posted by
someone claiming to be dschwied
on
Fri Oct 30 07:58 CST 2009 [ RELATED]
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I'm puzzled about why mfrs have adopted such widespread use of Torx fasteners. I could see them where higher torque is desirable, but I seem to see them in so many plain Jane applications. The downside of Torx is clear--fumbling for multiple bits instead of a one or two-size fits all Philips--but I just don't see the upside.
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I like torx. I like torx a lot.
Won't strip like a Phillips head.... and there are a *bunch* of flavors of Phillips, BTW. Hard to tell which flavor is which, so you're probably using the wrong screwdriver 90% of the time. I bet this is why so many screws get striped. I had a hell of a time getting the Phillips screws out of the ECU bracket in our '87 240.
I even have a set of torx bits for my ratchet so all of those factory-tight fasteners in doors are a breeze. You can even get safety torx bits for "sticking it to the man" by disassembling public restrooms. :-)
-Ryan
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Athens, Ohio
1987 245 DL 324k, Dog-mobile, E-codes
1990 245 DL 137k M47, E-codes, GT Sway Bars, GT Braces, Dracos
1991 745 GL 304k, Regina, 23/21mm Turbo Sway Bars
Buckeye Volvo Club
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I think it was the tool makers... they realized everyone already had all the screwdrivers they'd ever need, so they lobbied auto makers to go with something new.
All honesty, torx is great _IF_ you can find the right size, and some are next to impossible to find, even in the most comprehensive sets... #9 for instance (if anyone needs a #9, let me know. I got fed up and special ordered a couple hundred of 'em)
Also.. I've got about 25, maybe 50 phillips screwdrivers scattered about in every nook and cranny of cars, the house, kitchen, bathroom.. I can always find a phillips that will work and it's usually within arms reach. I might only have one or two of each of the common torx sizes (save for #9), and I have to be at the right place at the right time to find them.
If you gots the right tools handy, torx is great. Otherwise, very frustrating to me. I don't like having to make a special trip to the hardware store to buy a stinkin' screwdriver.
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-Matt I ♥ my ♂
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Because the USA manufacturers were unwilling to pay patent rights to the Robertson square drive system, developed in Canada by Peter Robertson in the early 20th century, long before Mr. Phillips came up with his lousy (but good looking) design. About 3 Robertson sizes cover 10 Torx sizes.
Your sockets and ratchets use square drive, so why not the fasteners themselves? Money.
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Because we drive cars,and not mobile homes (which use the Robertson square drives exclusively). Screws can be removed and installed more reliably with the Torx method than with any other. Measure the contact area of the driver versus the Robertson system.
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Because.....Robertson strips easier than Phillips. The only place I have seen Robertson used is in AC electrical wiring products. It's for low torque applications only. Slight advantage is that its cheap and the screw will stay on the end of the driver.
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David Hunter
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I've been using them all my life - I'm Canadian - and they don't strip. Drywall screws, carpentry screws, in the most powerful screw guns you can find - they don't strip. The ones you are talking of may be softer alloy, but here in Canuck land they're used for everything. Even the fasteners on my boat, in stainless steel, are Robertson, and all slots and phillips are ignominiously pitched overboard when removed to be replaced with Robertson.
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My uncle is into wood working and lives by the square drive. That's telling enough for me!
The problem with Phillips is that almost all of the time we use the wrong bit 'cause it's nearly impossible to tell what kind of Phillips you're dealing with after the fact.
I will say that Phillips is pretty good **with the right bit**. I blasted all of my wooden storage boxes/closets in the carport with a air-driven drill using those "Phillips-2" screws and the proper Phillips-2 bit. That worked real well.
Otherwise, I'm not a fan of Phillips!
-Ryan
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Athens, Ohio
1987 245 DL 324k, Dog-mobile, E-codes
1990 245 DL 137k M47, E-codes, GT Sway Bars, GT Braces, Dracos
1991 745 GL 304k, Regina, 23/21mm Turbo Sway Bars
Buckeye Volvo Club
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Hi Ryan;
One of the problems, as you say, is identifying the type of Phillips, but also there are similar designs, like Posidrive and Reed & Prince, that look the same but have variations in angles. Stromberg carbs use Reed and Prince chamber screws, and I replace them every time because they are always messed up with Phillips drivers.
Rhys
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I am also Canadian (living in US). My impression is that Robertson has always been used in low torque applications such as drywall wood, self tapping metal etc. I never considered them usefull as a machine screw.
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David Hunter
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Torx is a far superior fastener design both for original assembly line use and for long term maintenance. The Phillips head design cams out far too easily. Old straight cut screw heads are even worse. Just get yourself a set of Torx actual screwdrivers for the common sizes and you may learn to love 'em.
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-STANLEY-4PC-TORX-SCREWDRIVER-SET-60-042_W0QQitemZ220500143853QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3356d52eed
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Torx is to phillips as phillips is to slotted -- huge advance
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TORX was developed for automated and machine installation of fasteners. In these settings torque was pre set and limited by the driver or machine. Interestingly, Phillips allow slip for the purpose of limiting over tightening. TORX fasteners enter straighter due to the grip of the bit in the straight sides of the TORX design. Compare to the sloped sides of Phillips...
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1988 245A. Past: 1979 245A; 1987 244 M47; 1971 164E
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I think originally it was meant to discourage DIY maintenance. Now that everyone has Torx drivers it's just a PITA.
I remember doing aircraft maintenance many years ago and there were lots of special fasteners -- probably to prevent unqualified mechanics from getting in there.
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1986 Volvo 245
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I'm convinced that it is part of the auto industry's plan to increase social interaction, because everytime I go to the pick and pull it never fails that I have at least one person come up to me and ask, "Hey, man, do you had any of those "star" bits in your tool bag..."
Randy
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Well, close. I think it was bigger then the auto industry. I think it was a big closed door Congress decision.
Greasy handshakes at the Junk yard to bring Harmony to the US of A. : )
And Art thinks it had to do with Magnetic holding tools on the Production line ...silly man
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'75 Jeep CJ5 345Hp ChevyPwrd, two motorcycles, '85 Pickup: The '89 Volvo is the newest vehicle I own. it wasn't Volvos safety , it was Longevity that sold me http://home.no.net/ebrox/Tony's%20cars.htm
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I like Randy's answer better, but when Torx came out I lived not far from a Chrysler assembly plant. I knew a volunteer fireman who worked there. He explained the efficiency improvement gained by installing interior trim fastened with self-tapping torx-head screws. The bit held the head firmly and straight, and the torque limited speed drivers tightened them uniformly. Nothing to do with security or tamper resistance. 1972 or 73 I think.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.
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You mean Chrysler used torx in the early 70's? Who would've thunk it! I'd have said dowels, but what do I know...
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The Wikipedia page on Torx says it was developed in Rockford, IL. That's where the Chrysler plant was - Belvedere Assembly.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
A chicken crossing the road is poultry in motion.
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Lol, this happens to me too, Randy. I actually like the torx bits. I must admit, I strip the hell out of phillips-head screws, but I've twisted the head of a cheap torx bit before without stripping the screw head.
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I am enjoying this thread, and Art, your sayings at the end of your posts are always a great read!
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