posted by
someone claiming to be Albert Boasberg
on
Wed Dec 28 12:55 CST 2011 [ RELATED]
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I have a 1984 244 turbo that just turned 240,000 miles. It was my first brand new car.
I live a couple of miles from where I work and so I ride my bike to and from the job. As a result I drive just 8,500 miles a year, give or take. The Volvo has been my only car for the past 27 1/2 years.
The Volvo has been a good car, and extremely reliable, but I am at a cross roads and I need advice from my BB brethren. A few months ago, I noticed that every couple of weeks the coolant level in the expansion tank would drop inexplicably. I would refill it and all would be fine. Check the level again 2-3 weeks later and find the tank almost dry.
I had my suspcions about this and finally took the car to my mechanic the Friday before Christmas. He called yesterday and said that the headgasket, which is original...in fact, I've never done anything to the engine aside from oil changes and tune-ups....is leaking internally and needs to be replaced lest I trash the engine.
I also have a small but steady leak from the steering rack (never been replaced), and the clutch is just about ready to go. I had a new clutch put in at 135K miles, this one only lasted about 105K. Must be all of the stop and go city driving.
Total cost for the head gasket, a new (remanufactured) rack and outer tie rods, and a clutch job, is around $2800.
My brain tells me this is too much money to sink into the car. On the other hand, so far, it has cost me very little. I've replaced the turbo, exhaust, radiator, wiring harness, one fuel pump, the TAB bushings, and the clutch. Those have been my only "major" repairs to date.
The body is also still in really nice condition. I've kept the car garaged and wash/wax it regularly. The silver paint still looks great. The interior is also clean and doesn't show much wear. Non-Volvo people don't believe the age/mileage of the car.
What would you do? I figure a decent used car would set me back at least $10K. That would pay for a lot of repairs to the Volvo. On the other hand, I don't know how much life is left in the engine or transmission. I could sink $2800 into it and have more problems six months, a year, two years from now.
Decisions, decisions...
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If these are the only 2 issuses you have I would not be afraid to keep the car.
A leaking headgasket should not be difficult as long as the head is not warped and you DO NOT REUSE THE HEADGASKET BOLTS. I believe they can not be resued because they can stretch( but do check it out)
Replacing the steering rack I belive can be done with a standard set of metric wrenches and scockets. I would keep the car.
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I don't technically know anything about this car but it sounds awesome and that you love it! Now that I've had an old Volvo I want no other car and am selling my custom luxurious VW GTI with all the bells and whistles for a 90's era 240. I say keep it!
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My first question for you is - do you like the car?
Second question - are you willing to do your own work? It sounds like you usually farm out the work. A clutch job is no walk in the park (especially if you have to do it twice) and mostly because of the starter bolts.
If there is no head gasket leak, I would not be concerned about the other problems. They are essentiall normal maintenance/wear. Even a blown head gasket is sort of normal after 150,000 miles in a bimetallic engine head/block arrangement.
The body of a car is valuable. It's extremely expensive to repair paint, dents, etc. If it's in good condition, it's a great asset.
Would you be happy to have another car, or would you like to drive this car for another 10 years?
Cheers!
--
1990 740 Turbo, on its way to stock specs, maybe beyond
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You know.. a car like this is a keeper. Especially if it has a nice body. If it's been good to you, take care of it. Headgasket on a B23/230 is cheap and easy. It shouldn't cost you much at all to have it replaced - especially if you do it yourself.
Easy to own such a car. lots of experts out there. lots of parts still available.
I agree with the other folks, that repair quote is way high. That's about what I pay for a car needing a few repairs.
This car has fewer miles than my daily driver 945 and the same as my 1998 c70. It should be good for at least 500,000 if taken care of.
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Keep it. With the limited miles you need a car, investing $10k seems unnecessary. The "new" car could depreciate $2800 in one yr.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Albert Boasberg
on
Thu Dec 29 11:38 CST 2011 [ RELATED]
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Gentlemen,
Thank you for all of the replies, I wasn't expecting that!
I, too, am a skeptical about the claimed head gasket leak. Mostly because the engine appears to run just fine. The oil is a *little* milky, but that could be because I haven't taken the car out for a long drive recently, and with a possible HG leak, I am reluctant to do so. I have checked the water pump and thermostat by idling the car in my driveway for 30 min and I don't see any weeping or leaks.
As far as the break down of costs, the parts are:
Clutch kit, $300.00 (this includes pressure plate, disc, TO bearing, and r seal)
Tranny mount 40.00
Reman Rack 250.00
Out tie-rods 150.00
HG Set 135.00
Parts Total: $875.00
Labor for the clutch job, including resurfacing the flywheel, is estimated at 3 hours @ $125.00 per hour - $375.00.
Labor for the rack and tie-rods, including alignment, is estimated at 5 hours @ $125.00 per hour - $625.00.
Labor for the headgasket is estimated at 7 hours @ $125.00 per hour - $875.00. This includes anticipated machine work on the head and could be reduced if the head is still true.
So total is $2,750.00. With sales tax it would be well over $2,900.00.
I pulled out my repair records the other day and this is what I have done to the car so far (forgot a few items in my original post):
Starter
Voltage Regulator/Brush pack on alternator
Fuel injection wiring harness
Fuel pump (in-tank pump)
Two water pumps
Radiator
Two sets of motor mounts
Catalytic converter
Cat-back exhaust
Turbocharger
Front wheel bearings
Ball joints
Brake master cylinder
Clutch
Rebuilt overdrive solenoid per Duane's instructions
Trailing arm bushings and panhard rod bushings
Heater/blower motor
I guess that is not a bad repair history for a 28 year old car that is approaching a 1/4 million miles?
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posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Sun Jan 1 00:38 CST 2012 [ RELATED]
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apply this logic to your decision
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnmhzAoKs-w
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Yep, I think I figured out what that mechanic got in his Christmas stocking. It was one of those Rondo slice and dicers. He plans to use it on his customer’s wallets!
The clutch kit for your car is cheaper than the 90’s cars, so he is about a hundred bucks off there.
Resurfacing the flywheel is like having a brake rotor turned, if it shows hot spots for about 10 bucks!
He could just spray brake cleaner on the flywheel, start the engine and have it idle to spin the flywheel. Then using a coarse grit flap wheel on an angle grinder, scrub down the surface to remove residues like any previous disc material and oil vapor. Either method, done or not as you cannot see it, in 90 days it is probably out of warranty for labor.
Just curious, who was the last person that did the clutch that lasted 105,000? It could have been the installation or the quality of the replacement kit.
As the other poster said, both parts of the tie-rods come with the rack. You are talking two power steering hoses fittings, two U-bolts style clamps, two end rod nuts and one steering link bolt and the rack is down and out! Working with a rack for five hours, it would have to be closer to a pool table, than the one in a garage, IMHO!
For an alignment, you will only need the toe-in/toe-out re checked, which runs like 30 dollars tops!
The transmission mount should cost about the same as a motor mount, 15 to 20 dollars.
Did you replace the radiator with a metal one as the one it came with? The 1985-6 and up years were plastic/aluminum ones that will leak under the end caps as they expand/shrink under those aluminum-crimping clips?
Have you changed the coolant regularly, as electrolysis is something to consider? I have liked the five-year GO-5 Zerex stuff for years.
You could use two items to check for leaks besides a “questionable” compression test. I like doing a cold coolant system test. I use a combination vacuum/pressure testing hand pump and for all kinds of other things. Second is an exhaust gas tester that sucks on the entire coolant system with the engine running? It passes any gases, if present, through a chamber of chemical color reactant. It is for only head/block related problems involving exhaust/coolant leakage.
All paid, professional mechanics should have both available to them, as they are inexpensive and make for a conclusive diagnosis!
Famous lines are “I never expected to find this.” “What would you like to do with it now?” Oh Boy I love play $tick-to-yaw-time! He does not say it, but it is the thought that counts! Where have I heard that before?
I saw my sister-in law give her 98 Range Rover to charity, over that line! One bad head gasket, turned into a slipped cylinder liner right where the leak was, AFTER he had both heads totally rebuilt!
You can tell I am still grumbling and it was not even my car! I recently saw a documentary on MSNBC that BMW dump Range Rover ownership because as they put it “Range Rover was a mess!”
I know they were using a GM/Buick designed engine, which RR made proprietary and probably made in Mexico too.
Now, whom do you point the finger at on with these wavering designs of new cars? Better, keep the old car as long as you can and side step the mess going on.
They cannot even make up their minds on what kind of standard to use for a simple charging method or stations. It is obvious that induction charging is the only easy answer for several good reasons. Copper charging cords, gone in one slice, end of story.
Phil
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Moreover, $125/hr labor????????
My indie in Boston is $65/hr. $125 is like dealer prices.
-Jesse
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The labor hours seem about right compared to my estimate for a head gasket. My shop charges around $85 an hour instead so cost is lower, but still we're talking $1400-1700 total in Portland, Oregon. I don't know what city your in, but repair costs vary widely across the country, and within larger cities.
Part of the head gasket cost is other part replacements that are easy to do when engine is torn down, and these add up, but are necessary (e.g. timing belt). You may find the total bill higher on delivery day.
I think it's worth the cost, but if there are other mechanics in your area that know Volvos, I would get a second estimate.
There is also this excellent quality sealant that I used on my HG leak: Irontite My shop recommended it and uses it on customers cars. I added it myself and it works nearly instantly. I bought it at a reputable machine shop ($18). I have no leaks after six months and still going strong.
Keep this car. Cars are expensive. You won't find a better car for less money.
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"Labor for the rack and tie-rods, including alignment, is estimated at 5 hours @ $125.00 per hour - $625.00."
When I did my rack, at night, with a flashlight, in the driveway, on jackstands, alone, with one arm (separated shoulder) it did not take me that long.
Reman racks come with tie rods; outer tie rod ends do not cost $75 ea.
"...oil is a little milky..."
that is not due to sitting. But I recommend a compression test and a leakdown test.
With all the other work on the car, much of which already addresses expected issues, no way I'd sell it. It's clearly going to last a long time to come.
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Albert,
In this entire thread, I don't know if anyone has mentioned the possibility of the heater core leaking. Given the age of the car, a bad core is very possible. Here are some things to think about:
Does the car still run good?
As someone mentioned, do you see steam in the exhaust?
Has the mechanic done a compression check of all 4 cylinders?
When the engine is idling, unscrew the coolant cap. Are there bubbles coming up in the coolant?
Is the oil getting a milky look to it (and possibly the level rising)?
Do you smell a sweet antifreeze smell inside the passenger cabin?
Are you getting an oily film on the inside of the windshield?
Do you see any coolant on the garage floor?
Have you ever replaced the coolant cap?
I know a leaking head gasket is absolutely possible, but I hate to see you pay someone to dig into it without being sure that's the problem.
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If you like the car and it's not rusty or rotted, keep it.
$2800 isn't soooo bad. A little pricey.
A head job seems to be about a grand, and the clutch should be about the same... and they're two completely separate tasks, so no labor savings there. A rack should be a bit cheaper than the remaining $800. Obviously, a DIY approach would save you a bucket of money, but if it's not in the cards, then it's not in the cards.
FWIW, many recent cars (made in the last 10 years) can throw $2800 worth of repairs at you pretty easily. Doesn't matter the make. I've seen estimates approaching and exceeding that on 2004 Volvo's, Honda's, Toyota's. Doesn't take much, and all brands have an Achilles heel. Cars simply aren't designed anymore to last much longer than the longest payment or lease schedule.
This is why I'd argue to keep the car, but only if you like it. No shame in going for a change.
-Ryan
--
Athens, Ohio
1987 245 DL 324k, Dog-hauler
1990 245 DL 142k M47, E-codes, GT Sways/Braces, Dracos, A-cam
1990 744GLE 189K 16-valve
1991 745 GL 304k
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The first thing that you have to get over is thinking of the car as if it was an appliance like a toaster or iron that you throw away when they break. These cars were made to go for hundreds of thousands of miles. Any machine that has that type of lifespan built into it will need some work from time to time. I assume that you like (or even love) the car, since you've kept it for all these years. If it was rotting away or constantly breaking down, then I could see a reason to dump it.
--
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=53563&id=1189132524&l=75a2564d60
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Err... I'm sure he realizes it is not a disposable appliance, after all, he's had it 27.5 years!
And judging by the list of things he's done to it, he's aware that it occasionally needs work.
He's just wondering when too much is too much.
In my opinion, that time only comes on a 240 when it's too rusty to drive. Especially if you've had it that long and really like it.
-Jesse
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For six hundred dollars in parts, the mechanic did not get what he wanted in his Christmas stocking.
He may not want to do the job and he might be trying to price you away or going to make it well worth his time, too plunk, around on your car. $2,800 can buy a whole car that age nowadays.
You should be able to get the clutch changed out for about 150 bucks in labor easily.
The part that worries me is the head gasket leaking internally. You did not mentioning that it ran lousy! IF, the head gasket leaked only into the cylinders with the engine running did you see a lot of steam from the tail pipe all the time?
If not, you could just as well have a radiator sweating somewhere, a water pump seepages from seals i.e. the o-ring to head. Look at the hoses through the firewall near the dipstick for dripping under pressure or a heater core dripping over the transmission from the A/C pan.
Pulling the head is a little more involved but is easy on normally aspirated cars. I do not know if you can lift the turbo and exhaust header all in one move. The gasket set is about 125 dollars and if you triple the parts cost to get labor costs you get 375 dollars, which is not bad for one day of work.
Yes, I would look around for second opinions or even third options, like getting involved with tools, manuals and then it turns into, a hobby time with payback for a many more years too come!
Besides, Volvos are just as easy to work on as a multi speed bicycle.
Phil
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I agree that the head gasket "leak" is suspect.
As Machine Man suggests, there should be other symptoms. Otherwise look for a small leak from the cooling system.
With my 240, there is a slight leak at the thermostat. It doesn't bother me because the level only drops a bit then stops. A small amount of fluid remains in the expansion tank.
It may be related to the pressure the system achieves on warmup. It doesn't go higher because the thermostat kicks in so the leaking stops after a certain amount of "excess" fluid is pushed out. Topping it up just causes the added fluid to be pushed out until the low level is once again reached.
So if there is still fluid in your expansion tank, don't worry. Just carry a small bottle with premixed for top-up.
I'd keep the car.
(Note: I'm not competing with MM for longest post.)
--
1980 245 Canadian B21A with SU carb but electronic ignition and M46 trans in Brampton, Ont.
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"You should be able to get the clutch changed out for about 150 bucks in labor easily"
So you are saying this is a 1-1.5 hour book job? Lordy I suck at doing clutches.
Mike
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Yes, it is possible to change a clutch in an hour and half. Especially at 100 dollars an hour, you should get a professional with a passion for using tools.
I myself use a car lift, transmission lift and air tools where appropriate. It takes me longer too because I ponder stuff and clean more than is necessary, which is what you probably do too. We are both hobbyist and owners at heart.
The actual work is easy.
Four bolts each for the cross member and drive shaft. Pull the pin for the shifter and start working at the main bolts with extensions for the top bolts for about 25 minutes.
Pull back and rotate the transmission as it drops. Half dozen small bolts for the clutch going both ways and in 15 minutes you are on the turn around. You could pull the flywheel and throw in a rear main seal for another total of 15 minutes time max.
It is all a matter of access, tools and execution. Most transmission shops have to be setup to work like an oil change shop. Oil shops say 10 minutes or it is free, even though I do not believe it. I am sure the devil is in the details, anything to get you to come in.
Here is a story, again...ho hum... another long post but I do try to have a point. You may have to nod off to get there though. :)
About six years ago, I was off traveling in my 1987 454 cubic inch 27ft. motor home. My automatic transmission failed (53,000 miles) on a Friday afternoon of a Labor Day weekend. I limped, in low gear only off the freeway, to a shop close to the freeway. That large shop, which worked only on Allison’s transmissions for bigger motor homes and trucks, had me limp to another smaller independent shop about four miles away. Two of which had to be back down on the freeway, in terrible traffic, but I made it stressfully on the shoulder with flashers.
Later that next morning I got it swapped out with a rebuilt for 1,250 dollars in 2.5 hours total time which included the test drive and hand shaking! I had to pay up an extra 100 dollars on the side for his mechanic to come back in because it was a Saturday to boot.
Yes, I really did luck out that they were honest professionals and possibly hungry which I know is not the norm. It may have help out that I keep my stepdads World War II (Normandy/Pointe du-hoc) Rangers Symbol on the rear spare tire cover, as it was his motor home that he gave me, so I think his luck rides with me at times in that big 10,000 lb. rig!
I follow what that shop recommends for oil changes with their additive at every 10,000 miles. I took it back to them just 2 years ago because it always shifted so smooth which was so much better than the factory transmission. 110 dollars with oils, parts and any adjustments for a total and 40 minutes time with smiles included. It is a shame they are 400 miles from my house as I might let them work on my Volvos, if any were automatics.
They told me what I was learning that those big Chevys run very hot and they sit around a lot. Both are detrimental. As much as a Volvo has been termed as a “Foreign Chevy,” I would never buy a Chevy because of their cheap tricks and their let you fix it later tactics!
Another reason that is better to fix what you have, as you know where the bugs are!
Phil
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I'd sell it and buy another one but I do my own work so ....
Best for you might be to get other estimates. $2800 seems high. If you know your mechanic, ask how he figured it.
It ends up around $400 if you do the work and machine the head I think.
For me this isn't worth it. I swapped an engine in one last year to fix a bad head gasket.
--
240s: 2 drivers and some parts cars
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Just thinking the numbers here....
Option #1:
If you sold the car, you'd bring in about $2000 max, even from a Volvo nut that plans to go home and do the repairs themselves. Then, as you indicated, you would likely spend about $10,000 on a nice used car. Net cost = about $8000 with unknown repair costs in your future.
Option#2:
$2800 and you're back on road, also with unknown repair costs in your future. However, in this case you at least have a pretty good idea of what repairs are REALLY needed in the near future.
We're looking at a net difference of $5200 out of pocket - not exactly chump change.
With option #1, you can look at a newer car all day long and have a brand-knowledgeable mechanic look at it also, and chances are the two of you together will expose about half of what it will need in repairs in the near future.
Given how much you drive each year, I'd be inclined to kick the expense can down the road as much as possible. If you absolutely hated your car, it would be a different story and you might be more compelled to sell the old one. But it sounds as though you're perfectly content as long as the necessary repairs are made.
A 240 with a manual trans is a bit more desirable than an auto trans. If it's a two door, it's even more desirable (at least with those here on the BB).
I guess from what I read in your post, I'd have to lean toward keeping the old one. I know you probably have friends that will tell you that you're absolutely crazy to dump $2800 into "that old car". But what do they know besides what day their car payment is due each month!
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$2800.... to me, that is way more than that work is worth; maybe my idea of shop costs isn't sufficiently up to date, but damn.
If you do the head (valves etc. which you didn't say specifically, but which I'd recommend) and hg you ought to be good to go for many more years; 240k is not that much really. I'd expect another 40-60k easy.
Other repairs, suspension mostly, replacing bushings, but then you're ready for another 100k.
To sell the car, that would be easy with its current condition, there are enthusiasts who'd pay well for it I think.
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This is a tough one but you have to break it down into a hierarchy of needs:
Will the car meet all your needs once repaired:
Is it big enough (passenger volume)
Is it fuel efficient enough
Can it tow/haul 90% of what you need
Do its limitations impact your enjoyment of the car:
Is it too loud
Is it too unreliable
Is it too slow
Is it lacking technology/safety items that I feel are important
What do I expect from the car if repaired:
Put a yearly dollar value on acceptable repairs
Decide how long you plan to keep it
Compare it to the competition:
What is out there in my price range (current plus future repair costs or an arbitrary $ value) that I want and what does it do/not do compared to the 240.
Now the emotional part, since you have owned it since new you do have an emotional obligation to repair it (but this is not an overwhelming obligation). In particular since these are wear items that have failed and not inadequately engineered items.
For me, I keep coming back to the RWD Volvo's because of their durability, DIY friendly and flexible nature. I know few vehicles that can tow 3000#'s, park in a modern Honda Civic footprint, carry a refrigerator (1955 flat-top) and still get over 20mpg in the city and close to 30 MPG on the highway. The closest I have found is something like the Honda Element but it lacks the DIY friendliness and towing capacity.
I would fix it myself and save about 2/3'rds of the money mentioned. If you feel you are not up to the task...buy $500 in parts and $2000 in tools and then you have $300 left over for beer and pizza for your wrenching friends to show you how to do the repairs. This mix is not is not necessary as you probably only need about $300 in tools even if you are starting from scratch.
Mike
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I would get a second opinion on the cost of repairs.The rack is maybe $300 tops and you could install it yourself, along with tie rods.Head gasket you can do too or have another shop give you a quote.Clutch? Never did one so no opinion there.I still think you can do better than $2800.I lean towards fixing it!
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