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REDLINE - M46
HAVE A 1980 245 505,000 kM = ABOUT 300,000 Miles
I know Redline has been discussed rather than Type FHave had no issues with Type F
- after 505,000 Km why mess and fix what ain't broke ??? MHO
So, has ANYONE had issues with MTL or synthetic Type F from Redline ???
Am I taking a RISK by changing ? or am I paranoid
Choice: MTL or Synthetic
Thanks to those that have been LONGTIME Redline users for honest opinions
Cheers.
PS - Live in Canada - many 0 degrees in winter, and 92 in summer
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Odd, no one has jumped in with any comments about Royal Purple products.
--
'75 Jeep CJ5 345Hp ChevyPwrd, two motorcycles, '85 Pickup: The '89 Volvo is the newest vehicle I own. it wasn't Volvos safety , it was Longevity that sold me http://home.lyse.net/brox/TonyPage4.html http://cleanflametrap.com/tony/
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I have no experience in using Redline in a 240 only because of my experience with it in another vehicle.
Some years ago, on the recommendation of the Vanagon transaxle gurus, and at no small expense, I switched to MTL in a Vanagon Syncro. It was winter and I immediately noticed a grind shifting from 1st to 2nd until the van ran down the road enough to warm up.
I lived with this "crunch" until I thought that although this grinding only lasted a short while, it could not be good. As much as I hated to do it, I went back to conventional GL-4 and the grinding stopped as soon as I drained the MTL.
Not long after trying MTL, the transaxle queefed out - the pinion bearing went south and the mainshaft input needle bearing journal developed a wear pattern. Since the trans had about 140 Kmi. on it, I certainly can't say the damage was caused by the MTL, but it was a coincidence which made me reluctant to use anything other than the manufacturer's originally specified lubrication in any rotating machinery.
That's my experience.
Rich
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I've had MTL in a '86 745T M46 for the past 5 years / 12,000 miles.
Also MTL in the '70 145 M41 J-type daily driver for 4 years / 35,000 miles.
The daily driver is used year round in CT w/ temps ranging from about 0 F to 100 F. Neither car is driven extremely aggressively.
I haven't had any issues with slipping, grinding, hard shifting (actually, the M46 shifted easier in the cold with the MTL) etc. and will continue using MTL.
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A synthetic with Type F specs will function in your climate. Synthetic gear lube will cause you problems in the cold with the OD as slippage in all gears starting at about 30F, getting worse as temp drops.
The fluid used MUST be capable of being squeezed out from between the mating surfaces of the Sprag clutch so a metal to metal conact is maintained during force transfer. The same must also occur between the clutch material and mating metal surface on the sliding member similar to the clutch packs in an automatic trans.
The fluids that do this carry a Type F spec. No type F spec and they will not squeeze out completely.
Stay away from a fluid that claims it coats the surfaces or clings to the gears. Someone in Yellow Knife, Canada about 10-12 yeears ago put some Synthetic Gear lube in his trans during mid Jan. He drove home then went nowhere after about four hours. Trans just spun.
Duane
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Thanks Duane
Seen many great reviews on Redline MTL
Bottom line - would you use it in M46 O/D? or stay with Type F
I have 505,000 Km and no issues
Also - what do you rec for Differentaial fluid - 1980 245
I use Valvoline 10-30 winter 10-40 summer in engine
Many Thanks
Mike
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The many responses to my thread is why I do not like to post about synthetics for overdrives.
Transmissions and overdrives do not operate the same so although the marriage is beneficial, there are problems. One is in lubricating both the best for each with one fluid.
Gears need something that will protect contact faces from wear while the OD needs to slip a bit before final lock up. Best for gears is something that will not get squeezed out of the way and stay put. This is not good for the OD since for best operation it needs no fluid to lock up properly.
The compromise is a fluid that will squeeze out yet return almost instantaneously when the pressure is released.
The fluid that does this delicate dance between staying put and getting squeezed out carries a Type F (or G)specification.
To those of you using a synthetic not certified for the Type F specification, and not having apparent trouble, continue to use since it is your vehicle and you may do as you wish. There is slippage, you may not notice it but it is there. It is not evident until you take it apart. Burnt rollers on the Sprag, scoring on the Sprag race, and worn lining on the sliding member. The stuff that clogs filters.
My opinion about which fluid to use in the 80.
If your auto is set up for racing and you do race, or the way you drive puts a lot of stress on everything, use a synthetic that is Type F certified. Pick a brand.
There are two synthetics for transmissions available that are Type F certified. One from Amsoil and one from Redline.
If you are a regular driver who changes fluids on a regular schedule, what the engineers who joined the OD and transmission together recommends in the Factory Manual is a lot cheaper and does the lubrication intended.
Differential fluid. I use a synthetic Gear lube for differnetials. By design, the diff goes through hell daily. Which one would probably start another round of experience one-upmanship.
Duane
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Duane, are you referring to gear oils, perhaps stuff that is spec'd as 80W90 hypoid lube? I hesitate to quibble with an expert such as yourself, but in the 10 years of using the MTL in two M46 gearboxes, the cars have been driven in temperatures down to -30C (-22F), with no apparent slippage in the OD unit.
And I always let them warm before engaging the OD, and there again - no issues.
Of course until things warm up, the shift lever is pretty stiff, but any petroleum fluid, even synthetic, will thicken up at those temps.
For fun I looked up the January temperatures in Yellowknife NWT 10 years ago and their extreme low was -44C (-48F!), so most oils would be like axle grease at that temp.
--
Bob: son's XC70, dtr's '94-940, my 81GL, 83-DL, 89-745(V8) and 98-S90. Also 77-MGB and some old motorcycles.
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I had an experience with MTL exactly as Duane describes, about 10 years ago, and had some discussion with him about it. Indeed, in cold weather (maybe -25 ish) the sprague clutch in the OD would slip so badly that the car would not move. Going back to type F fixed it mostly, but I replaced the M46 not too long after. This year I was having the worn-piston-seals engagement issue when hot, so after some research switched to Amsoil 75-90. That is a GL4 and a bit heavier than MTL. The engagement issue is completely better, shifting in 1-4 is improved (even when very cold,) and no problems (so far) with slipping sprague clutch (-30 Celsius yesterday.) So, it seems that Duane is right because it happened to me, and those who use synthetic gear oil are right if it works for you...
--
67 144, 85 740T, 86 740T, 91 945SE, BMW R69S, R60/2
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MTL has been great in the 244Ti and the '79GT for the last decade or two.
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Hi 1980,
A Redline competitor is Amsoil. You can see variances with the specs each company posts. I think the Super Shift has slightly better specs.
I use products Amsoil in all M47 II trannies, differentials, and wheel hub bearings. The engine gets Mobil 1.
I'm almost certain the 1980 model year Volvo with M46 uses Type F. Verify with your 1979 Volvo 240 owner manual. Can't find mine from my 242 GT.
So, you can use:
- Amsoil Super Shift® Racing Transmission Fluid (ART)
http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/art.aspx
- Redline Racing ATF (Type F)
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=52&pcid=9
When you change M46 fluid, the Laycock J-type over drive unit retains some oil.
If the old fluid in your transmission is really bad, like a dark, dark brown and well burnt smell, and you see some silver bits, some will:
- Perform an intermediate fill of a quality mineral Type F, drive for some miles, a few hundred or a few thousand, and more, drain, and refill with your new synthetic type F.
- Drain the M46 transmission, remove the "pan" or plate at the bottom of the overdrive, clean the screen.
I have flushed with brake parts cleaner (it must be a residue free solvent that won't damage seals!) through the fill hole allowing it to drain out. Point forward and back if you can. Be careful to protect your eyes and face from the brake parts cleaner spray. Don't use the little red straw or else you can lose it inside the tranny! You may or may not want to spray up into the over drive works. Give some minutes for the brake parts cleaner to evap. Reinstall the plate and all using a new gasket and, if you want, a thin layer of a quality RTV or simply a film of oil on both sides of the gasket. And fill with your chosen synthetic Ford "Type F"-compliant fluid.
Remember:
- Verify you can remove and replace the fill plug BEFORE verifying you can remove and replace the drain plug.
- Some will raise the Volvo auto on the passenger side for a complete drain.
- Always raise the Volvo on the driver side so you can perform the transmission overfill. Search brickboard and the 700-900 FAQ about info to slightly over fill the manual tranny. (You can also do the same when replacing differential fluid.)
- Use redundant jack stands doing so, always. Safety FIRST!
Comments? Questions?
Thanks,
Bruce.
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Bruce,
Excellent post. Nice detail.
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chrisjul,
Sir, thank you most kindly and welcome. Very, very glad to help us RWD brickboard Volvo drivin' champions!
I have to admit, I was biased by Amsoil quite some time ago as a vendor was nearby. Yet all I've heard of MTL is as good a kudos as any for synthetic lubricants. I mean read the specs of both brands. Amazing!
As for synchros in an M47 II-
- A 1990 240 DL wagon with around 170,000 (or much, much more as the odometer was replaced ten years ago from a front and rear chain reaction crash repair). Second gear synchro ground and grinds. I do not ever force it into gear, just let it bump out in protest and try again successfully, usually. It'd catch and grind most nastily if I was not conscientious. (I've driven stick on autos with no synchros.) The old fluid was just rotten and burnt and brown, yet very little silver. One intermediate flush of a quality mineral of the Ford "Type F" spec lube, or I may have done my brake parts cleaner "flush and dry". That M47 II tranny shifts like flipping a quiet light switch.
- A 1992 240 GL, with 140,xxx. Buy it August 2007. The synchros stick and on occasion is catches. The tranny (like the whole 240) was awfully neglected. A prior owner slammed the M47 II it into gear. Finally, few months later and fluids replacement. The M47 II tranny fluid was extremely rotten, dark, dark brown, more silver than I'd ever seen complete with a gear tooth piece! I did use solvent free break parts cleaner to "flush and dry" the tranny (spray around the fill hole and point up into tranny cavity and drain until clean and clear comes about - maybe a half can). Re-tilt the 240 for our manual tranny overfill trick we all do (and we ALL do the, yes?) with the Amsoil ART. Smoooooth as butter. Like flippin' a light switch. But I drive like a gentle doddering owld bastard. Hopefully makes up for the prior owner abuse.
- My 1991 240 that is pretty abuse free also has the Amsoil ART. It shifted smooth before, yet now, it is absolute quiet bedroom light switch.
In all M47s, sometimes you get a sticky bit when shifting, yet never a grind when using the M47 tranny properly.
All of the transmission run WAY cooler. While on the mighty West Coast I-5 in the deadening Summer heat of the California central valley at near 95°-100°, the base of the stick shift above the shift bellows was not much hotter. On mineral oil, in the 80°-90° range, the base of the M47 stick was much hotter.
Redline in your Volvo manual tranny, if you read the brickboard posts, does the same.
Maybe Redline is more popular since it sold through stores and retail outlets?
Amsoil uses private dealers (at home) on a hierarchy, primarily.
Actually, the M47 synchros were designed specifically for Ford spec "Type F". No friction reducing modifiers as in Dexron. The synchros use the hydrostatic or hydraulic resistance the fluid provides to function.
I think the M41/M46 can make use of a slightly wider range of lubes, yet these without friction modifiers. See your factory Volvo 240 owners manual.
Questions and comments?
Sorry, I do go on.
Thank you,
Happy Friday.
Unemployed Technical Writer with too much Under-steer
--
synthetically lubed .sig. How I miss the UNIX days.
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posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Wed Jan 18 17:44 CST 2012 [ RELATED]
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been using it in my 80 244, M45 -4sp and 87 245 M-47 5 spd for 10 years.
There was much discussion on the BrickBoard in the early 2000's about Redline MTL, and Amisol vs ATF esp in the M-47 which has problems. Much was said about MTL extending the life of M-47s that were thought to be near toast.
If you read the Redline MTL spec sheet, they make a good argument, esp regarding syncros. MTL is specifically formulated for manual trans (syncros).....while ATF is not.
and since it is synthetic sub zero does not change its viscosity like dino based libes (petroleum based), nor does hi temp.
Read their specs.
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I've had the Redline MTL in both the 240's for about 9 or 10 years now. The 83 was beginning to have difficulty keeping the OD engaged when it got fully warmed up on a hot day, if speed dropped below about 80km/h (50MPH). It would shudder and kick in and out. This is an indication of leaking piston seals and the proper fix is to replace them with a later, improved type, but....
I changed to MTL after seeing their technical data showing the stuff maintained its viscosity better at high temps than ATF, and it has a GL-4 gear wear rating. They also claim superior frictional characteristics for synchronizer rings leading to smoother shifting.
The result was a definite improvement (but not total cure) of the OD engagement issue, and I noted - or was pretty sure I did - a "slicker" feel to gear changes.
The 81 had no problems, but I put MTL in it after the results I saw in the 83.
Duane Hoberg ("OD Guru" on this BB) is not a fan of the stuff and I respect his opinion, but my experience with Redline's MTL has been satisfactory. IIRC, Duane recommends a synthetic Type F if you insist on a synthetic.
--
Bob: son's XC70, dtr's '94-940, my 81GL, 83-DL, 89-745(V8) and 98-S90. Also 77-MGB and some old motorcycles.
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I had the same issue with the seals leaking in my 82 glt, I was going to switch to redline Mtl but my Indy Volvo garage sugested straight 30weight instead. It completely cured the slipping in and out of OD around 80-90kms an hour. I did that in July and it has worked flawless since, even after it warms up it will engage the OD at around 60kms or so. Where before the change I'd have to get it up over 100 to get the bloody thing to kick in when it was warm.
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