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Help! My 1987 240 wagon w/200k+ (B230F with auto trans)has developed a shudder at low speed particularly when coasting/drifting to a stop & beginning to accelerate. The shudder seems to occur after car is warmed up or driven a few miles. Had the rear trailing arm bushings replaced prior to all this thinking they caused the shudder (now all suspension bushings are poly). In the last month I have replaced: motor mounts (they were bad,separated & totally failed), auto trans mount (marginal, soft but intact), drive-shaft ctr bearing & supporting rubber mount (bearing ok, mount a little soft) the drive-line now seems very tight (these repairs each seemed to reduce the severity of the shudder but it still occurs). I have also replaced right rear brake caliper, both rear rotors and pads & bled brakes (a rebuilt caliper failed & ran pad down to metal ruining rotor). The u-joints are all good, they were replaced 5k ago, I even full flushed transmission and replaced trans tail-shaft bushing in last 20-25k. More background; car has IPD overload coils, Bilstein shocks & struts, all poly bushings, new strut mounts, fully refurbished brakes w/ss lines in last 5k (all calipers, rotors, pads & complete flush). Other thoughts, could rear wheel bearings cause these problems? when replacing the rotors I noticed a notchy feeling when rotating rear hubs and also what seemed like too much play when changing rotation direction. Could rear differential be going bad? Not much info in Bently & I'm running out of ideas/patients...any insight appreciated. Thanks, Mike
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Mike,
What did you come up with on this issue? I ask because I have similar problems with my 89 wagon and have replaced most everything you have and run through the same diagnosis. I'm pretty sure it's the pinion bearings (there is one in front of the axle, easier to get to behind the driveshaft flange, and I believe another inside the pumpkin behind the axle and much more difficult to deal with).
I also have the same notchy clackity-clack when rotating the wheels, but there seems to be absolutely no play when jerking on the wheel and hub, making me think it's not the wheel bearings, but something in the diff gears (pinion and bearings).
What's the latest on your rig?
Jason
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"U-joints replaced 5k miles ago"
I have to question the quality of those u-joints, based on the other bargain parts you mention from FCP. And your slow coasting "shudder" sounds just like what I have experienced from a bad rear -joint. Not worn sloppy bad, but dry, tight, and stiff bad.
I'm not sure binding joint could develop in 5K miles. But it might with a low-cost part, aggravated by lack of lube. That is, if the thin "shipping grease" wasn't replaced with real grease before the joint was installed.
The rear joint gets the most "universal" action, so it could be expected to act up first. I'd disconnect it and "wobble" the flange in all directions to check for smooth operation with no binds.
--
Bruce Young, '93 940-NA (current), 240s (one V8), 140s, 122s, since '63.
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The u-joints are a good suggestion but, I used locally bought spicer's with zerk fittings and inspected joints for wear & re-greased when I (recently) replaced the center bearing and carrier. The drive shaft rotates smoothly and seems very solid (even the tailshaft bushing I replaced two years ago seems good). I guess I should re-describe the shudder as a very tight bucking/hopping upon either starting up from a stop or slow coast/drift (after car is warmed up). I think this problem is related to either the rear suspension, differential or transmission or movement/torking of these parts. Thanks anyway for the ideas, Mike
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"U-joints replaced 5k miles ago" . Did you mark the position of the drive shaft and reassemble accordingly, aligning the marks?
Cheap tests:
"Overload springs": After your engine mount job and with overload springs, I wonder if the trajectory of the drive shaft changed? Might try adding some weight to the cargo area, maybe 100 lbs and see what it does to the vibration.
As mentioned, a problem tire will set up vibration. You may want to move tires front to rear, even out air pressure and see what happens.
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I am pretty sure drive shaft is aligned properly. The yokes are definitely aligned and the overload springs are "old" (installed 100k ago). I have hauled 100-300# in addition to driver w/no change. When the car was up on jack-stands to bleed the brakes I removed all the tires, visually inspected, checked the pressure and rotated. I should mention these are new Dunlops (3000mi). All with no change to the shudder/hop. Also drive train is smooth at speed - shudder only occurs at standing start or drifting start and under easy/low acceleration. Thanks again for input, Mike
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Mike,
I'm not sure you caught what oscarcat meant.
He isn't talking about drive shaft alignment problems that you would get with the splines being put together wrong.
He is talking about whether the drive shaft is making a straight line from the trans tailshaft flange to the diff flange. In other words, is the center carrier too high, too low, or too far left or right so that the shaft changes direction when it goes through the center carrier.
Charley
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Charley, I follow you. I believe the shaft position is fairly correct. The only possibility I see in the alignment issue is that somehow the rear diff's pinion angle was altered when the trailing arm bushings were recently changed. I am going to get the guy who installed the bushings to put the car up on a lift and let me look it over for suspension mount/component cracks and/or missing/failed bushings (all suspension bushings should now be poly). I may also loosen up & retork bolts to see if the diffs position changes. Thanks, Mike
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Technically, it is driveline vibration but not what you might suspect. I had an 81 Datsun 200SX (hate to admit that) many moons ago that had a "driveline" vibration at low speeds. It turned out that the belts in the right rear tire had slipped/shifted resulting in a diagonal tire wear pattern. Rear tire replacement resolved the issue.
And yes, I went through and replaced the welded in u-joints and bushings BEFORE finding the real problem.
jorrell
--
92 245 284K miles, IPD'd to the hilt, 06 XC70, 00 Eclipse custom Turbo setup...currently taking names and kicking reputations!
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I have considered the idea of a bad/slipped belt or bad tire but these are relatively new (3000mi) Dunlop Signature Radials that upon visual inspection look very good the back tires display minimal wear, the fronts slightly more on the outer & innermost treads. I have also rotated front to back,opposite side as recommended with no change. I may go back to tire shop and have re-check and re-balance anyway as they said they would re-balance free. I have also noted in other replys this is more of a shudder/hop binding up that occurs only when torking & untorking of drive train occurs during easy accelleration this does not happen at speed or deceleration until you are below 10 mph and primarily under 5mph. Thanks for the input anyway, the more I think about this the clearer the problem becomes. Mike
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I had a similar shudder that went away when I replaced the old rubber center bearing support housing on the driveshaft.
Dan
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Low-speed driveline vibration is typically caused by misalignments of the components - engine/trans, driveshaft, and differential. You've already hit the prime offenders, the engine & tranny mounts and the u-joints. Just in case you used Scan-Tech engine mounts, look at them closely as you rev the engine and see if you're getting too much rocking motion.
Rear wheel bearings won't produce the symptoms you describe; you'll get more of a rumble or growl. But to be sure, roll your windows down and do some low-speed, wide "slalom" turns in a deserted area. A loaded (bad) bearing quiets down, and an unloaded bearing makes noise. Listen for a change in sound as you turn from side to side.
--
In God We Trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them.
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Smitty thanks, I think the engine mounts were OEM Volvo, I had pulled them off a parts car I sold last year thinking they looked very new (rubber very clean,solid and no corrosion on bolts, slight bulge with engine weight) esp when compared to the ones I replaced which were both totally failed/separated w/motor literally sitting on mounts. I am now re-thinking the motor mounts as the motor does move a little when revving, source options are OEM Volvo $$$$$, IPD - APA brand $18/set + ship or FCP Groton - URO Brand $10/set (I've no clue who APA or URO are both IPD and FCP seem very reliable, both have made good on bad parts in the past... any comments).
BTW I got the trans-mount from FCP Groton and am not sure who made it...(it's definitely in better shape then the one it replaced), the CTR bearing unit was also from FCP & is definitely Scan Tech it looked identical to unit I removed which may have been Scan Tech also (I installed years/80-100k ago.)
The rear wheel bearing info is very interesting. I will pull yakima rack off roof today and try slalom experiment to see if I can hear anything.
I noticed the failed right rear brake "slaloming" the way you described. The caliper failed expanded and ate the pad down to the metal killing the rotor. When you "slalomed" the rotor made a grinding noise. I took car home put it on stands, pulled the wheel and found the caliper could not be retracted after removing pads. I now wonder if a bad rear wheel bearings movement/looseness could contribute to my brake failure due to vibration &/or looseness problem. This would not be considered run-out unless rotor oscillates? Not that I have a dial indicator or ever really check for run-out when doing brakes beyond the visual rotation of rotors to look for wavering/scuffing. I hope the wheel bearing are bad & not the rear. (I actually sold my parts car to a guy ($150) who wanted the rear axle because his growled/roared per your description. Local parts yard wants $900...Murphy Law in play.)
*Note* Wear & tear inflicted by letting a teenage girl(daughter) drive your car(240) through highschool years is roughly comparable to running the DAKAR Rally, twice, in reverse, blindfolded.
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Before you go changing your engine mounts again, consider two common failure modes. One is simple collapse from age & heat. This is where the rubber is squashed and bulging and the height of the mount is far less than when it was new. If you can't get even a pinky finger in between the alternator and the oil filter, then it's past time to replace the mount.
The other failure mode is the rubber parting company with the metal end plates. You may see this if the top mount plate seems laterally offset from the rubber puck. When I was teaching #1 son to drive a stick, he got into the major "bunny hop" mode in 1st gear and tore both engine mounts! Note that both failure modes are commonly found together.
The driver's side mount is tougher to see from topside, and it generally is slower to deteriorate than the passenger side because the passenger side mount is close to the exhaust.
When you rev the engine, it will *always* rock in its mounts; hope I didn't mislead you. How much rocking is too much is subjective to be sure. One thought is to jack up the front of the engine ~carefully~ and see a) how much the engine mounts are compressed, and b) if the metal ends are torn from the rubber. You might be able to get a jack under the crank pulley to do this, but check the other recent threads about changing engine mounts and where/how to support the engine. You don't want to dent the oil pan.
If you do need to change mounts again, talk to Nick Bauer at fcpgroton about what your options are. The last set I got from them, which I believe were Scan-Tech, didn't last a year, and it was easier (but more expensive) to use OEM Volvo parts. I'm not dead-set against Scan-Tech; some of their stuff is decent, just not their mounts.
--
In God We Trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them.
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Smitty, I have pretty much replied to everyones posts and the more I think about this problem the more ideas I get. The engine mounts may be an issue but I'm not ready to change them out yet, they are defininatly not separated but could be a little soft, they showed no signs of oil-soaking and I think they were volvo (I like to think I am thrifty, not cheap) They looked very good (I am definietly particular, boardering on nit-picking who else would expect a 22 year old car w/200k+ to drive better than new?) I am thinking there is a driveline torking issue where there is some sort of wind up-release due to play or miss-alignment similar to the problems with bad; motor mounts, trans mount, and drive shaft ctr bearing & carrier. While all these items may not be perfect they are much better than the parts they replaced. This shudder/bucking/hop is like the infant/brother micro version of the wind up/hop eliminated by installing traction/ladder bars on my '67 Camero 30 years ago to stop the rear axle from rotating off the line. Makes me wonder if axle pinoin is mis-oriented from replacement of trailing arm bushing while rest of driveline was "out of sorts due to failed motor & trans mounts. The shudder was reduced significantly when I replaced all the mounts but is still there particularly when starting up from a drifting near stop under low acceleration. You can prolong the shudder by slacking the acceleration or drifting sometimes. The more I think the more I feel the problem is related to rear suspension (cracked mount, loose part or non-poly bushing that I missed or somekind of play in the differential) I tried the "slalom" test & think rear bearings should be replaced (they are both at least 90K and feel a little notchy/gritty when on jackstands & rotated w/o calipers & rotors) but they are not roaring/grinding & can't be heard over IPD sport exhaust. Thanks, I really appreciate your time & effort. I'll let you know what this was when I get it right
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With older cars you have to play the percentages, and I agree with your reasoning. You've considered certain areas and ruled them out. A wise engineer once wrote that if you make a series of three educated guesses, you have an 87.5% chance of being right.
But on to your current suspect, the rear end. Are your trailing arm and torque rod bushings in decent shape? Years ago, my '88 was at the dealer for an emergency radiator repair, and smelling money, they put it on the lift. There was about 30 degrees or rotational play in the rear axle (rotating about the rear wheel axis) because of disintegrated trailing arm bushings.
Some time later, I had some axle wind-up troubles because of worn Panhard rod bushings.
Just giving you ideas to check out!
--
In God We Trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them.
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Smitty, I think the wind-up/release concept is the answer. I think that the normal shudder people are getting is the drive shaft (winding/torking) getting out of alignment/position due to too much play/movement due to various combinations of loose/failed u-joints, ctr bearing/carrier bushing and trans/motor mounts. I now suspect my issue is more from wind up of the differential itself hopefully related to suspension and not axle ring/pinon, spline, slipage, engagement problems or some sort of trans issue (picking a gear at low rpms. I really need to get this thing up on a lift and look at it. Thanks again, Mike
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