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Is An Old Volvo Green? 200 1985

Just musing here on a snow-day in Ohio...

I read recently that about 50% of the energy use associated with the life-cycle of a car is actually used to make the car. Then I thought about the Reduce, Reuse, Recycle mantra and how Reduce is mentioned first because it saves the most energy.

Does it not follow that my '85 244 that only gets about 25 mpg BUT which has REDUCED my need, over the last 25 years, to replace it with probably 2 or 3 new cars qualify it as green?

Dukester
'85 244 225K M46








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    Is An Old Volvo Green? 200 1985

    The answer is definitely yes, but maybe only one third of a million of them.

    There were 2,697,893 240s made (vlvworld.com). Primary colors were red, white, blue, green, gold, brown, silver, other (orange, yellow, grey, whatever). For simplicity, let's say each color was 1/8th of production. You do the math. Next question.
    --
    Dave -940's, prev 740/240/140/120 You'd think I'd have learned by now








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    Is An Old Volvo Green? Safety costs 200 1985

    Oh, and there's a direct environmental cost of safety also: the vehicle sustains more damage and requires more parts; those have to be manufactured, installed, painted - and the old parts disposed of. A sharp accountant could tell us what the total (monetary and environmental) cost is - if say collision repair costs double (in real $s) every 10 years.

    Of course no one would say safety wasn't important - although those of us who drive 240s should know they're not as safe as newer cars. So we are in fact making a choice.

    Increased repair costs help insurance companies, car & parts manufacturers, the national auto-body shop industry lobby, the association of paint & solvent producers, more.

    The insurance companies are the 1st to say "you can't put a value on human life". Which is funny because that's what they do. Every day. It's called Actuarial Science.
    --
    240s: 2 drivers and some parts cars








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    Is An Old Volvo Green? 200 1985

    You should be able to do the math on this one, with some qualitative adjustments. And you have to define "green" of course. Google "define green" to see just how much disagreement there really is - even among green folks. Look at a transcript from one of the ecology conferences to see how little quant is involved in deciding what's important.

    And you really should include safety. GM said at one point that a new car (say 2000) was 1000-lbs heavier than it would have to be because of the safety equipment. Yeah, GM has a bias. But it's still likely to be heavier & so takes more fuel to move. But human life is important and injuries have an impact on the environment - medical equipment, chemical waste, etc.

    I keep or help keep several 240s on the road. They didn't qualify as clunkers during the 2008 government program. 22-26 MPG isn't very good these days. The emissions are probably high relative to mid-2000s cars. I don't drive much.

    Would I be a better carbon citizen if I traded the 240 on a new car? I have trouble believing that the environment would be better served by my adding a car to the driving pool. But, again, it would take a lot of math.

    Net though, I don't kid myself by believing that I'm doing the world an environmental favor in my 240. I drive it because it's cheap & reliable; and it can be banged up and not look too trashy.

    For the record, I think I'm contributing more by not spending $100s each Xmas at Wal-Mart et al for things that people will discard in a few months. 1/2 of some retail sales are between Thanksgiving & Xmas. I'd probably look there, at the clothing industry worldwide, and at America's pathetic public transport systems before I worried about folks driving around in 240s.

    And, same as you, I'm staying inside in the OH snow.
    --
    240s: 2 drivers and some parts cars








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    Is An Old Volvo Green? 200 1985

    I don't know where the myth of re-use came from as applied to automobiles. The danger from old cars is not mitigated by the fact "it's already built". The danger is emissions. The carbon monoxide standard for a car built in the early 1970's was about 2.5% of exhaust gas volume. For a modern car, 2010 model, Volvo, Honda, Toyota etc. it's about .001%. Big difference. So your old car will produce the same CO as about 2500 new cars. For HC and NOx it's about the same.
    I'm not opposed to older specialty vehicles - my work depends on them. However they should be maintained carefully to keep their emissions as low as possible. But there is no way that they can be made as clean as today's standards. Keep old vehicles because they are interesting and fun, but not because they serve some "green" purpose.








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      Is An Old Volvo Green? 200 1985

      It's true that the greenie-weenie folks driving around in old VW's aren't running the slightest bit "green". No cats and the invariably poorly tuned engine makes for foul emissions.

      However, I don't think early 1970's data apply when considering 240's. Once you get O2 sensors and cat converters (pretty much all 240's), the equation changes quite a bit.

      Just compared my 5-spd 1990 245 to a current V70 on the EPA's site, and the "carbon footprint" is identical at 8.9 tons of CO2 per year. The '85 245 actually scored a little better.

      So is an old Volvo green? Kinda. Hard to measure, though. The 240 might already be built, but it requires spare parts being constantly made.

      Another thing to consider is what happens when you don't keep the old cars running. Scrapping all the electrical stuff is dirty business.

      -Ryan








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        Is An Old Volvo Green? 200 1985

        I was speaking of carbon monoxide. The carbon dioxide emissions go up as the efficiency of the engine increases, because CO2 is the result of perfect combustion. As well it's not a toxin regardless of what the idiot Al Gore or the EPA says. And of course if four people travel in the car they make as much CO2 as the car. CO is a deadly toxin and the result of imperfect combustion. So it makes sense that the newer car emits a bit more CO2. Not a problem.
        Recycling of old cars is quite a science in itself, and can be done very efficiently and with little pollution. It's how the Japanese and Koreans do it as they have little in the way of iron ore.








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          Is An Old Volvo Green? 200 1985



          Lots of CO is getting scrubbed by the cat converter. I'll argue that a 240 with a functioning emissions system is doing at least OK with carbon monoxide. They left the factory with a buttload of catalyst in the converters... of course old or replacement aftermarket cats won't do nearly as well... many folks are running older O2 sensors, too, which doesn't help either.

          Still, going by the numbers, federal CO emission limits on cat converter fitted gas cars haven't changed that dramatically in the last 20 years. So, there's simply no way a newer 240 spits out as much CO as 2500 modern cars. Worst case is more like 2 to 4 modern cars.

          As for recycling, it's true that the big stuff gets sorted pretty well, but recycling the electronic parts is a dirty, dirty business. Everybody sends that stuff places where the environmental laws are non-existent. Even in the US it's cheaper to send stuff off to be recycled than it is to even consider how to do it properly.

          -Ryan








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    Is An Old Volvo Green? 200 1985

    Indeed, I think driving an old Volvo can be a good part of a Green lifestyle. I think the more miles that are on one makes it greener still- everyday it is reuse, reuse, reuse. No new energy is used to produce new vehicles for my family, and as long as I can keep them safe and on the road no energy is used to recycle them either.

    I try to keep all of our Volvos in good tune. While SW Ohio no longer has the eCheck it was not difficult to keep the cars legal with a little time and effort along with help from the Brickboard.

    I recycle all of the used fluids they generate. With my eye to safety I try to squeeze all the mileage I can out of the fuel they burn and the tires they wear.

    I buy project cars that normally might have gone to the crusher and make every effort to return them to the road. When I purchase a car that is beyond reasonable hope (or actually drive it to that point) I strip off what useable parts I can in hopes of using them to save another needy Volvo.

    Perhaps the greenest part of my efforts end up in my wallet :-)

    Randy








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    Is An Old Volvo Green? 200 1985

    I say YES.

    I say Longer Cycle times on All equipment and appliances is Greener then the New Gas efficient/ Electric efficient appliances that last 5 years then have to be very costly and inefficient to break down through recycling to make another 5 year piece of junk.
    The Gov't and big companies enjoy the constant Sales of this junk. Has nothing to do with 'Green'
    --
    '75 Jeep CJ5 345Hp ChevyPwrd, two motorcycles, '85 Pickup: The '89 Volvo is the newest vehicle I own. it wasn't Volvos safety , it was Longevity that sold me http://home.lyse.net/brox/TonyPage4.html








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    Is An Old Volvo Green? 200 1985

    Hi,


    How many miles in a typical life cycle for a modern recall car? 100k? Remeber, Chrystler recalled 350K minivans today because of ‘‘Accidental’’ airbag deployment, which is just perfect for taking the kids to school. Recall Notice

    If you’ve gone 200k then the energy used to make your old car becomes substantially less significant, thereby reducing your green effect with every mile.

    I found that my 1977 Volvo 264 GL with it’s refurbished B23F engine puts out substantially less emissions then a new car, and esspecialy those here in Albuquerque, who have forgotten what maintenance is, through primarily financial functions.

    I Failed My Emission Test (Goal) - Don’t Make the Same Mistake!

    The above may be only true for me, and I expect your car might choke the neighbors newborn verily. Some auto aficionados have nothing but disdain for emissions output, as they are only interested in the fast and flash of a joke mobile (see carburetor). When the pretty little fake plastic cracks they have a tantrum and call it an atrocity, instead of worrying about the who and what of others as they drive.

    So to answer your question, is your old Volvo green? - You tell me!


    Goatman








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      Is An Old Volvo Green? 200 1985

      I don't really think you can say that all new cars fall apart after 100K miles. Sure, there are some iffier models, and some iffier brands, but in general, there are a lot of really well built cars these days that will go to 250K miles with regular maintenance. Accords, Camry's - dead reliable and pretty frugal on gas.

      Way back in the day, Volvo was somewhat above the curve in terms of reliability and durability, but the rest of the world has caught up over time. A big part of the credit goes to the EPA - IIRC cars have to pass certain emissions tests after 100K miles, and if too many cars flunk the manufacturer might have to undertake an expensive recall. So that in and of itself has forced manufacturers to build the cars a little better.

      Now I like my Volvo's, both of them ('63 PV, '93 245) but really, our 2 4Runner toyotas (wife '96, my '99, both V6 5 spd manual 4WD's) seem to be a lot mroe reliable. nothing ever goes wrong. We bought my wifes at 107K, now it has 227K, and the only non-maintenance thing that has happened the entire time is a bad rear wheel bearing. And it's not an uncommon story - people routinely put 250, 350, 450K miles on them. And they do that with less fuss than a 240 Volvo does.
      --
      '63 PV544 rat rod, '93 Classic #1141 245 (now w/16V turbo)








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        Is An Old Volvo Green? 200 1985

        I agree. I've Driven mostly Volvos since the 1970s. Back then there were a few others (eg. MB Diesels) that would soar past 100K miles but most cars were falling apart around 50K and required high-maintenance - plugs every 10K miles, disc pads every 15K, new bias tires every 20K.

        But now lots of cars go the distance. We did 300K in a Corolla; a friend has 300+ on a Ford Ranger; another has 250K on a Geo metro; another w/ 240K on a Neon; my old farm Toyota pickup had 300K _+; blah blah.

        I'm helping a friend buy a newer car right now. Toyota & Subaru are are at the top of the list but if we find a deal on a Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Nissan, .... we'll be take it. Most "good" vehicles sold today should make 250K with little effort.
        --
        240s: 2 drivers and some parts cars








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          Is An Old Volvo Green? 200 1985

          Not very green, but still somewhat comparable to European cars of the same size. On LPG it makes approx. 190 g/km CO2, on petrol 240. A 2006 V70 (basic petrol handshift) made 214 g/km, the 2008 version did 172 g/km (probably due to test-dodging). Small diesels can drive around for ca. 100 g/km.

          Driving it long time won't make it greener either. I found two number for CO2 emissions during production, one says 20 ton/car, VW and Renault estimate 4,5-6 ton/car. Last figure is more recent and prob. more accurate.
          A 240 that drove 200.000 miles on petrol has already produced 64 tons of CO2.







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