffer.
Then I eventually wanted something a little better. I measured. then got some fairly generic soft lines from a local parts store. I think they were 12" long (could double check).
Obviously, I'd trimmed the dust shield line mounts when I installed them, but hadn't otherwise used them. This time around, I was going to use a short hard line from the caliper to that and the soft line.
But when I drilled a new hole in it and mounted the soft line, it seemed as if it were too far forward. Which made the soft line move around too much as the steering went through its full range of movement, and made it rub the sway bar.
I ended up cutting the mount off and moving it backwards about an inch and a half - so the *flexible* portion of the soft line started near the center of rotation. This allowed the steering to move back and forth without making the effective hose length shrink and grow.
I then just got some generic short lines and cut to length, and used a cheap ($15?) flare kit to reflare the cut end.
--
'63 PV544 rat rod, '93 Classic #1141 245 (now w/16V turbo)
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Thanks for the reply, John!
With the position of the caliper and shields I wound up with (after a couple hours of mocking up), the bracket positions the line as you suggest, so I call that a win.
Futzing around with the old softline, it looked like it was about the right length, so I got 17" universals. Hopefully these can be positioned in such a way to avoid the tires. Nice thing about the clips and brackets is the ability to put a bit of twist on the lines to control how they lie.
Picking up the second hardline and the softlines today, as well as longer bolts and a new battery. With any luck, I'll have it bled and on the road tonight (haha, sure....)
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Been nearly a year since I sourced the parts, time flies when you're having fun.
Haven't even driven it since last October or so.
Here we have the disk brake swap. On the left is the drum assembly, then rotor, softline, caliper adapter, brakeline clips and caliper bolt locks, hardline, caliper, caliper bolts, and dust shield. The drum brake assembly weighed in at 20#, the disk parts at 29#. 9# more unsprung weight sucks, but a small price to pay.
Started by removing the drum, bearings, softline, and backing plate/brake assembly.
The I mounted the caliper adapter and dust shield. Forgot to take pics... but this was the most involved part of the swap.
The caliper adapters are not identical, but either one can be used on either side. I spent a couple hours test fitting things to find the one that best located the pads on the rotor. There's a fine line here - too far outboard, the pads hang over the edge of the rotor; too far in and the dust seal rubs on the hub.
I (think I) wound up swapping side-to-side. This was mostly done to rotate the brake assembly enough that the brake line retainer on the backing plate so that it would clear the steering uprights. But too much rotation and there's not enough meat on the caliper adapter for the bolt.
Anyway, once I figured out which and where I wanted to install, I marked the holes, plug welded an existing hole that was adjacent to a new hole, and drilled away.
Once that was done, a simple matter of installing the rotor, bearings, and dust cap. Gave it a spin by hand to be sure there was no interference with anything.
Installed the caliper, and started bending the line. Hadn't done this before, but pretty easy. Only trick was cutting/flaring the new line - old Volvos are weird, in that they use a metric-style bubble flare on the caliper end (with 3/8x24 SAE thread) and SAE-style inverted (double) flare on the rest of it. Borrowed a flaring tool from the FLAPS, and after a few tries, got it pretty good... wound up having to do one over again due to a fluid leak, but not too big a deal.
Wrapped the line up and around the caliper, keeping it tight to the caliper to stay clear of the wheel.
Then hooked up the new softline.
My older son is getting to be a pro at bleeding brakes, even remarked when he started to feel solidity. And he doesn't grumble about the job like SWMBO does.
Easiest bleed ever, used my transmission funnel to get the brake fluid in. Why Volvo put the master on the frame rail is beyond me.
Put the tires back on, took it for a road test.
:omg: these are about the best feeling brakes I've ever driven. I bet a lot is the lack of power assist, but they are rock solid, easily modulated, and really stop the car nicely. Found a steep hill, and repeatedly laid into the brakes in an effort to elicit fade or misbehavior of any sort. Nope. :nono:
Hardest part of this job (other than pulling the old brakes at the JY surrounded by wasps) was figuring out how to position the caliper adapters. After that, gravy.
So, now that I have safety (seatbelts), cornering (tires), and stopping, it's time to investigate more power.
Like a lot more.
//edit - oh yeah, haven't addressed the shocks yet (they hit the calipers and limit steering). While it's still livable, the turning radius is on par with (or worse than) our 04 v70, a legendary bus-like turner if ever one existed.
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Thanks for the pictures. Looks like a great job. I sourced the parts to do this a couple years ago but been busy with body work. You inspired me to dig them out and have another look. Did you pull the center hubs off the drum and reuse them on the disks? My disk setup came from a 122.
Thanks
Dean
'61 544
'69 1800
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Hi Mr V-
I used the complete 122 disk/hub assembly. Prior reading on this suggested that the guy who swapped to the drum hubs was nuts.
Hardest part was positioning the caliper adapters. Brake lines were locally available, and the flaring tool was a free loaner from OReilly.
I wound up with the 20" bubble, 3/8x24 line. Ended up cutting it down to about 18".
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Thanks. I had read the old approach and was put off by the need to machine the rotors to fit on the hubs from the drums. If it's a straight swap like you indicate, it makes it a whole lot more palatable.
Thanks again
Dean
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I got some more pep in the motor before putting discs on, and I found it rather distressingly easy to fade the drums. I've used the discs a lot harder, and never had any fade.
The shocks are fairly easy to move to the front, well, once you've gotten past the task of taking off those large fine threaded nuts that hold the shock mounts on, the ones that have been sitting there for around 50 years. But other than that, it's easy to move them to the front, and if you have a welder, angle the lower mount inward some.
--
'63 PV544 rat rod, '93 Classic #1141 245 (now w/16V turbo)
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Small update - realized the existing softline wasn't going to work - length was okay, but no provision for a clip, and the washer-style seal wasn't compatible with a flare adapter.
Wound up ordering two 17.25" softlines with flare/clip fittings on both ends.
Returned the 12" hardlines and got 20" instead. These will get cut down to about 16" or so.
The brackets were swapped side to side, so the mounting does NOT look like this:
http://s144.photobucket.com/albums/r168/malloy1/PV%20Disc%20Conversion/?action=view¤t=PVDISKbrakeconversion_Page_16.jpg
I still will (probably) have to plug weld one of the holes, and there's not a tremendous amount of meat on the adapter near one of the bolts. Upside is it gets the caliper at 9 O'clock and rotates the dust shield enough to clear the retainer bracket.
I have not yet ground down the bracket mounting face, and will hold off on that until it's reassembled and tested. Don't see a lot of mention of grinding things, so better safe than sorry.
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I'm glad the calipers are back in stock. This last fall my PV failed it's annual safety inspection for a number of minor issues (I think the inspectors got the word to tighten down), and among the fixes was worn front pads. When I tried to replace them not only were the pistons very reluctant to retract, and stuck in places as soon as I forced them, but the rubber dust covers crumbled into dust as well.
I looked around for a long while trying to find a reasonable source for them. It seemed like almost all the online places had access to two rights and no lefts. I don't think it's a coincidence, I think they all just sell from some common central parts repository on rare stuff like this - no on-the-shelf stock.
After a week of scouring, I finally bought a pair from scandcar.nl for about $100 each.
--
'63 PV544 rat rod, '93 Classic #1141 245 (now w/16V turbo)
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Online sources didn't pan out, stopping short of $100+ from specialty shops. Called the FLAPS, they could only find one side. Suggested I have my existing ones rebuilt instead, $60 each I think I was told.
Dropped off this AM, should hear back in about a week.
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It's just about guaranteed that the pistons in the calipers you have now will be rusty and pitted. That makes them useless. So if you can get reman calipers for $40.00, do so. Otherwise you can buy rebuild kits, and stainless pistons for $25.00 each ( about ) and rebuild them yourself.
As to the brake pipes - I use bubble flare male to inverted flare female conversion fittings to install in the caliper, and then purchase a twelve inch length of pre-made pipe. Take off one flare and its' fitting, and then install the female connecter and re-flare the end of the pipe. You won't be able to purchase a brake pipe with the correct fitting, at least I've never found one.
So you have a project at least!
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Hello,
FYI, most rebuilders do not recoat their calipers when they are done, so they will rust if you install them that way.
The surface rust will not harm the calipers for many centuries, but they will not look good after 10-15 years.
You can buy special paint to coat them your self or you can get powder coated calipers.
We frown on using adapter fittings and fabricating new lines is not that hard to do.
Although we do have the tool to make bubble flares, we usually start with a premade brake line we purchase from the local parts store that already has bubble flares that is longer than necessary.
We usually can buy premade bubble flare brake lines with the correct thread for the one end for the caliper side.
We then cut to length, install the correct fittings and double flare the cut end which is easier.
Just make sure you use the correct fittings with the correct threads.
The brake line fitting into the caliper is NOT METRIC.
In fact, all the brake line fittings for the 3/16" brake tubing on both the 544 and the 122 have 3/8" x 24 threads.
Some of the fittings require metric wrenches, but the threads are not metric.
--
Eric
Hi Performance Automotive Service (formerly OVO or Old Volvos Only)
Torrance, CA 90502
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Hi Eric -
Got the calipers rebuilt, $150 for the pair; more than I wanted to spend, but such is life.
Went to O'Reilly auto parts (aka Kragen) and the bubble flare fittings have metric fittings, the inverted flare are SAE.
Do you have a source for bubble flare 3/16 line with 3/8 x 24 fittings? I suppose I could just cut the old pipes and reuse the fittings from them on the bubble flare pipe, and just toss the metric fittings.
OTOH, if I could find 3/8x24 bubble flare to inverted flare adapters, even though you frown on them, that would work as well, and I could use an off-the-shelf line.
Aha, like so:
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/EDE0/272330/N2033.oap?ck=Search_N2033_-1_-1&categoryRedirect=N2033&pt=N2033&ppt=C0248
Adapter-Standard To Bubble Flare - 3/16" Tube - 3/8-24 Female Inverted Flare Seat x 3/8-24 Male Bubble Flare (Adapts Edelmann 3/16" Brake Lines to most Fiat & English Vehicles)
Thanks for any input!
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That's the exact Edelman part I've used for twenty five years. But if it makes you frown......
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Works for me if it works for you!
Do I need those for the softline end of things as well? Be nice to know before breaking things apart if I need four of them.
Thanks for the help!!
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Thanks for the info on the lines. There is a local brake shop here that can probably assist. Good to know it's not something I need to order online.
My last few sets of calipers I've given a light coat of black engine paint, which seems to keep the rust at bay.
The bleeder that I can't find might be broken off, right next to the crossover pipe.
Ugh, after all this, they are unavailable. Guess I can check with the FLAPS next.
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Hello,
New bleeders are still available and we have used ones as well.
We even have speed bleeders in stock.
http://hiperformanceautoservice.com/product_info.php?products_id=48
And I found at Oreillys Auto website the following metal brake line with bubble flares and 3/8" x 24 fittings.
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/AGS1/PAB308/N0834.oap?ck=Search_brake+lines+steel+-+import_-1_3066&keyword=brake+lines+%28steel%29+-+import
--
Eric
Hi Performance Automotive Service (formerly OVO or Old Volvos Only)
Torrance, CA 90502
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That looks pretty solid, thanks a bunch.
Is 8" the right length?
And is it a bubble flare into the old drum brake softline?
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Hello,
I had not thought of your application when searching for this brake line, I was just looking for prefab metal brake lines with bubble flares and 3/8" x 24 fittings.
8" might be a little short, so here is a 12" and a 20" inch version:
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/AGS1/PAB312/N0834.oap?ck=Search_brake+lines+steel+-+import_-1_3066&keyword=brake+lines+%28steel%29+-+import
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/AGS1/PAB320/N0834.oap?ck=Search_brake+lines+steel+-+import_-1_3066&keyword=brake+lines+%28steel%29+-+import
The brake lines to the CORRECT rear wheel cylinders do not have bubble flares but have inverted flares.
--
Eric
Hi Performance Automotive Service (formerly OVO or Old Volvos Only)
Torrance, CA 90502
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Thanks a bunch - the amazon hardlines are bubble on one end and flare on the other, good to know the PV is the same.
To confirm, doing the front, not the rear... that will come later (if at all) with an axle upgrade.
Sounds like I need an adapter either way if I don't want to reflare the lines.
Many thanks for the help on this!!
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Hello,
You would not find the brake lines premade specifically for this application, at least not from Volvo, as the PV Volvos did not come with front disc brakes.
If you buy rebuilt calipers, you most likely will get the later style of calipers which do not have the crossover pipe, but are internally plumbed.
--
Eric
Hi Performance Automotive Service (formerly OVO or Old Volvos Only)
Torrance, CA 90502
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Kyle;
Shop air at around 100PSI (OK maybe 150PSI unregulated) doesn't nearly make the pressure necessary to budge caliper pistons which haven't moved in years and which may be corroded in place also. I suggest you plumb them up to a vehicle and use the significantly higher pressure available in the brake system to motivate pistons (use limiting blocks to prevent first piston which moves from popping out...hydraulic pressure is done after that!) Bleeders were likely scavenged so obviously would need to be replaced first.
You can make the call about just getting reman caliper after they are apart and you can inspect what you have...for $40, with exchange, I'd consider it...that's quite reasonable! I have no experience with these, but it would be worth it just to avoid the pain of extricating the pistons in yours just to find that they were totally corroded and needed replacement anyway...
I prefer premade lengths of brakelines...no muss, no fuss (British threads, NOT US!)
Good Hunting
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