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This car has had back end lighting issues before. The reverse lights were blowing their fuse and i unplugged them to regain the turn signals. Now the tail lights don't work and are blowing fuse 15. i replaced bulbs but no luck. I don't know where the other tail light fuse is off hand but none of the other fuses looked blown. the bulb failure light used to come on everytime the lights were on, it no longer does.
The brake lights have been intermitent since i purchased the vehical last summer and for the most part have resorted to not working entirely. I don't think the fogs work either on top of all that. any suggestions?
thanks in advance for any advice, i know there is alot to possibly check.
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1990 245 DL in Denver, CO
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Fuse 15 also powers the license plate lights.
License plate lights plus center brake light plus rear defrost wires run through the left tailgate hinge. If either wire is bare then activating the brake or defrost can blow a fuse. They also can short out against each other etc. etc.
My guess is that the wires in left side of the tailgate hinge are worn and shorting out on the hinge. Quite likely, the right side hinge wires are also worn. We have two '89's and I did the tailgate wires on both of them about 2-3 years ago.
There are some recent threads here on replacing those wires.
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Sven: '89 245 NA, 951 ECU, expanded air dam, forward belly pan reaches oem belly pan, airbox heater upgraded, E-fan, 205/65-15 at 50 psi, IPD sways, no a/c-p/s belt, E-Codes, amber front corner reflectors, aero front face, quad horns, tach, small clock.
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I replaced the harness (both of them) with a junkyard harness a few months ago, the original one was chopped clean at the hinges. Since it was used off a wrecked '92 I don't place trust in its condition. I will definately make sure to check it out.
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1990 245 DL in Denver, CO
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Hi Ian,
Common trouble is the wires get chafed and short out in the tailgate hinge. The fuse 15 supplies the tag lights. Check first a tag light isn't loose and shorting out because that's far easier to fix than the tailgate harness if it is cold by you.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
Don't find fault, find a remedy. (Henry Ford)
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Would the left light being out effect the right tail light? you mentioned it was on fuse 16, it didn't look cooked but i might not have been paying close enough attention. I'll check in on the tailgate tommorow when it gets up to the mid day high temp.
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1990 245 DL in Denver, CO
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If the short occurs in the tail light circuit, and not the tag light or front corner light, it can overheat the bulb-out sensor coil, shorting those two circuits to each other. That's one way the left circuit can affect the right. In all other circumstances there should be no crossover.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
A banker is someone who lends you an umbrella when the sun is shining, and who asks for it back when it starts to rain.
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[ignore - see art's comments above and below]
Hate to say that you're going to have to check the grounds and trace the wires back. One weird culprit - if your center hand-brake console is in poor shape, the wiring that supplies the back-seat floor light is on the same circuit.
Long story short - the small plastic cubby in a previous 1992 244 was temporarily removed and papers and things got shoved in there. Something caught one of the wires and the connector touched the frame, which shorted out the fuse and took out one side of the rear brake lights with it. Some cops in a small town were kind enough to tell me about it after making sure all my paperwork was in order.
May or may not be of help for you, but one place to look.
Cheers,
Zach
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if your center hand-brake console is in poor shape, the wiring that supplies the back-seat floor light is on the same circuit.
That is the other tail light fuse Ian was questioning. # 16.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
The reason a dog has so many friends is that he wags his tail instead of his tongue. -Anonymous
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I disconnected the liscence plate lights and the fuse still blew, I looked at the ground on the left hand tail light assembly and it was connected and didn't seem loose. What else is there to check?
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1990 245 DL in Denver, CO
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I disconnected front left parking lamp, also the tag lights from under the headliner and still blew 15. Looking at this the reverse lights seem to be intermingled, I have the reverse lights disconnected at the fuse box, would this have anything to do with it? I wouldn't think so but I am honestly in the dark with this stuff (quite literally).
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1990 245 DL in Denver, CO
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My suspicion is that there's a short to ground, or a short to another power wire, located somewhere in the positive side if the circuit, before the bulbs in question.
That's why you're still finding problems after removing the bulbs.
I don't recall the details of your response to the hinge wiring discussion. I'd first suspect a short there.
I also think that a multitester would be real helpful in sorting this out. There's only so much you can learn by removing bulbs and/or fuses and observing the results.
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Sven: '89 245 NA, 951 ECU, expanded air dam, forward belly pan reaches oem belly pan, airbox heater upgraded, E-fan, 205/65-15 at 50 psi, IPD sways, no a/c-p/s belt, E-Codes, amber front corner reflectors, aero front face, quad horns, tach, small clock.
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Tailgate hinges do not seem to be the issue unfortunately. I agree that a multitester would help, although i don't have one currently, nor do i know how to use one yet. I suppose its time to learn.
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1990 245 DL in Denver, CO
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Tailgate hinges do not seem to be the issue unfortunately.
Ian, how did you arrive at this conclusion? Did you separate the connector above the headliner? If you did and the fuse still blows, I would call myself fortunate if I were in your shoes. Do tell what you've discovered, and we can take you through this without going out to find a multimeter.
Do you have any rust in the rocker panels or floor boards?
Did it blow fuses while the bulb out sensor was removed?
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
Buy my underwear at K-Mart, 400 Oak Street, Cincinnati, Ohio. Yeah.
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Pulled the fail sensor and i got a resounding *pop* from fuse 15 again. I catch on a little slow but this leads me to believe that the short is isolated between the sensor and the fuse?
thanks for everyones help and patience.
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1990 245 DL in Denver, CO
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Good work. You've eliminated the tail gate harness with the separation of the connector above the headliner, and you've eliminated all the tail light wiring by removing the BFWS (Bulb Failure Warning Sensor), leaving only the wiring to the left parking light.
If I had done this, I would double check by doing the following.
1) disconnect the tail gate harness if not already done.
2) remove BFWS if not still out
3) Pull apart the gray plug behind the left headlight - has a green and a white wire.
Then try to sacrifice another fuse, although I would use a test light as I mentioned before.
Continuing, if there's still a mystery, the wires attaching to the fuse panel at #15 right-side can be disconnected and separated. I haven't done this personally, so I don't know whether two or three wires can be easily detached there.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
I don't feel old. I don't feel anything until noon. Then it's time for my nap. - Bob Hope
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With this last check you recomend what would be the outcome that i would want? Blowing the fuse to affirm its the front corner lamp, or not blowing the fuse? last time i pulled the plug on the corner light assembly the fuse still blew, albiet with the bulb failure sensor still in.
now for the real stupid question... if its definately the front corner light, how do i fix it? or at least rig it to where i can have the tail lights back so i can drive it at night again.
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1990 245 DL in Denver, CO
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Ian, if you've already pulled that plug, pulled the BFWS, and pulled the connector for the tailgate harness with no improvement, you've eliminated every legitimate load at the end point. If I did that, I might be skeptical of my methods and repeat all three at once, just to show I could still have the short with all those loads disconnected. Again, I suggest double checking, because my own mistakes are just as likely as many other causes, but with my method of using a test light I am not expending fuses at a high rate.
There's one more place you can divide the harness - at the plug referenced by "E" on the drawing. It is a rectangular plug near the driver's toe. After that, only the spade connectors on the rear of the fuse panel are available for elimination troubleshooting.
Stepping back in this unlikely scenario, are there any mods we aren't aware of such as keyless entry, alarm, trailer lighting, etc., that may change the picture the wiring diagram presents?
If it is the front corner light, is there a reason you might suspect, like a problem with the socket or previous collision damage? I'd just disconnect it until I could remove and repair it.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
The cardiologist's diet: If it tastes good spit it out. - Unknown
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I've double checked, all things unplugged and no luck. my next fall back is to try and disconnect from the fuse itself.
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1990 245 DL in Denver, CO
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I made progress. at fuse 15 i disconnected the middle connector, single white wire. After this i regained both tail lights.
front parking lamps are out, plate lamps are out. But I'll take it.
thanks for the advice and patience from everyone.
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1990 245 DL in Denver, CO
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no mods of that nature that i know of have ever been done. the PO got clipped in the front left corner, leaving a large dent in that area. The headlight bracket was broken and after i purchased the car i replaced it. before the bracket replacement the corner light assembly was held in with a wire. i didnt do the final check of unplugging the bulb failure AND the front corner light AND the tailgate harness, not yet. This car has given me many a problem i would not have expected; failing everything else I will check the plug and take an even closer look at the spade connectors at the fuse box.
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1990 245 DL in Denver, CO
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I did take the connector out from under the headliner, i have not tried with the bulb sensor out. that will be next. I swapped bulb out sensors and fuse blew with both.
i tried with the tag lights disconnected and the front left parking lamp disconnected.
there is little to no rust in the car.
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1990 245 DL in Denver, CO
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I swapped out the bulb out sensor with a spare, didnt help. I will check the front parking lamp. Hopefully we can fix this before I run out of fuses. I disconnected the plate lamps in the tailgate, and not under the headliner, so i will attempt that as well.
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1990 245 DL in Denver, CO
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Last time this happened to me in my 86 sedan it ended up being the bulb failure sensor (big red round).
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Whoops. I stand corrected.
Thanks for correcting the record, Art.
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Hi Zach,
Sure it was wishful thinking on your part. How much easier is it to sort out a short inside the warm car than take apart the tailgate in mid-winter. Tag lights are so important around here - it is always "probable cause" when they don't work.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
High Speed Chase (Car Talk Puzzler)
RAY: This puzzler was submitted by Chuck Leyderer. Chuck writes, "Sargent O'Malley and his rookie assistant Ned are just pulling out of the local donut shop. They get a call on the radio that the town north of them has had a bank robbery. The suspects are proceeding south, and it's a high-speed chase.
"The chase has been going on for 40 minutes, and O'Malley and Ned should be on the lookout for a yellow Mustang with two men in the front seat and a woman in the back. The State Police were in hot pursuit, but they lost them right as they were headed towards Centerville, where O'Malley and Ned work.
"What should happen, but as O'Malley and Ned are pulling out of the donut shop, they happen to see that very car with two guys in the front and a woman in the back. Sargent O'Malley says, 'That's the car, Ned! We're going to go after it. Flip on the siren, and let's get 'em!'"
"Ned, who's been studying the back of the car, says, 'I don't think so, Sarge. It's not them.'"
Just what did Ned see?
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Much hopeful thinking and hopes to help out quickly... or inadvertently send on a wild goose chase. I should probably just get back to work. :)
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