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I went to my sisters on Saturday.
>changed out the plugs (now she has better performance).
>"Steam-cleaned" her out with seafoam fuel treatment.
>checked the hoses for any issues.
>checked for exhaust leaks.
Drove her home (roughly a bit over an hour), and she performed beautifully!
Today I drove around town, took Tami to the vet, then went to smog the car.
SHE FAILED HORRIBLY! GROSS POLLUTER! In fact, the numbers went up.
I think it is now time for the catalytic converter.
So, I was directed to eEuroparts.com by somebody here (sorry, I can't recall your name) and found these:
http://www.eeuroparts.com/main/partsresults.aspx
Now, I just need to find out if she has EGR or not. AND if she has a FIXED TRIANGLE FLANGE. So, I called my local Volvo dealer. Terry tried to look up the information with the VIN#, but was unable to. So, he said to bring her in. Tomorrow I will be taking her into the service center to see what she has so I can order the right part.
I think we pretty much tried everything gang and it is the cat.
Rosy in California
1990 240DL
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So, the tech from Volvo called me this morning. He wanted the car overnight to do some testing while she is cold. And here is what she needs:
- cat converter (1432 for volvo or 520 universal)
- engine air filter (25)
- distributor cap and wires (240)
- AMM (593)
- Wax air door (222)
I would also get 15% off due to her age. These quoted prices include parts and labor.
Well, I have a job interview at noon (wish me luck!), which I need a car to get to if I get the job. I am now thinking I should prolly just sell her and get something else as it will be very hard to afford the $1700 in repairs she needs in order to just pass California smog! ARGH! Although, I did only get her for $300. Including what I paid for her, dmv and the other things I have done, I have only put roughly $550 into her. My tags expire 11/2. What to do...
Rosy
90 240 DL
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You and your sister can do the air filter [part about $12] and the distributor cap and wires yourself. Get parts at a foreign auto supply, phone first so you don't waste time running around town. A cat is difficult to replace yourself. You may be able to locate a used Air Mass Meter from a similar model at a salvage yard. No guarantee it is good. Sometimes the connector/contacts go bad and cleaning your plug with electrical contact cleaner will help. But the AMM gets fried because the air door fails in the open position allowing hot air to constantly enter the air intake. In a mild climate like the Bay area you don't need to replace the air box thermostat. Since you need to acces it when you replace the air filter you can simply seal it off. It is the circular hole at the bottom of the air box. Remove the frame that holds the thermostate, take the round plastic "door" and some metalic tape [duct tape doesn't hold up under heat] and close off the hole. Lave the round silver duct in place, the smog people look for that but they don't open the air box and check the round door.
Me: I would replace the cat. professionally, filter myself, block the air box,then have it smog checked before I replace the AMM. Sometimes without excess heat the AMM may work again.
Did you just purchase this car? Calif law requires the SELLER to obtain the smog certification and although buyers and sellers frequently do, this responsibility cannot be traded by the seller. CA has a "seller take care" legal approach in this respect because the seller may not honestly disclose what s[he] already knows.
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Here is what the CA law says:
When a car is sold, who is responsible for the inspection?
The seller is required to provide the buyer with a valid smog inspection certification at the time of the sale or transfer. Smog certifications are good for 90 days from the date of issuance.
The inspection is not required on a transfer if a biennial smog certification was submitted to DMV within 90 days prior to the vehicle transfer date (a vehicle inspection report may be required for proof of certification).
NOTE: Smog certifications are not required for transfers that occur for a gasoline powered motor vehicle that is four or less model years old. (Determine the oldest-qualifying year model by subtracting three from the current year) the four or less model years old rule does not apply to diesel powered vehicles. A smog transfer fee will be collected from the new owner.
What if my car fails the inspection?
DMV cannot provide technical information or advice in this area. We recommend that you call the Bureau of Automotive Repair (BAR) toll free number at 800-952-5210. You may be eligible to participate in the Voluntary Accelerated Vehicle Retirement Program (also known as the old vehicle buy back program).
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If the engine idles and runs (drives) fine there is nothing wrong with the AMM. The stealership is taking the shotgun approach to solve this problem.
Order bougicord wires, Bosch cap and rotor and a Mann airfilter ($60 or so) from FCPGroton.com. Bypass the air box thermostat and have your low bid muffler shop replace the Cat Converter.
Dan
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Hi,
Yes, I just bought the car from a man in Sacramento for $300.
I will scan the findings and place a link to them on here.
I know my sister and I can do most of the work. I found a place that will do the cat for $260, including parts, labor and tax.
It's just really hard in this economy right now and it does hurt here because I don't have a job yet. All the income I receive is from disability, which isn't much.
Oh, she needs the works on the cap, rotor and wires. They obviously didn't check the plugs, we just changed them!
ARGH!
Rosy
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You can find the results here:
http://picasaweb.google.com/rosyjazz1/Volvo#5530248743009477154
Rosy
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Aaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnd the sister pipes in. . .
this does seem to be a case of "I cant explain why this is failing, so replace *everything*" However, the cat did test as non-op. Rosy, when you come by, let me look at the mounting for the cat. I may be able to do that too. (from the descriptions I have seen it is a flange in front, and a clamp in back, which I should have no problems with). So this "Hot air door" is in the bottom of the airbox? I'll have to take a look at how that is set up. I may be able to block that off for now, and fix it properly later. cap, rotor, and wires are cake, and these look original. . .
Oh, and I'll be happy to grab the parts at kragen and charge you those Volvo prices. . . Sheeesh! What on earth are they smoking?!?
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Hello Sister,
Also check for ANY vacuum leaks, around the intake and seals and such.
Goatman
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Could someone please post a picture of this hot air door that you are saying is on the bottom air box? I'd like to know what I'm going to be sealing upwhen I get in there, in case I have to.
The stealership said that the MAF (AMM) was damaged by the constant hot air hitting it. How realistic is that? On a Subaru (my vehicle of choice) if the MAF is bad the car runs like and this Volvo is not exhibiting anything like that.
The stealership also said they did an invasive test of the cat and found no function. With the tiny size of the cat on this car I can imagine easily that it is just worn out, particularly as we have no idea what kind of fuel was used in the car for the 200K miles before we got it. . .
I take engines apart fairly frequently, due to a bit of poor engineering on Subaru's part in the mid 90's, so the repairs on this Volvo should not be a problem for me. Just an unfamiliar car is all.
On a side note: the stealership said the ignition timing was not adjustable, but this car has a distributor. Are they smoking crack again or is this distributor not adjustable?
My sister lives a good 50 miles from me so I do not get to look at the car unless she drops by.
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The assumption the AMM (MAF) is damaged because of the failed airbox thermostat is probably policy at the Volvo dealership. All the suppliers I deal with force you to buy a new t-stat if you want a warranty on their AMM. So, my take on it is the assessment of the AMM is strictly CYA. Expensive CYA.
My recommendation is to find a used one -- you're looking for an -016 if this 1990 is LH2.4 as I believe I saw somewhere. The -016 is also used in some 7/9 series cars if you can look in the yards. The only 90's 240 exception is for manual tranny models, some got LH3.1, and I think that was for California once they stopped making two emissions versions.
Even if you don't get one for the emissions hurdle, get one for a spare, at leisure, so you won't pay through the nose. Check ebay and classifieds here. Once you have a used one, you can compare, and substitution is about the only way we can know if these AMMs are any good if they're not totally dead. Same for the dealer techs, if any of them still retain the old knowledge -- substitution is the criterion. I suspect the good techs from the 80's and 90's already left and started their own independent shops. You'd think the dealer would be the place to find expertise, but that may not be true any longer for these older cars.
They are right about the timing not being adjustable. The ignition timing reference is magnetic at the crank (a ring around the flywheel/flex plate with index holes) and all adjustments are made by the ignition computer at the passenger's toes. The distributor will have a plastic insert in its hold-down tab to keep it locked where it is.
Also I have to recommend you change the intake manifold gasket rather than trying to prove it's good with propane, carb cleaner, or stethoscope. It is cheap, easy to replace (just undo one support arm and fold back the manifold), and if original, almost certainly leaking.
The airbox door was the most surprising of the Volvo suggestions to me. Surprising because of the price of it. The only parts that fail are the wax thermostat and the bit of poly foam around the door's circumference. I would fix with a nail, but you're in California, where they look at things like that more seriously. Here are some photos of how it works. A snap ring tool makes removing the door a "snap." http://cleanflametrap.com/airbox.html
Anything you do, be sure to check the OBD codes before and after. Clear the computer's adaptive memory by momentarily removing the 25A blade fuse under the hood, and drive for about 10 miles to get it "learned" again. I always do this before taking the car for emissions testing, having no gas analyzer to build confidence, I have to trust the fuel computer.
I am beginning to realize owning a 240 is no longer economically feasible unless you're able to do your own work. That dealer report truly did me in!
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
A chicken crossing the road is poultry in motion.
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"...So this "Hot air door" is in the bottom of the airbox? I'll have to take a look at how that is set up."
• Thermostat in air box is supposed to control the door, allowing warmed air for just the first few minutes of cold-running. T-stat fails, letting continuous hot air hit the AMM. A known problem area. You could block it off, but maybe put in a new duct from the manifold so the testers don't get curious. (It's an emissions thing.) No effect on normal starting or running.
"On a side note: the stealership said the ignition timing was not adjustable, but this car has a distributor. Are they smoking crack again or is this distributor not adjustable?"
• That's right, since '89 on 240s. Timing is handled by the Ignition Control Unit (ICU). Pretty much a rock-solid system.
FYI, here's a Start-run sequence I put together:
Start-Run Sequence Bosch LH2.4 FI
1) During starter cranking, the Crank Position Sensor sends timing pulses to Ignition Control Unit (ICU, Bosch EZ-116K)
2-a) The ICU uses these CPS pulses to trigger the Power Stage (aka Ignition Amplifier), which initiates spark from the coil. (PS module mounted on heat sink, left front inner fender)
2-b) At the same time, The ICU also propagates the pulses to the FI ECU, to allow FI operation (no ICU pulses means no FI operation).
3-a) The Fuel Injection (System)* relay (previously energized at Key On) powers the AMM, IAC, ECU, Injectors, and Fuel (pump) relay coil + side.
* The System relay is in the white case, along with the Fuel relay (near ECU)
3-b) When ICU pulses are received by the FI ECU, it "energizes" the Fuel relay by grounding the relay coil (– side) to run the fuel pumps.
When all these things work, the engine runs until the Ignition is switched off, which in turn shuts down the FI system.
Determining whether or not there is spark at the plugs (2a) — and whether or not the plugs are getting gas (3b) — makes a good no-start "starting" point.
For example, if 2a fails due to a bad Power Stage/Amplifier, there will be a no-start with gas-wet plugs. If 2b fails (practically never) symptoms will be Fuel-related: a no-start with spark at the plugs, but plugs remain dry.
• On the '85-'93 240, jumpering the LEFT side contacts of fuses 4 and 6 will bypass both the 25A blade fuse near the coik (or fuse #6 on '91-'93) and the Fuel relay—and will power up both pumps immediately.
--
Bruce Young, '93 940-NA (current), 240s (one V8), 140s, 122s, since '63.
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Hi,
That is very realistic. The airflow meter damaged by hot air. Was that corrugated metal hose attached?
Goatman
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Hello,
I wish I could get $240 dollars for changing a distributor cap. :)
Goatman
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Goatman,
Don't forget, theirs $15 in parts. How about $222 to change out the thermostat in the air box. Air box thermostat $8 and the rest is profit. Ok, so their some overhead built in their to, but. I think were in the wrong business. Total cost of parts excluding the cat should be around $325. And with the exception of the cat their's nothing Rosy and/or her sister couldn't do.
My two cents,
Ron J
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Ron,
The thermostat in the airbox is not the reason the car failed emissions.
Goatman
PS.
I don't think if Rosy paid $2000 they could get it to pass, because it's really hard to check for air leaks! ;)
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Goatman,
You may have a point their.
RonJ
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Thanks for posting back - a lot of us are interested to know what it will take to get it to pass. Another post directed you to the CA smog website. There is a dollar limit you need to spend, if that doesn't help you get an exemption as a gross polluter. Trouble is, I think you must repeat the proce$$ every 2nd year which is a pain, but check on the time limit. It sounds like you plan on keeping the car. If it were mine, I would find a professional who is certain the cat. is the problem, have him [her] put on the work order [or you can even write it down before you sign at the bottom] that this repair will correct the problem causing it to fail the CA emissions test. In other words, let the mechanic know you are not just interested in replacing parts, you need to solve a specific problem. If the work order says "replace cat converter" that is all you can hold them accountable for; if you are paying to solve a specific problem you should expect the problem to be solved.
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Hi Everyone,
Well, I took her into Volvo this morning. I got a call about an hour ago on the progress and so far he hasn't found anything to cause it to fail smog. I am just really confused and don't understand what is going on with the car. Hopefully, by the evening I will.
I shall post the results.
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Rosy,
Where did you get this car? Out of state?
Ron J
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No. I got it in Sacramento.
Rosy
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I ask because if this car was originally sold in Ca. then it probably has EGR. And if I'm not mistaken the seller has to show that the vehicle will pass a smog inspection or disclose to the buyer that their is a problem. Their is a State of California web site the might help: http://www.bar.ca.gov/applications/VehTests/PubTstQry.aspx that may help.
With the work that you have done your test results should be getting better not worse even if they are not good enough. Their are other things that can cause hi numbers other than vacuum leaks, such as timing being advance to much, but I don't think so because the timing in electronically controlled. Then theirs the possibility that a/previous owner removed the matrix in the cat completely leaving you with just a shell.
Scratching head,
Ron J
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Hi Ron,
I tried to go to the website, but I received a configuration error message.
Rosy
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Ok, lets try bar.ca.gov . Then click on "Find Vehicle Smog Test History". That should work.
Ron J
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Rosy, I know this will not be of much help, but move out of CA! If you don't, you'll have to buy a Chevy Volt via government mandates.
jorrell
--
92 245 291K miles, IPD'd to the hilt, 06 XC70, 00 Eclipse custom Turbo setup...currently taking names and kicking reputations!
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NO! move out of the U.S. because if things don't change in November for us all, our president is going to merge with Bentley and build one car that all of us have to drive.....mandatory, all painted green. I think they are naming the car the Barocolli! I just made that up! What do you think?
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Jorrel,
Did you look at the numbers? California is not the problem.
Goatmamn
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Hello,
If your numbers are that off, you have an engine problem.
A catalytic converter is not meant to eliminate such a quantity of pollution.
Did you check the intake for air leaks? I’ve asked you this three times now!
Please post compression test results.
Goatman
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Hi Goatman,
Here is the report:
http://picasaweb.google.com/rosyjazz1/Volvo#5529568109580732210
My sister did check the intake for leaks. However, she will check it again next time I see her. When I go into Volvo tomorrow, I will see if they can take a quick look-see at it.
Rosy
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Rosy,
My 1983 Volvo Engine passed initially with 135 ppm HC with a half melted catalytic. I took the test after installing new piston rings.
Goatman
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