Recently, in the past month I began to have problems that my mechanic cannot diagnose, so far, and which sounds like some but not completely alike any of the other issues I've read.

The car has 200,000 plus miles on it, getting good spark and plenty of cranking power.

If I stop and park the car within a few minutes of starting it in the garage, it won't start again for approx. 6-8 hours; a battery booster and battery charger were no help. The car acted as if it was NOT getting any fuel - it would crank and crank and crank but never fire.

The first time this happened about a month ago I had road service coverage and had it towed to my mechanic, this was on a Saturday evening.

Next Monday the mechanic called to tell me the car started with the first turn of the key, and he asked what the problem was -- I described the not starting immediately after starting. He did a diagnostic and found nothing wrong, fuel pressure, fuse in the engine compartment, spark, battery strength, air mass meter (mass air meter?? -- the sensor in the exhaust?? for the fuel injection)

Last week the same NOT-STARTING, cranking with apparently no fuel happened after I warmed the car up for 10-15 minutes driving to an appointment.

Walked home and had a friend drive me back that evening, elapsed time was from approx 12.45 PM until about 7.30 PM -- again the car started on first turn of the key. Didn't have to have it towed, drove it home w/o problems and put it in the garage.

Yesterday for the first time the car would not start in the garage. Same symptoms -- cranking as if it had no fuel.

Diagnostic Paths and Tests would be appreciated -
1. Have limited funds and cannot just replace one part after another until something works.

2. Mechanic rechecked car and still finds no error message from diagnostics -- all he can suggest is a $300 tuneup and he admits it may or may not solve the problem.

3. Have checked ignition wires and distributor cap, ground for battery to car frame, etc. Any other suggestions of _______________?

4. How to tell if fuel-injected engine is getting fuel?

5. Or is there another fuse, besides the bayonet fuse for fuel injection on wall of engine compartment?

6. Any other instruments, tools, suggested -- have a friend with great collection of automobile tools?

7. Any other resources or leads to suggest?


Thanks to one and all,
brickmann

Tuesday, September 29 Update,
Ok, now the car won't start, not even in the garage, and not after sitting overnight.

This seems to reduce the variables, or not?

Any ideas for how to proceed now?

BTW - stitches taken out of my right thigh, so by Friday or Saturday I should be cleared by the doctor to squat and crawl, generally working around the car will be possible once again

Thanks for all the suggestions in the past.

Someone told me there is a closed fuse holder for the 25 amp bayonet fuse in the engine compartment? Maybe it is originally for a boat or marine use?

brickmann

Great post on testing fuel pump:
http://www.brickboard.com/RWD/volvo/1322854/220/240/260/280/fuel_pump_problem_long_response.html

Might help, good luck with your brick!

Just a couple of things to add to the other good advice you've received:

Re the 25-amp, blade-style underhood fuse - if the fuse you remove looks in any way corroded or overheated, replace the fuseholder as well as the fuse. NAPA or other good parts stores have generic weatherproof fuseholders rated for 25 amps or higher. Splice the new one in and liberally cover the fuseholder with electrician's tape. My war story is that my '88 had a no-start condition; I pulled the fuse, even checked it on my Fluke DMM, and got the satisfying 'beep' signifying continuity. A frustrating week later, I check the fuse RESISTANCE and found it to be thousands of ohms - an oddity for sure, but a fresh fuse got Rumblegutz running.

Look at your fuse block and try jumpering between the two fuel pump fuses. If jumpering gets you started, then the likely culprit is that underhood fuse or the fuel pump relay.

There are at least two ground wires on the intake manifold from the injector harness - this is way down on the list of suspects, but do check them for integrity and good grounds.
--
In God We Trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them.

Obviously any diagnostic testing during the time when the car will start means little. Have read the thread and cannot see for sure that spark was checked during the actual time that it would not start. Can it be assumed that you have spark at ALL times. If yes then why not just jumper the fuel pumps, verify they are running, leave the jumper in place and try to start the car. The result will tell you a lot. Of course do this during a period of time when it otherwise fails to start.





--
David Hunter

David, and to other responders,
Rereading the information I've gotten I wanted to clarify something:

When people write about 'jumpering' do you/they mean bypassing? The photos I've been sent show the fuses removed when doing the diagnostic testing so I'm confused. . . .

Thanks brickmann

In my experience on a '90 245, you can jumper with the fuses in place or removed - the jumper should be the shorter electrical path, so you'll hear the pumps running if they're operative.

David,
sorry for the addendum ....
SPARK - YES WITH HELP OF A FRIEND IT WAS CHECKED WITH ONE OF US TURNING THE ENGINE OVER, AND THE OTHER USING A RUBBER GLOVE HOLDING THE SIX SPARK PLUG LEADS AGAINST THE ENGINE -- GOT GOOD, STRONG SPARK.
CHECKED THE DISTRIBUTOR, GROUND AND THE ROTOR SINCE WE WERE LOOKING, AS WELL AS CHECKING FOR LOOSE LEADS, PARTIAL OR INTERMITTENT CONNECTIONS, ETC.
THE LAST TUNEUP WAS ABOUT A YEAR AGO JANUARY -- I DON'T DRIVE THE CAR THAT MUCH SO I WOULD ESTIMATE I ONLY HAVE SOME 12-14,000 MILES SINCE THEN, AND IT COULD BE MUCH LESS, LIKE 5-6000 MILES, JUST DON'T HAVE THE MILEAGE NUMBERS WITH ME.

BTW-- SOME RELATED ISSUES....
HAVE A PROBLEM WHICH COULD PREVENT ME FROM ACCESSING THE FUEL TANK AND THE IN-TANK PUMP FROM THE TRUNK - LAST TIME I CLOSED THE TRUNK THE LANYARD FOR MY KEYS SWUNG AROUND AND GOT CAUGHT, ACTUALLY CAUGHT IN THE LATCH OF THE TRUNK, AND CUTTING THE ENDS JUST CONFIRMED IT IS ACTUALLY IN THE TRUNK LATCH ITSELF, NOT JUST BEHIND OR ALONGSIDE IT -- AGAIN THE MANUALS I'VE CONSULTED HAVE NO SOLUTION FOR ACCESSING THE TRUNK FROM THE BACK SEAT.
ITS BEEN SUGGESTED THAT I JUST "PUNCH" THE LOCK OUT, BUT FROM WHAT I KNOW OF THE TRUNK LID AND LOCK ASSEMBLY, THAT'S NOT AN EASY THING TO DO, AND THEN I WOULD HAVE TO FIND A USED LOCK FOR A 20 YEAR OLD CAR?
DO YOU KNOW OF ANY ONLINE MANUALS?
OR THE EXACT TITLE OF THE SO-CALLED 'VOLVO BIBLE?
ALSO LOOKING FOR A SOURCE OF THE AFTER-MARKER GLASS FUSES ARE SO MUCH LESS TROUBLE THAN THE 'EURO' STYLE CERAMIC FUSES WITH THE EXTERNAL FUSE METALLIC STRIP? THE ONLINE SOURCE I KNEW OF STOPPED SELLING THEM BECAUSE THEY RAN INTO HIGH INCIDENCE OF INTERNAL FAULTS WHICH WERE NOT VISIBLE?

THANX, BRICKMANN

This image is taken through the "ski hole" of an 89 244.

Good luck
Randy

Thanks for the picture especially, as well as the instructions.

1. Can you help me orient in this picture -- I have a 244 1989 Volvo sedan but I don't know what the 'ski hole' is?

>> can insert response text here -- maybe use all caps (?) to help me read?<<

2. Do all 244 models have ski holes, or is it an optional feature?

>> can insert response text here -- maybe use all caps (?) to help me read?<<

3. Am I right in thinking this is a view from the back seat looking into the trunk?

>> can insert response text here -- maybe use all caps (?) to help me read?<<

4. If my 244 DL sedan doesn't have a 'ski hole' is there an existing cutout in the metal framing behind the back upright seat cushion that I could reach through as shown in your photo, if I get the back seat upright cushion removed?

>> can insert response text here -- maybe use all caps (?) to help me read?<<

5. Do you or anyone else have any experience with a dealer or a locksmith being able to help or work on this? My model has an option, don't know if all '89 240's include it, to open the trunk when all other locks (electric locks on four sedan doors, but no electric windows) are opened, or by turning trunk key, disconnecting the trunk lock from the rest of the system, so it can only be opened by manually opening the trunk lid with a key?

>> can insert response text here -- maybe use all caps (?) to help me read?<<

6. Since I have been unable to turn the key in the trunk lid lock since the lanyard became wedged into the locking mechanism itself
2 ends of lanyard
L side of latch|_\/__|R side of latch viewed from rear
}|{ lock itself with fabric in latch along with hooking portion of latch from frunk lid

I have pushed down on trunk lid, tried to unravel the tightly woven lanyard, etc. all without success, so if I understand your suggestion, and there is a way to access this 'ski hole' it would be a godsend.

>> can insert response text here -- maybe use all caps (?) to help me read?<<

With appreciation, brickmann

ALL 1989 244'S THAT I KNOW OF HAVE WHAT I HAVE CALLED THE SKI HOLE.

LOWER THE ARMREST IN THE BACKSEAT. MOVE THE VINYL FLAP TO THE SIDE. PUSH ON FIBER BOARD (IT IS HINGED ON TOP)

LOOK INTO THE TRUNK.

Just wanted to update everyone - went to the garage to check the battery - have a charger that will actually start the car, in addition to charging, slow-charge, etc. and found the battery fine.

But the problem when I popped the rear armrest down was that I found a large speaker where the "ski hole" should be, and it was apparently pop-riveted from the trunk, which is where I need to get -- the speaker is in fine shape, and since I never realized it was contributing to the overall 'sound' of the radio-cd player, I am at a loss - especially since the speaker is apparently fastened from the back, from the trunk.

Back to the drawing board.

Thanks, brickmann

WOW!
U know I don't think I have ever had the arm rest down -- talk about hidden treasures.

Now I have to find out how bady the lanyard fabric has jammed the trunk lock!

Thanks again, brickmann

DAVID,
EXCUSE MY USING ALL CAPS - CAN'T FIGURE OUT HOW, IF POSSIBLE, TO GET THE BRICKBOARD MESSAGE WINDOW TO INCREASE TEXT SIZE - PREFERENCES OPTION ONLY AFFECTS THE WEBPAGES....
I HAVE THE TEXT AND PICTURES FOR JUMPING THE FUEL INJECTION RELAY, BUT NOT THE FUEL PUMPS -- CAN YOU HELP WITH DETAILS OF THE TROUBLESHOOTING YOU SUGGEST?
I ALSO HAVE LEARNED REMOVING THE 25 AMP BAYONET FUSE IN THE ENGINE COMPARTMENT WILL RESET THE ECU TO ZERO STATE OF 1-1-1 WHICH WOULD OVERCOME ANY VERY HOT STARTING PROBLEMS?
THE MORE I USE THE HAYNES MANUAL I HAVE FOR THE VOLVO 240 SERIES THE MORE I LEARN FROM PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHAT ISN'T WRITTEN THERE.
THANKS AGAIN.
BRICKMANN

Do a search on this site for problematic ECUs in 89s with LH2.4 fuel injection and see if it matches your symptoms. There is a reliable ECU and one that fails ( of course at 200k miles reliability or a lack of it is debatable).

Does the engine ever cut out, even for a second once it is running, maybe going around a corner.

Ron
92 245
near Brantford, ON,Can

I will second Ronald's suggestion and find a spare ECU to test. I had a no-hot restart that cropped up with a pink-label -561 ECU after 230k miles on my move to Alaska. Once we realized what was going on, we would leave the car idling during stops so that we could continue down the road, and only shut it off when we had an hour to kill somewhere or at the end of the day. That no-hot-restart morphed into a no-start about a month later (search my old posts for the whole saga). While all of the checks mentioned below are important and good general practice, this one is easy to check if you have a spare handy, though more difficult to diagnose without cracking the case on the ECU and probing individual components. If you have a -561 ECU, which is likely for an '89, there are a number of acceptable substitutes. I put together a table with the best information I could scrape together here: http://www.nuceng.ca/bill/volvo/database/ecu.htm

Basically, find a -933, -935, -946 or -951 ECU swap it with yours. If yours still has the original -561 ECU, consider yourself lucky and either pick up a spare for testing purposes or be proactive and replace it with a later, more reliable model.

Best of luck,
Zach
Anchorage, Alaska
1990 245 w/278k mi

Let's start from the beginning, what car do you have? Since you are speaking in miles, I strongly suspect you do not have a 1999 Volvo 240 as they were (to the best of my knowledge) not sold past 1993 in any market that still knows what a mile is.

Second, are you sure that at the moment of the car not starting, you have spark...basically, are you testing for this with either an inductive timing light or by grounding plug to with the wire attached where you can see it?

Have you tried the simple stuff like:

Fuel pump relay (either jumpering around it, resoldering or replacement)
Fuel filter
Plug Wires (you can't really check wires on a non running engine)
Replacing the fuel filter
Changing the CPS (if your car has one)
Cleaning all the Engine and ECU related grounds
All the other fuses (which I could tell you where they are if knew what car you had)

Without know what car you actually have it really hard to help. If it is a 240 model than I would say with almost 100% certainty it is one of the following in order of probability:

Fuel pump relay
Bullet fuses next to you left foot that are making poor contact (do not look at them to determine condition...remove, inspect, retension the holder and clean if neccesary, replace)
Ignition switch (electrical portion)
Bad Engine to chasis ground
Other ground wire
Flakey main pump or main pump wiring

For 1991 models...pink-label ECU that has made it this long without being replaced.

25 AMP blade fuse in the enginge compartment if so equiped is also a VERY likely candidate. Again, don't just look at the fuse...

Onkel Udo

Onkel Udo
1. Sorry this forms shows the year and model -- 1989-240DL Sedan -- didn't realize it wasn't displayed.

2. Yes Spark was tested w 2 people -- holding each cylinder ignition wire in turn above spark plug while the other guy cranked the engine

3. Have checked the items you noted, except for resoldering the fuel pump relay?
Have checked the fuse for FI in the engine compartment as well as the fuses in the driver kick panel fuse panel.

The other thing is that whatever the fault is, it doesn't seem to meet the specs for "intermittent" -- it happens consistently under these circumstances -- and until yesterday it always cleared when I let the car sit long enough, like overnight, or at least 7+ hours.

4. My mechanic says from my symptoms it seems the fuel injection "brain" gets confused if the car is turned off and restart is attempted less than 5 minutes or so from when car is first started there is confusion, because the engine isn't warmed up -- when the 'confusion' about whether to be in cold start or warmed up happens, some default kicks in with the result no fuel gets to engine until the system "resets"
IF I COULD FIGURE OUT HOW TO RESET THE CONDITION MANUALLY, SOMEHOW, TO COLD START, OR WHATEVER THE TECHNICAL TERM FOR IT IS, THEN I COULD 'TRICK' THE ENGINE INTO STARTING--IS THIS POSSIBLE?

5. About the 25 amp bayonet fuse in engine compartment -- see above -- when it fails though I normally get a warning light on dash -- carry spares and replace as a given when I have starting problems though.

6. Think I am not noticing something, that the 'glitch' is staring me in the face if only I could see it -- for example read somewhere the engine has a feature to make hard starting in cold weather easier (?) haven't found any literature about it, haven't found anything in the 240 manual I have either?

Regards, brickmann

"3. Have checked the items you noted, except for resoldering the fuel pump relay?
Have checked the fuse for FI in the engine compartment as well as the fuses in the driver kick panel fuse panel. "

Then I am guessing you also have not jumpered around the relay either. I cannot stress enough that this is the #1 thing that screamed out at me when you said it had spark but no fuel. Unless your mechanic is a RWD Volvo expert, chances are exceptional that he would not check this. This is not something that will throw up a code for a diagnostic-dependant mechanic to research.

When you turn your key to position II do you hear the fuel pump run of a couple of seconds? Do a search for Fuel Pump Relay and see how many thousands of hits you get. If you find the process for jumpering around the relay, and do it when the car refuses to start...I would bet you a case of my favorite Ale that it will start...unless your fuel filter is clogging. It helps that I am in place where I can neither collect on the bet...or easily pay out.

A fuel filter that is heavily loaded up can settle out over a period of minutes or hours allowing a vehicle to restart after this has happened. It normally causes stuttering or stalling at slowing down from sustained high speed run also, but you case cold be the exception.

Onkel Udo

And here is a picture of the offending relay as well as some banter about the failure if you follow the thread:

http://www.brickboard.com/RWD/volvo/1336145/220/240/260/280/relay_questions.html

Here is a different link of an almost similar situation to yours where the 25 AMP fuse under the hood, which was checked throughly, was the culprit:

http://www.brickboard.com/RWD/volvo/1364220/220/240/260/280/fuel_delivery.html

I only bring the second one up because you have not done all the troubleshooting yourself. I once made the mistake of trusting second and third hand accounts of what had been checked when my trusty '78 turd wagon was donated to a friend in need. I asked repeatedly of the friend, who was having another friend (an exceptional mechanic that I would trust with any airplane I fly or car I drive) do the actual diagnostics, "have you removed every fuse and checked the ends, then re-tensioned the clips and re-sinstalled the fuses?" He insisted they had and the car refused to crank so I walked him through testing the ignition swich and even gave him a spare from my '76 parts car.

End of the story is, when I finally took the time to go 20 miles out to the mechanic friends farm...I had not even cracked open the first beer when the car was started. The end of a perfectly fine looking red fuse was gone but the rest of the fuse looked brand new. They had actually just spun the fuses in their holders not know about the common issue of these crappy ceramic fuses...they worked on airplanes and that never happens with airplanes. If your mechanic works Fords, BMW's, Rolls Royce, even FWD Volvo's...he may have never run across the ceramic fuse issue or the 25 AMP blade use HOLDER issue.

Boy I must be bored to type that litany out.

Onkel Udo

OU,
HAVE TO USE ALL CAPS TODAY, UNLESS GLASSES ARE ON MY HEAD I CANT FIND THEM.

FIRST OF ALL DON'T WORRY ABOUT LENGTH OR IF IT FELT LIKE A LITANY OR SERMON TO YOU--IT DIDN'T READ THAT WAY TO ME, AND SOMETIMES, ESPECIALLY WITH TECHNICAL MATERIAL THERE IS NO SHORT WAY TO PROVIDE CRITICAL INFORMATION.

1. YES I AGREE ABOUT 2ND AND 3RD HAND TROUBLESHOOTING RESULTS - SOMETIMES EVEN FIRST HAND ARE SUSPECT: REMEMBER DOING A TUNEUP, INCLUDING REPLACING IGNITION WIRES, SPARK PLUGS, DISTRIBUTOR CAP AND ROTOR. VERY PROUD OF MYSELF WHEN I TURNED THE IGNITION ON ONLY TO HAVE IT TURN OVER WITHOUT FIRING. NOW I KNEW I HAD DONE EVERYTHING RIGHT, AND I CHECKED THE REPLACED PARTS ON MY TOOL BENCH. LOOKING AROUND FOR AN EXPLANATION I RECHECKED MY WORK ONLY TO FIND THERE WAS NO NEW ROTOR UNDER THE NEW DISTRIBUTOR CAP -- FOUND IT ON THE TOP TRAY/SHELF OF MY TOOLBOX! AND THE CAR STARTED AND RAN FINE WHEN IT WAS IN PLACE --
2. ALSO LEARNED A CHEAP AND EASY WAY TO DISABLE A VEHICLE WHICH PROBABLY SAVED MY FATHER-IN-LAWS LIFE SEVERAL YEARS LATER WHEN HE WAS HAVING A SENIOR MOMENT.

HAVE TO WAIT ON TRYING TO JUMPS AND WORKAROUNDS ON THE FUSE PANEL -- AND BEFORE I FORGET WHAT IS YOU FAVORITE ALE? RIGHT NOW I AM PARTIAL TO A CANADIAN BREW CALLED MOOSEHEAD BEER WHICH IS HARD TO FIND IN MY AREA?

REGARDS, BRICKMANN

Regarding my favorite ale...at this point it would be called "ANY" as I am living in dry country for this contract. That is no fun. Back home, I vary but for an good any day of the week beer, I like Goose Island Honkers Ale.

My wife swears I moved her to the Chicagoland just for change in available microbrews and not so she could do her Master's. Of course, my last contract before Chicago was in Washington State which has a much better selection...and better weather if you are on the eastern side of the mountains.

Onkel Udo

Good research. It does seem like a litany, having no decent 240 FAQ list, as I referred to as the 'holy grail' in the first of those two links.

The second link points up the value in having the year of the car. The 25A blade fuse under the hood is instrumental in making spark on the 89, but out of the picture in 87 - the subject of the fuel delivery post. One good use for the 25A fuse in 89 is resetting the computer memory. Momentarily removing the blade fuse puts everything in both ignition and fuel computers back to square one. Not only are the codes reset to 1-1-1, but all the trim changes are erased, so you get a fresh start software-wise.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore

If you think dogs can't count, try putting three dog biscuits in your pocket and then give him only two of them.
-Phil Pastoret

ART,
THIS IS ACTUALLY FOR EVERYONE WHO SEES THIS THREAD,REGARDING THE DIFFERENCES IN THE 240 SERIES -- DOES ANYONE KNOW OF SUCH A, FOR WANT OF A A BETTER DESCRIPTOR, "A DIFFERENTIAL CHRONOLOGY"?

I HAVE THE VOLVO MANUAL, HAYNES I THINK, AND I CAN'T FIND ANY DIFFERENCES IN THE ECU UNITS USED FOR THE 1989 240 FOR EXAMPLE, OR FOR THE OTHER DIFFERENCES, ESPECIALLY IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS, 89-93?

ALSO SOME OF THE PHOTOS I'VE RECEIVED SHOWN THE GLASS FUSES, WHICH I PREFER TO THE CERAMIC FUSES, AKA EURO-STYLE FUSES, BUT THE VOLVO SOURCE I KNOW OF NO LONGER SELLS THEM, AND I HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO FIND ANOTHER SUPPLIER? THE LOCAL AUTO PARTS PLACES ONLY SELL THE CERAMIC REPLACEMENT FUSES.

ANYONE KNOW OF AN ONLINE OR MAIL ORDER SOURCE?

REGARDS, BRICKMANN

Rich,

Though those are my glass fuses you saw, I don't recommend them. Better are the ceramic fuses with brass elements, minimizing dissimilar metal corrosion.

The ECU in LH2.4 and LH3.1, used during 89-93 in 240s, has volatile memory holding the fuel trim adjustments it has made to compensate for small wear in mechanical components, e.g. vacuum leaks, injector flows. When you disconnect the battery (or pull the 25A fuse) for a second, this memory is gone, and it needs about 10 miles driving to relearn your car. Usually this is the difference between stumbling, stalling, or rough idle, and smoother running and better fuel economy - not the difference between go and no go.

You can erase codes stored by the OBD using the push button, but that does not reset the fuel trim, so the easiest method to start from scratch is lift the 25A fuse momentarily. This keeps you from having to reprogram your radio presets.

Now if you have a poor battery connection, or a poor red lead in the 25A fuse, you could be getting the computer reset for you, without your intending it.

Regarding your question about what your trouble could be, ECU, AMM, Fuel relay,..., well it could be any of those. We wouldn't discourage you from keeping a spare ECU and AMM, obtained from a junkyard and tested in your car, to make troubleshooting by elimination easier. But missing those tools at present, it is best to follow a method. The jumper bypassing the fuel pump part of the fuel injection relay is a good first step.

The "pink label 561" scare is about a defect in a hybrid chip it uses, resulting in the fuel pump relay not being energized. This is a hard failure, not an intermittent bug, and is responsible for the pink label reputation. All other types of failures that can occur are just as likely in any of the ECU models and versions. But as you can imagine, there's an abundance of mythology surrounding the pink label. The bottom line is you should find a spare ECU and AMM for your car when the pressure is not on, and choose a white-label 561, or 951 if yours is a 561 now.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore

Life is like a roll of toilet paper.
The closer you get to the end the faster it goes.

Art,
Lots of good information, thanks a lot.

Regarding the spare ECU and AMM, or the philosophy in general: friends of mine who have done it, not with Volvos, but with other European marques, they have all come to a bad end: when push came to shove, as happened to one friend with a fuel-injected VW squareback, his ECU failed when he was camping in remote North Woods up around the US-Canadian border. When he replaced the failed, or suspected failed unit, he found the tested and vetted emergency replacement unit he carried around all those years and miles had gone south as well -- there's no way to connect a bypass for a non-functioning ECU -- this was before the cell phone era, so he had to hike back to the paved road, hitch a ride to the nearest mechanic and have his car towed there, waiting to order and then a "new" good ECU ??
Maybe Volvo spare parts are hardier, or maybe parts in general are now hardier than they were then? Or do you have to pack them in one of those foam-lined XXXL attache cases to carry them around in?
thanx, brickmann

OK Rich,

I'd much rather discuss the "philosophy" behind my advice than actually try to help you get your car running. I won't attempt to compare it to D-jet injection or mobile telephony in the early 80's, but will suggest if you have a pink label 561, you either replace it with a white label version or keep a jumper wire ready to bypass the fault it will almost certainly sustain, if it lives long enough. The spare AMM is handy, because there is no other way to be certain of its diagnosis, if suspected. Both are obtainable at much better prices when you aren't desperate for them.

Neither are delicate physically, despite the fine platinum wire in the AMM; but I don't carry these spares in any particular car. I'd have too much difficulty trying to determine which of them deserves the baggage.

I'm glad you got your computer glasses back. I don't know why, but I really have a hard time reading what looks like old teletype text. I didn't have any problem with it back before the cell phone era. Let us know when you're ready to work on your car.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish, and he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day.

Art,
I just re-read your last message, and I'm not sure if I got what you wrote? Were you telling me you didn't want to give me feedback about getting my car started (my initial priority) and would discuss the philosophy of how to assemble backups for critical components (ECU, AMM, and ????]or what? Sorry if you meant one thing and I read another?

I do agree that getting these critical parts backups can be done more effectively, and almost certainly more cheaply, when I am not in an 'emergency' mode.

One of the facts I am weighing against other facts is the 'estimated value' of my 1989 244 DL sedan or whatever it is called [since it is too old to have a 'Blue Book' value]compared to the cost/value of assembling critical parts backups, or even the estimated $300.00 my mechanic gave me for a tuneup with new belts, hoses, etc., etc. -- which of course didn't include replacing the ECU, or the AMM.

Don't get me wrong, the Volvos I've owned have all given me much more in value received than their purchase plus maintenance costs, including this car I bought second hand when a fellow teacher was retiring and bought herself a new Volvo.

So I am on a 'shoe-string' budget and appreciate the things I can do myself to diagnose and work around problems -- this '89 244 sedan at best isn't worth more than $200. according to my insurance agent, and probably $100.oo is closer to the 'real value' he says. The car is worth much more to me than the 'paper value' whatever it is, and I want to do all I can myself, going to the dealer or my mechanic only as a last resort. The crazy thing I've found is that when my Volvo dealer's parts department can obtain Volvo parts for the car, the prices are almost always LESS than the cost of after market parts "made" to work with Volvo's -- and that's with no mechanic discount, just me walking in off the street!

Right now I'm on restrictions, with no bending, kneeling, or stretching, for another week -- had some stiches removed from a cut on the right thigh a week ago (went to an immediate care facility -- was away for the weekend)and my physician wasn't happy with the way it was done (he couldn't very well tell me a younger ER physician did a good job, right)so either it will be okay in another week, staying closed, or I'll be up for some crazy glue and possibly resuturing the gash).

The thing is I've gotten a lot of information to organize and put together which I can spend the 'restricted time' doing -- with the help of everyone on this site.

Thanks, brickmann

Hi Rich,

Sorry, again, to hear your car is so valueless. $100. Wow. I could expect that from the junkyard, as they say scrap steel has risen some again.

I know mine is monetarily valued by what it would cost to replace it. And that would be difficult to calculate, and certainly unavailable from any blue book. Surely, if we could all help you fix your car, its value would increase.

I'm more than happy to discuss the ownership of old Volvos with a fellow owner. It makes sense there are many Volvo owners who might search the forums for days, or even weeks, gathering advice on how next to proceed on their cars, itching, like you are, to get your hands on, when you can again.

Unfortunately, because you are laid up, you will indeed lose focus, because the entire gamut of 240 driveability troubleshooting lore will be offered, and without a clear understanding of the machine, no method of procedure will emerge, ready for your implementation. I began to understand this when I read your response to Randy, regarding the ski hole. It makes me want to say, "just look, it's right there!" But now I know why you can't do that. Your explanation helps a lot.

All my best,
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore

A backward poet writes inverse.

Art,
SORRY IF THIS DUPLICATES AN EARLIER MESSAGE, BUT I THINK THAT FIRST ATTEMPT GOT TRASHED WHEN I MISKEYED THE KEYBOARD

LIKE TO CLARIFY SOME QUESTIONS RE THE 25 AMP FUSE IN THE ENGINE COMPARTMENT:

1. IS THE RESET INSTANTANEOUS, OR IS THE DATA IN EPROM WHICH HAS TO BLEED OFF BEFORE IT LOSES THE DATA?

2. REGARDLESS OF ROM OR EPROM, SHOULD THE FUSE BE REMOVED FOR AT LEAST ___ MIN OR SECONDS? FOR EXAMPLE 3O SECONDS?

3. WHEN THE RESET IS TO 1-1-1 AGAIN IS THAT THE SYSTEM AS WELL AS THE MEMORY?


4. IN EFFECT IS THAT THE SAME AS WHATEVER HAPPENS WHEN THE CAR IS LEFT STANDING OVERNIGHT OR OVER THE 7-8 HOUR PERIOD?

5. BECAUSE IF IT RESETS THE FUEL INJECTION TO DEFAULT OR COLD START DON'T KNOW THE TECHNICAL TERM FOR THE ZERO STATE?

6. LET ME KNOW ANYTHING ELSE YOU CAN THINK OF REGARDING THE ECU AND THE SETTINGS, LIKE THE TRIM -- ITS A TERM I HAVEN'T HEARD BEFORE.

7. BESIDES THE FUEL INJECTION RELAY, CAN'T I BE HAVING THE SAME PROBLEMS FROM EITHER OR BOTH OF THE ECU AND AMM?
BRICKMANN

Rich, what model year is your brick?
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore

If your dog is fat, you aren't getting enough exercise.

This is a 1989 240 DL sedan with true five speed manual, not electronic OD

Sorry -- the model, year was displayed on my side

Rich

Good, we have two 89's in our family. In your first post it showed up as 99, but it is fixed now.

So far I agree the symptoms match the cracked solder in the fuel injection relay, which is a box with two relays inside, just above the passenger's feet. It is such a common problem, many 240 drivers on this forum keep a spare in their glove boxes.

To rule it out, the suggestion to jumper around it is a great diagnostic: you merely need to bridge fuse 4 and fuse 6 while the fault is occurring.


--
Art Benstein near Baltimore

Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea. -Robert A. Heinlein

Art,
Thanks for the diagnostic and great picture -- where do you guys get these from?

Will be collecting suggestions for the next day or so, then work on the car over the weekend.

BTW - do you know the part number for the relay? Have a local dealer with a good parts manager and willing to hunt for 'vintage' Volvo parts in the system.

IMHO -- I have had more problems with the 25 AMP fuse in the engine compartment than anything else, which is why I carry a package of them at all times -- the "engine" light goes on and the engine cranks as it does with my starting problem, which goes away with new bayonet fuse -- the "bad fuses" test out OK off the car --and in this case there is no 'engine' light on, but I changed the 25A fuse in the engine compartment anyway and it still wouldn't start until the next morning.

/w appreciation, brickmann

An issue with the 25 amp fuse is not usually with the Fuse but with the Fuse Holder.

Just be aware that the Contacts in the Fuse holder are usually the culprit in that area and not the Fuse itself.

My other thoughts of a No start 'hot' engine would be the Relay as discussed and an original Fuel pump with gobs of mileage on it.
On the '89 You should hear the Fuel pump 'buz' when you turn the Key to the 'Run' position. It's become a habit of mine to turn the key, wait for the Buz to stop (About 1 full second) then turn the key to engage the Starter.
Listen for that buz, if you don't hear it... you have a Fuel issue.

--
'75 Jeep CJ5 345Hp ChevyPwrd, two motorcycles, '85 Pickup: The '89 Volvo is the newest vehicle I own. it wasn't Volvos safety , it was Longevity that sold me http://home.no.net/ebrox/Tony's%20cars.htm

Tony -
I keep the fuse holder clean - have noticed it has a tendency to get mucked up from ??? -- use isopropyl alcohol and a shaved down cutip every couple of months whether it needs it or not

Or are there other problems with the fuse holder?

Even when the fuse holder is freshly cleaned I sometimes get an 'engine' light and replacing the 25 amp bayonet fuse takes care of the problem.

The frustrating thing about this is that there is no 'engine' idiot light lighting up on the dash, otherwise the symptoms are the same, but a new bayonet fuse doesn't fix the problem -- so far only waiting time for the system to reset is the only solution.

My fuel pump doesn't sound like a buzz to me, it more of a low-pitched whirring like the old fashioned dentist drills with those yards of belt spinning the head mechanically?

Many heads are better than one, especially one too close to see the problem.

Thanks brickman

A 'Whir' is good.

So long as you hear it the Fuel pump is working.

Off topic:::
At 200 K miles I think I would consider changing the Brushes in the Alternator ..or the easier way is to replace the entire Regulator ($40)

You can take out that Relay, passenger side White, and open and resolder. Very simple operation if you have a small soldering iron. The NO START HOT could be here too. The relay heats up and the connection opens up. Cools down and closes.

Remember on that Fuse holder that the big flat surface is not really teh part that makes electrical contatct with eth fuse but rather the small edges. it is very tough to get the 'touch' surfaces clean and with the Current they need to carry, it could get very hot.

Sorry I'm not pinpointing it down for you but it still could be the Main fuel pump. Next time it doesn't start see if you can get under the car and tap the pump with a chunk of wood.
--
'75 Jeep CJ5 345Hp ChevyPwrd, two motorcycles, '85 Pickup: The '89 Volvo is the newest vehicle I own. it wasn't Volvos safety , it was Longevity that sold me http://home.no.net/ebrox/Tony's%20cars.htm

I'm guessing when it wouldn't start the mechanic had a chance to mess with it or was it starting always for him? Did he jump the Fuel Injection Relay above the passenger's foot. Sounds like something electrical and intermittent. That relay should be checked or swapped out with another one. Jumping the fuel pump is easy and will bypass the relay. I'm guessing the mechanic already tried but just in case.

Here are some pics of the pumps being jumped.

http://cleanflametrap.com/transferPump.htm

The mechanic said the car started the first time he turned the engine over the following Monday. He didn't do anything which is why he called me to ask why I had the car towed to his shop. This is one of the reasons I like this place, in addition to their towing service: they don't just jump in and begin to fix something if it isn't broke.

After we talked he did the diagnostic, finding nothing, which is when he came up with this idea of the fuel injection 'confusion' if the engine was stopped too soon after first starting it -- and supposedly confused about the correct air:fuel mixture the default is to shut down.

After several hours the system 'resets' to base state and starts on first crank.

It doesn't seem intermittent to me, but rather it occurs when this specific set of conditions happens: if the engine is shut down within X minutes of a cold start before it is fully warmed up and the sensor(s) know the correct air:fuel mixture; after 7+ hours it reset and started like a champ.

What I don't understand is why I can't get an error code from the onboard computer, even if it is primitive compared to today's new systems?

Any thoughts about that?

In this 'state' whatever it is, the vehicle is definitely NOT getting fuel, so the suggestion to bypass the fuel injection relay makes sense for diagnostic purposes.

Appreciate your thoughts and input. brickmann