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Hi all,
I am sitting in my 93 240 waiting for the dash lights to flicker again as they have been doing intermittenty for the last couple weeks. At the moment, a different cluster is in place and so far, no lights.
The reason for the different cluster is that I just checked the [relatively new Bosch] regulator and brushes and all seems well. The red wire is in place as well and the reason I haven't bothered to track it down earlier is that my voltmeter never drops when the the lights are on. Today I checked it with a dmm- same result.
My question then, is what to check on the 93's cluster? What would make it flicker but not the (older, with more miles) other one?
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Well, I bit the bullet and did it. I drove down to FCP Groton and picked up a Bosch rebuilt unit.
I just came back from a long drive. It seems that the dash light problem is gone! Phew. Thanks so much for everyone's help - especially Art - without you I'd still be sitting in my chair in the garage scratching my head.
Now for the question: what voltage should I be seeing from the new alternator? After the drive (hot, but no load), I'm getting 13.4 at the cigarette lighter (and gauge) and 13.5 between the post and the case. With everything on, and hot, it can drop below 12 - not what I want to see, especially after spending the bucks for it...
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Check it at the post to the case, but check it cold. With load and at idle, you should see 13.8 at least. Remember it gets pretty warm next to the exhaust manifold in July. This temperature de-rating curve gives you an indication of how a battery should be charged with respect to ambient t.
If it still drops to 12 with a load, tighten up those belts about half an octave - water pump endangering tight - and test again, before condemning the new part, and relaxing them to the 1/2" deflection spec.
(note this was a mod for external regulators)
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Anybody who doesn't know what soap tastes like never washed a dog.
-Franklin P. Jones
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I let the car cool down during dinner then when out to do some other things on it. When I was in there, i re-cleaned the alternator ground and replaced the belts with new ones just in case the old ones were slipping. After everything was back together, I got 13.8v with no load.
It drops to 13.2-13.4 with things on, but looking at the voltmeter in the dash, that is pretty close to where the old one was with the Bosch regulator and brushes. It was a little higher with the older no-name regulator and brushes.
I guess unless someone says otherwise, I'll call it done, though I do plan to keep an eye on that voltmeter just in case.
thanks again!
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Check the L-shaped plug first. The unsupported wiring gives this a chance to wiggle some, and if the contacts are loose on the speedometer's circuit board, the power for the warning lights and gauges, and alternator exciter will drop. However, if there is enough residual magnetism in your alternator rotor's iron core, the charging may go on uninterrupted even as the excitation voltage is removed.
There are many other possible causes, too, but the power plug is a good place to start. Just doing the cluster swap may have temporarily cleared the problem. Verify it still exists with the correct cluster in place before jumping to the conclusion the trouble exists in the cluster itself.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
She criticized my apartment, so I knocked her flat.
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Thanks Art. I just realized that that connector supplied power and my bet is that is was loose somehow. This issue only started after I had had the cluster out for an unrelated issue many times in a couple days, so I bet in my haste to put it back the last time, I didn't completely seat the connector.
Right now the correct cluster is back in. So far, no issues. My fingers are tightly crossed.
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If the cluster was apart, there are other pitfalls in that circuit. The ones that come to mind are the four-pin connection to the speedo gauge and the flex fuse held by two screws at the top of the gauge.
Here's a link containing a close-up of the power connector showing how you can open it and tighten the contact spring force.
http://cleanflametrap.com/speedoDiag.html
Don't be tempted to add thickness to the circuit board fingers with solder; the spring force will bury the contacts into the soft solder, and be relieved again in short order.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
When you dream in color, it's a pigment of your imagination.
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Thanks. The cluster was only apart as far as needed to add a tach [EDIT: and get rid of the temp compensation board and add a jumper]. Otherwise it was just taken out and put back in. I was running wires for gauges and fog lights at three different times.
It looks like the connection isn't the problem though. It started flickering again and no amount of connection wiggle seemed to help. I think I'll put the other cluster in for a longer time to see if it does it as well. I'd like to isolate the issue before taking the otherwise good cluster apart.
What is also weird is that the lights seem to get dimmer when I rev the car. Could this be an internal alternator problem that doesn't show up as voltage drop?
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Okay, I have more info - all bad...
I swapped the cluster again and after about ten minutes got the lights. The car seemed like it was idling funny as well, and after putting it in D and then back in P, it high idled (1100 or so). At this point the warning lights were not on. Turning it off and on again had no effect on either.
Since the cluster seemed to be ruled out, I put the old one back in. Now the SRS light is on. ON, not flickering - there is no doubt that it is on.
Still, voltage at the cigarette lighter is above 13V at all times.
EDIT: more info
I turned off the SRS light - it seems that it and maybe the idle were caused by moving the car with the older cluster. Either way, I'm back to the original problem.
Voltage at the battery is steady at 13.7-8V with all accessories off and the car warm. With everything on, that drops to almost 12V but the flickering lights don't show up at all on the DMM and I can't find any rhyme or reason for them.
Since the lights seems to go out at higher rpm, I checked the damper just in case it was slipping. Marks lined up before and after the problem.
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I could explain away the SRS light behavior and the idle problem by using the wrong year cluster, but the return of the flickering lights and dimming with rev point me back to the alternator. The brushes might be floating on a worn commutator (uneven ring surface) or I suppose the ground may even be broken.
The rate, consistency, and intensity of the flickering has to match up with the cause. I'm sure it is hard to describe the nuances of a "flicker." Regular and rhythmic might even point to an alternator fault like an open diode or shorted stator winding. A random flicker could be a loose terminal resonating to engine vibration. New brushes trying to seat themselves into deep ruts on the slip rings might have their own pattern I've not seen yet.
Anything that shows up as the headlights dimming has to be reflected by your voltage measurements if carefully made. The regulator should be keeping the output at 14.0V although de-rated some for summertime temps. 13.0 may be marginally charging, but seems a little low.
The crank pulley, or glazed and silently slipping belts are considerations, so your test with the white line is a good start. A spritz of water on the pulley while you're monitoring the voltage would help me know the alternator was being driven to speed. Just some ideas. I know you'll find it soon.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
I fired my masseuse today. She just rubbed me the wrong way.
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I checked the belts an pulleys while the car was off and running, with and without water. Everything looks good.
Could this possibly be an exciter wire issue? It occurs to me that I ran the oil pressure sender-to-gauge wire under the cranks pulley and maybe could have moved something enough to break insulation. If this *is* a possibility, where is the next connector on that wire (diagrams show one, but not the location and I'd rather not dig through a bunch of fragile oily wires if i don't need to)? If I can find the connector, I'll just bypass the red wire for awhile and see if the problem returns.
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I missed something before, interpreting the dimming lights as your head lights when you meant the warning lights. That changes my interpretation of what is happening.
You say you have a voltmeter? Where is it connected? If the warning lights come on, that is only possible when there's a voltage difference between B+ and D+ at the dash panel. The B+ is routed through that L-shaped connector, and I'm quite sure on a 93 it comes directly from the ignition switch.
Yama's suggestion to check the fuses was very applicable before 86 and the electronic clusters, because that ignition switched B+ used to come through fuse 13, so the lights would come on or dimly light when fuse 13 had corrosion on it. With the electronic cluster, the circuit is now fused on the cluster board. In your 93 it could even be a faulty ignition switch (try wiggling it).
However, a problem on the B+ side should also make you complain about gauges acting up, because that path is the supply for the speedometer, fuel, and temp gauges. If the flicker is echoed by symptoms in the gauges, B+ side of the lamps is suspect.
Your exciter wire (D+) is, I believe, different on a 93, or at least the late 93, in not having the gray firewall plug to connect through. I don't know if there is a junction. Late 93's are identified by the fuse block on the battery post.
If the wire is broken, I'd think it would be very near or at the terminal end. There is no place in its normal routing under the crank where it is subject to flexing, but it could be damaged if the insulation is breached. I think of that as more of a problem with the 81-87 harnesses, but certainly not out of the realm of possibility.
Anyhow, take a look at this charging circuit diagram, which attempts to inventory all the points where you can check for a voltage drop across connectors, fuses, and switches. Either the B+ to the cluster is failing (ignition switch side) or the D+ from the alternator is (red wire). Getting the test light or probe to those points while the lights are lit will tell you which it is.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.
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I'm afraid that this is getting beyond the admittedly tiny scope of my electrical knowledge, but I will attempt a look in the morning.
As for the connector, I looked at the car pretty well after I sent that last message with no luck. I guess mine is a late one. That makes things more difficult since I'd hate to cut into the wire if it is good.
For some reason the ignition switch occurred to me when this first happened. I fiddled with it then, but nothing seemed to change. But no, no gauges are affected at all.
And to answer your question, the voltmeter is just connected to the power at the cigarette lighter and grounded at the side of the console.
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OK, you've pretty well nailed it to the exciter wire.
That the voltmeter on fuse 1 is not dropping, and gauges not being affected, clear the B+ end of the warning lamp circuit. All that is left is that red wire from the alternator to pin 11 on the big round plug of the cluster.
Lacking the gray firewall plug of the older 240's, is a two-sided feature. No easy way to test without diving into the harness, but also not a place for a fault.
If mine, I would focus my search at the red wire connector end, right at the alternator, or the regulator's installation (how shiny are the ground and D+ contacts), before tearing into the wire beneath the crank pulley.
Try this: Have someone sit in the car and observe the lamp test (warning lights) with key on and motor off while you wiggle the red lead at the alternator.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
“The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place.” George Bernard Shaw
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Because I couldn't get the lights to flicker with the car in the garage last night, I decided to take it for a drive again. I also wanted to eliminate the possibility of a bad regulator since it was pretty new and unknown, so I used the one that was on the car when I got it (unbranded and worn, but not to the point of causing problems).
When I changed the regulator, I also checked and cleaned the contact between the regulator and the alternator housing and also the D+ connection.
Once again, I made it to the next town (6mi) without incident, but as soon as I got to it, the lights came on dimly. This says a couple things already:
-the car needs to get warm underhood temps for this to happen
-bumpy roads and stop/starts when cool have no effect
This time though, they did not change at all with rpm. They also never went off. From 6 to 15mi, through three engine on/off cycles and from 15 to 30mi (back home), the lights remained on steady dim.
When I got back, I had my wife sit in the car while I did my best at wiggling stuff right next to a really hot exhaust manifold. She said there was NO change at all in the lights. The one thing I didn't do that I wanted to was press on/wiggle the wires under the crank pulley (because the splash pan was on and I wasn't dressed to slide under and remove it.
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My impression now is you really are not sure whether the problem is in the red wire itself, or the alternator/regulator. With the heat factor, I might be tempted to blame it on the alternator. Because the charging is not affected, and the voltage doesn't dip, the rotor must continue to have enough magnetism to allow current to be produced by the stator. You could indeed bypass the cluster, red wire, and all that exciter nonsense by temporarily connecting a jumper between B+ output and D+. Just remember to remove it when you park the car or your battery will deplete. When you do this, remove the red wire connector, just in case it is the source of a short to ground.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Don't be irreplaceable. If you can't be replaced, you can't be promoted.
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Right, but due to lack of knowledge I don't know enough to even know whether the alternator itself CAN be the problem, particularly since output seems fine, and if it can, how to test it. I'm not saying that it absolutely can't be the wire, but it does seem like a different failure mode, doesn't it? I don't think I've said it before, but this car has 272k on it, so although I haven't replaced an alternator in other 240s, I wouldn't be too surprised if it has reached the end of its life.
What would I be looking for with a jumper between B+ and D+?
By "red wire connector," you mean the small one, correct?
All of this craziness is keeping me from replacing the blower motor which I was supposed to do this weekend! So far, I haven't decided if I'm happy for the forced procrastination or not...
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Yes, exactly. By testing with the jumper installed, you could take a ride and see if the problem returned. If not, you'd know the problem was external, in the small red wire circuit. To be completely safe, and sure, you'd leave that small red wire disconnected at the alternator. Just be sure to remove that jumper when you get home.
Unfortunately I just realized you would not know if the problem returned, because it does not manifest itself in any way except the red warning lights coming on. To check that end, you'd have to leave the small red wire connected, along with that jumper, so the warning lights would be normally off. Then, if they came on, you'd know the red wire had a break in it. However, if it had a short in it, the jumper from B+ would possibly cause a fire. So to backpedal, some, maybe your jumper should have a 1A fuse inline, or be a small light bulb test light like I use.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
Duct tape is like 'The Force'. It has a light side and a dark side, and it holds the universe together.
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Excellent! Thank you for the clarification. I now know exactly *what* to do if not *why* to do it, the latter of which is far more difficult to get into my thick skull.
You said earlier that the lights come on because of a difference between the B+ and the D+ output, right? So that means that via that jumper, I am equalizing that and taking internal alternator wiring out of the equation? If the issue is internal, I should get no lights because of the jumper. If it is a problem with the exciter wire I will still get the lights (and the bulb/fuse may blow). Do I have it [at least mostly] correct?
I should probably quit obsessing for the moment and actually start the grill for dinner, but I will definitely do this tonight or tomorrow (likely with a little bulb since I should have one on hand) and post back with the results.
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If you use a light bulb from B+ to D+ at the alternator, you are essentially duplicating the whole exciter circuit, dash warning lights and all. Of course, the problem is, you can't watch the test bulb while driving around, which is the only time this trouble rears itself. And the ignition switch doesn't turn it off.
When the alternator isn't turning, the D+ terminal is close to ground, so when you turn the key on, the warning lights are all tested from B+ to this ground.
The light bulb allows a small amount of current to magnetize the rotor, or "pre-excite" the alternator. Once the alternator starts turning, the three diodes in the D+ circuit are producing the current that energizes the field winding in the rotor (through the brushes) and 13.6V appears at the D+ terminal. With 13.6 on the D+ (made by the alternator) and 13.6 on the B+ terminal (also made by the alternator and sustained by the battery), there's no voltage to light the warning lamps.
I appreciate your patience. Most of us would have taken the durn thing to Autozone by now and become even more confused and possibly poorer in the process.
Oh, yeah, the grill. I forgot too.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.
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Thank you. That little bulb of understanding in my head is now glowing dimly (too).
I'm not sure it is as much patience as it is stubbornness - the once or twice I've taken a Volvo somewhere else to diagnose a problem, I've always returned with less (or more incorrect) information that I had before, so unless I am *completely* stuck and without help from internet Volvo geniuses such as yourself, I'd rather just soldier on. I get frustrated, but at least that way I know what was fixed and why.
The last time I went to Autozone for a test was just for a battery. They said it was fine. That led to more than a month of downtime on a car (either a 240 or '83 VW GTI - I forget which) while trying to figure out the issue. Finally I just bought a new battery - problem solved. It was at that point that I gave up on places like that.
Anyway, thank you for the help and the explanations! Hopefully this leads to a fix. That way I can have a clean slate to screw up when I start on the blower.
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Just an update:
It certainly seems temperature-related now. After dinner, I made up a little jumper with a bulb and took my wife to DQ for a delicious dessert treat. DQ is 10mi away, but the lights didn't come on at all on the way.
On the way back, I put on the a/c just to make the underhood temps warmer. After a big hill, they flashed and then came on dimly but went off before I could stop and put the jumper on (I wanted to wait until they were on before adding the jumper since many trips have happened with no lights at all and I wouldn't know if it was due to the jumper or just luck).
So no luck. I'll try again tomorrow.
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After a good bit of drive time today, I got the dash lights back on. Below are the findings. My jumper has a 194 bulb soldered in the middle - I'll include its behavior as well.
After 15or so mi:
-same behavior as yesterday
---lights flash once or twice then come on dim and stay on
---revving = no change
---stopping/restarting = no change
So I stopped in a parking lot and added the jumper since I knew the problem was happening
jumper on/red wire on/engine off (key on)
-dash lights normal (all lit at full bright)
-jumper light at full brightness
jumper on/red wire on/engine on
-dash lights dim
-jumper light dim
-revving makes both dimmer
jumper on/red wire OFF/engine off (key on)
-jumper light full bright
-limited dash lights (yes, I know this is because the red wire is off)
jumper on/red wire OFF/engine on
-jumper light dim
-revving has no effect on brightness
-dash lights off (again, just because red wire is off)
At this point, the problem became intermittent again, so there wasn't much I could do except watch it. Yep, something's wrong alright...
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jumper on/red wire OFF/engine on
-jumper light dim
-revving has no effect on brightness
-dash lights off (again, just because red wire is off)
At this point, the problem became intermittent again, so there wasn't much I could do except watch it. Yep, something's wrong alright...
So am I to read you saw the problem occur without the red wire involved? If so, the trouble is certainly in the alternator/regulator. What makes this a bit unusual is your output voltage doesn't seem to be affected. Lets back up for a moment: When did this start? Then you replaced the entire regulator/brush assembly?
By the way, nice choice for a test light - the 194. Can you share any hints about making one? Solder or socket? Clip ends? I've wanted to recommend this, but hesitate when it comes to suggesting a method.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.
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****So am I to read you saw the problem occur without the red wire involved? If so, the trouble is certainly in the alternator/regulator. What makes this a bit unusual is your output voltage doesn't seem to be affected.****
Yes. After a few seconds with the jumper, it became apparent that the bulb *should* go off and remain when the car is started... and it did- when the dash lights were working correctly. When they came on, the jumper light came on too - every time.
That being the case, I assume the problem remained when the red wire was removed, since the jumper bulb occasionally lit dimly. When possible, I double check buy attaching the red wire and running to the cluster. Each time, the cluster behaved just like the jumper bulb.
I too figured that since the problem exists when the red wire is not attached and with two different regulators, it *must* be the alternator. But I have triple and quadruple checked the voltage. It remains around 13.7V unless I turn EVERYTHING on.
**** Lets back up for a moment: When did this start? Then you replaced the entire regulator/brush assembly?****
This started a few weeks ago, in a downpour of rain, with the lights, wipers, a/c and defroster on. At that point, the dash lights just flashed a few times and then came on dimly. Nothing else was affected and the voltmeter didn't reflect the issue.
More than a week went by after that with no problems, but then it started again when my wife had it. When I got back in town I tried it and got the same result.
I checked the regulator/brush assembly even though it was new because that has always been the failure that I have experienced. But it looked good.
After posting here and checking the clusters, I thought back to the regulator, and changed it altogether to the older spare I had in the car. At that point, the lights seemed to be more likely to come on a stay on (as opposed to dimming with revs), but nothing else changed. Right now the old regulator is still in.
Does everything seem to *you* to point to the alternator? Is there something inside that could cause this problem without affecting voltage? Should I take it to a rebuild shop or just buy rebuilt from FCPGroton or the like?
I'm supposed to take this car on a vacation (8hrs away and for two weeks) on Saturday, so I'd like to get it fixed, though I guess I *could* take the... SAAB!
****By the way, nice choice for a test light - the 194. Can you share any hints about making one? Solder or socket? Clip ends? I've wanted to recommend this, but hesitate when it comes to suggesting a method.****
Ha! Why thank you. I straightened the contacts and soldered wire to each, then added screw-on alligator clips to the ends. It was just a quick way to make up the wire so I could do the test. My soldering is horrendous though, so next time I'm in the junkyard, I think I'll pick up a socket and use more permanent clips so I have a solid jumper.
EDIT: If it is consensus (read: if Art says) that I need an alternator, Advance auto has, with discounts, a unit for $55 that looks very much like the Bosch one. They list is as "Worldwide" and google shows it as "Remy". I'd prefer Bosch, but for $55, I think I'm going to give it a shot unless someone pipes up with a reason to not. FCP Groton has a rebuilt Bosch for ~$150. I don't know what a rebuild for mine would cost, but the more important issue is time- I don't have much. Thoughts?
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Yes, assuming your ground is in good shape, the problem must be internal.
If you can get a local rebuilder to fix an original Bosch, I'd think you'd be way ahead of the typical Autozone customer. Not sure if that could happen in the remaining few days; I'd likely try to get to one of the yards for a backup.
Don't judge the soldering challenge on that 194 bulb. The leads, meant to fold over its crimped glass base, are not friendly to solder.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Optimist - half full, Pessimist - half empty, Engineer - The capacity is twice what it needs to be.
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****If you can get a local rebuilder to fix an original Bosch, I'd think you'd be way ahead of the typical Autozone customer. Not sure if that could happen in the remaining few days; I'd likely try to get to one of the yards for a backup.****
I was afraid you'd say that. I'll try the rebuilder tomorrow and see what he says. If not, I might be stuck with Advance. The junkyards with any possibility of Volvo parts are all 2hrs away and the 245 is the car I'd have to take.
When I took the alternator off tonight, I found that the exciter wire may have been repaired in the past. The wire coming from under the engine was green and had a connector to about 5in of red wire. I'm considering finding the other end of the repair and replacing both connectors just in case, but I still don't think that could be the root of the problem considering the jumper behavior.
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Autozone or someone similar should carry the Bosch brand rebuilt alternator, this would be better than the generic AZ rebuild.
Dan
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Advance (which is like Autozone, but slightly more trustworthy, IMO) does have a Bosch rebuild, but it is $200+core and is different from what 240s use. The specs say it has an internal regulator. Maybe that is incorrect, but at the rate I've replaced those in otherwise good alternators, I'd much prefer an external.
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The specs say it has an internal regulator.
In this sense, I believe, yours also is "internal." The distinction here is between the combination brush/regulator like yours and the older method of mounting the regulator separately on the fender wall, with wires to the brush pack.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Don't accept your dog's admiration as conclusive evidence that you are wonderful.
-Ann Landers
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I have been following your thread, sorry you had a such a go of it.
For what it's worth I would go with the Bosch rebuild. I also had a problematical alternator problem on my 960. I was lucky, the local alternator/starter rebuild shop had a Bosch just like my bad one. The crusty old guy that owned the place,swapped mine for his rebuild and $80.00. It worked fine. I really hope this resolves your problem.
Good Luck
Fred
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Yes, the SRS light was completely due to the different cluster I think. It is off now and hasn't come back on. The idle is back to normal as well.
The flicker really has no pattern. Just now I drove the car for about 20mins. 10 in, at idle, the lights came on and acted as they do, dimming up to about 3000k where I couldn't see them anymore. as soon as the car shifts and the revs fall, they are back, BUT the whole cycle can stop or flash to full bright at any time.
I also commuted in the car 200+mi per day for four days after the problem first showed itself with no problem at all, though now the issue seems to show up more often.
I really only checked the damper on a whim - I find it REALLY hard to believe that both belts are slipping enough to cause a problem (but I'll check). And even if they were, wouldn't they just cause the battery light to come on?
FWIW, the headlights have never dimmed when the issue shows up - at least not that I can tell. The car seems to be charging just as it always did - even if that is a little low across the board.
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Have you ruled out dirty fuse connections and upgraded to the copper/brass ceramic type?
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The fuses and box look good, though I haven't done anything to them. Everything is shiny and I haven't had any other electrical issues at all.
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After reading the entire "conversation" with Art B., there is only a little to add. If, on a 1993 240, the exciter wire still (as in my '88 and older 240's) runs in a harness under the engine front, there could be a problem with insulation down there.
Is there any relationship with the flickers and engine acceleration, as in revving in neutral? That can move the block, which moves that under-engine harness a little (more with weak motor mounts). An insulation flaw that allows the exciter wire to touch a ground will light the warning lights, maybe just a flicker.
Can you run a by-pass exciter wire from the alternator to the a point that used to be the gray connector (someplace else on your 1993)? Disconnect the original exciter wire at the alternator and tape it.
Good Luck,
Bob
:>)
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Yes, that wire does go under the block. I have had a vague idea that the flickering is more likely to happen after revving but it hasn't happened enough for me to say with any certainty. It does seem to only happen when warm though for some reason.
I wanted to bypass that wire just to see, but it looks like my car doesn't have any sort of connector for it. That means finding it somewhere else and cutting, which I'm not keen on doing without knowing that it is the problem. Of course, if that is the best way to find out, I may end up doing it anyway...
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There is a rather large grey connector up high on the firewall near the center of the car that contains the red exciter wire. This is not likely the problem with a 93. Is the connection to the alternator clean and tight?
Dan
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I just checked my 93 and surprise to me there is no connector! I never noticed that before, sorry for the mis-information.
Dan
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No problem. I thought I was crazy when I couldn't find it, but I guess I'm not alone.
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