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The brakes are finally installed and ready to go, still no engine but at least this part of the puzzle is finally off the drawing board and installed in the car. For anyone interested in the conversion parts, my bracket design will be available from www.avalancheperformance.com.
Here you can see the brackets from the back side and the new brake lines.
Front suspension all rebuilt and as perfect as I can make it.
Other side. There is some rubbing at full steering lock, but the wheels are 7" wide for heaven's sake.
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View of the front with the relocated horns and relocated oil filter.
For those that are wondering...yes those are 17" wheels, plenty of room for even larger brakes. I'm pretty sure these will be enough to slow me down.
Here they are from the side. I've added the Volvo hub caps and the brakes are sporting Q-Matrix pads.
Rear brakes, now you can finally see them.
Here's the view from the side - I'm liking it a lot. Definately not the look I was going for, but I like it.
Here's my fender cover in place and painted...I polished it up a little. Looking very clean under the hood.
And last but not least, by diff cover had a little leak, so I replaced it with this cover from Summit Racing. I painted it with PPG DCC Black and then brushed the ribs. The ribs needed some modification to clear the panhard rod. Looks loads better than the polished bling most go for.
Now all I need is my damn engine.
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Hi,
I'm looking to do the rear end conversion on my 122 soon. Any reason for using a 240 rather than a 140 rear end?
Regards
JohnH
Sydney Australia
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JohnH, Sydney, Australia
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Its obvious to me that now i am now going have to upgrade my act. Congrats, awesome job. A couple of questions. #1 which hub did you use? 1800E or 140? #2 what is the diameter incl the caliper. I was hoping to use the wilwood caliper with the 120 standard disc,but now have read Dale's thread. I have 2 cars, one with 15" and one with 16" alloy wheels. Could you supply part numbers as i will have to collect the bits and peices slowly due to the lack of folding stuff. Note to JohnH, i am in Sydney and am wrecking a 120 with a 240 rear end and if you want have a peek, contact me. regards David
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Hi David,
I don't know what happened to my previous post...here are the part numbers you need.
The hats are Wilwood 170-0208
Calipers are Wilwood 120-7432-R and 120-7432-L
Rotors are Wilwood 160-5841
Pads Wilwood 15Q-6828K
Hope this helps, you'll of course need the adapters available from Dale at Avalanche Performance.
Craig
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In case Craig is too busy building the engine for that beast, I'll answer the hub question. He's using the stock 122 hubs to retain the 5X114.3 bolt pattern. He had the rear hubs re-drilled for that bolt pattern. On the other hand I am using 1800E front hubs. The 140 front hubs do not fit. Tried them. I'm running 5X108 bolt pattern on my 122. The benefit of running the 5X114.3 is there is an off-the-shelf Wilwood hat that will work. They have nothing in 5X108. They do have undrilled rotor hats but if I recall correctly they had nothing in the depth I needed.
I'll leave Craig to answer about the o.d of the entire assembly as he has done the calculations more recently than I...
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Dale
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Hi David,
I'd like to have a look at your installation. WHere are you? We could take this off board if you want to email me at hendo "at" bigblue "dot" net "dot" au
Regards
JohnH
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JohnH, Sydney, Australia
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posted by
someone claiming to be SteveW
on
Wed Oct 8 08:47 CST 2008 [ RELATED]
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What you have done with your brake upgrade is awesome. IMHO, you can never have too much brakes, especially with an upgraded motor.
I upgraded brakes on my Audi 90 quattro, so I have some similar experience that might be useful to others contemplating what you have done. I adapted Wilwood calipers to the Audi with a custom bracket similar to what you did, and used a disc from a newer Audi that had the same hat geometry, but larger diameter and thickness.
The major parameters I tried to optimize was to use a disc that was slightly larger in diameter (to give more stopping torque), calipers that had about 10% more piston cross-sectional area (to increase pad clamping pressure), and pads that were approximately the same area as the stock pads (so as not to give up the advantage of the larger caliper piston area).
The result is significantly improved braking. I've had this car on the race track in a performance driving event, and the brakes were brilliant. No fade, good pedal feel and inspiring of confidence. Pad wear has been minimal even with slotted discs.
I'm thinking of doing the same kind of upgrade on my 1800ES. The challenge here is finding the best disc to use, and the geometry of the hat. I'd be interested in your hats when you get ready to offer them for resale.
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Hi Steve,
The hats and rotors are off the shelf Wilwood parts - that's the idea with this conversion. Do as much of it with off the shelf stuff as possible. Contact Dale at Avalancheperformance.com he will be supplying the brackets for this application.
Craig
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Very Nice!
The tyres look like a good fit, what size are they?
Are you going to do anything about the master cylinder?
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The wheels are 17X7's and the tires are 205-50-17's. They rub the sway at full lock, so I'll have to be careful when parking, but other than that they fit fine on the stock offset (they are FWD offset with spacers to get back to stock). About the only difference is that my rear track is a little wider than stock as I've got a 240 rear end installed.
Nothing needs to be done to the MC...Wilwood assured me that it has enough capacity to handle the brakes.
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I was thinking shouldn't you change it to dual circuit?
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Awesome job!
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Excuse me if I should have been following this project more closely, but what engine are you waiting on that will cause you to go so fast that such large brakes are required? Or I suppose a better question would be for what purpose are you building this car that it should require such brakes?
'Bout the only thing cooler would be to utilize a set of fixed calipers from the S60R, the painted ones with the Volvo "R"... I imagine the Wilwoods are cheaper and easier to buy and lighter overall, especially with the aluminum hat.
That's an aluminum hub also?
Regards,
--Will
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850 / 240 / Mini
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The engine for this car is going to be a B20 with all the go fast goodies including VPD head/cam/valve train, H-beam rods and custom pistons (longer rods, shorter pistons), lightened flywheel, and the list goes on. It should give me around 160 HP at the crank. While this may not be enough HP to really worry about the brakes, if you look at what complete new front brakes would cost, this conversion is about the same $. On the R-brake side of things, they are Brembo's IIRC and Volvo now wants $1200 for a set of calipers! Wilwoods are $170 a side.
The car is being build for no express purpose (it isn't a show car or a track car etc) this is my car. I intend to show it on occasion and take it to the odd club day at the track. Mostly I'm building it to drive it and because it's fun.
The hats are aluminum, but what you are seeing as the "hub" is in fact a 13mm spacer to get the wheels in the correct location. The hubs are stock.
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Wow, I didn't expect the price difference to be that much! I would have also expected the Wilwood's to be a bit more expensive, but I do suppose they end up selling a pile of them, which could drive down cost. That does start to make the conversion pretty appealing.
I should have guessed about the spacer being that those are FWD wheels. I like the anodize job!
Clearly you've taken your time and not cut many corners. However you use it, you will certainly have a something to be proud of.
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850 / 240 / Mini
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What would you estimate the cost of this setup? The brake component end of things. Calipers, rotors, etc.
Seems like a real sweet setup, I'm sure I'm not the only one mildly interested in having a 122 with brakes like that.
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Let's see, where did I put those reciepts. Yes, now I remember - I ate them. All kidding aside, the cost was as follows.
Rotors $30 each, hats were $85, Calipers were $165, Brake pads $100, new bolts saftey wire and hat bolt kit $40, New studs $20, brake lines (hard) $20. So that's around $740 for the parts minus the cost of the brake adapters ($125) and a set of spacers from Dale. So not including the price of the wheels (around $1000 from Discount Tire) that's just the other side of $1000 for the brakes.
This is around the same price that most people are quoting for the brake upgrade kits you'll find on line for other older cars. Also note, these are Forged Superlite calipers, not the Dynalites that are sold in other kits. Larger pad, and no cotter pin holding the pads in place - the FSL's use a proper bolt. It is also possible to go up to the larger 6 pot caliper with this adapter or go up in size for the rotor with a few changes to the adapter (move the mounting holes out a little). I doubt anyone will want that much front brake, but you never know.
I worked with Wilwood's engineering team to get the correct brake balance without the use of a propotioning valve. They were very helpful and when given all of the details about the 122 were able to perform the calculations quickly. I've not drivin the car yet (see photos - it lacks an engine), but will report back when I'm rolling. Dale has much the same style of set up in his car (accomplished with all custom parts...you don't want to know what that cost) and his car stops on a dime and gives you a nickel change - no reason mine wont as well.
Just on the cost of the rotors alone this is worth doing...Volvo ones are hard to find and are around $225. Wilwoods are between $30 and $80 (now that I remember, mine were the $80 variety) and a new set of pads costs between $40 and $100 depending on compound. Rebuild kits for the caliper are $16 per side. So a complete front brake rebuild would be $60 for rotors, $100 for pads, and $32 for caliper rebuild - less than the cost of a single rotor.
The thing not factored in is time. Working out the adapter took half a day or so, the painting was an evening, putting the rest of the parts together took some time, and getting it all installed for the last time took an hour...now I have to pull them and bleed them straight up - so another hour gone. Doing things for the first time means there isn't a manual.
I'd rate this swap about a 2/5 - if you can change a brake caliper - this swap is in your wheel house. If you paint everything and have to worry about chipping paint or getting brake fluid on anything...the rating goes up.
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The one thing to keep in mind with a conversion like this is wheels. These brakes will not work with the stock 15" wheels. They should fit under 16" wheels and will obviously fit under 17" wheels. So you should factor the cost of a new set of wheels and tires as well.
Most of the parts are off-the-shelf Wilwood parts. The one item that is custom-machined is the caliper bracket adapter. We will be offering those for about $125 a pair, including anodizing.
I'm sure Craig would be happy to put together a list of the other components which should be available at Summit or some other online retailer. If there is demand, we could certainly collect the parts required and offer a complete kit as well.
The "we" part is the small company a partner and I run called Avalanche Performance Technologies. Our website is www.avalancheperformance.com and is old. We are working on a new one as we speak and are developing a number of parts specifically for vintage Volvos, not the least of which will be a replica 123GT horn button to replace all those cracked ones out there. Craig, while not directly involved with the company is a major contributor of ideas and r&d for us...
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Dale
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The wheel size is to be expected and quite honestly not a concern of mine, one question I have is in regards to the wheel spacer adaptor. Would it be a problem to use a different lug spacing? Say a 5 x 5", there are some wheels in a 16"-17" I've been eyeing but only come in a chevy or a full size ford pattern, If possible I'd be fine with a non volvo lug pattern. I'd actually prefer a 16" or 17" wheel.
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Adapters can be made. I sell them regularly. One thing to keep in mind is an adapter needs to be at least 20mm in thickness so be mindful of the offset on the wheels you are looking at. You can play quite a bit with the rear in terms of adding track although that would be toying with a known weak spot in the 122 drivetrain and that's the axles. Adding spacers would, in effect, lengthen the lever on the axle. Craig and I are both running 240 rear ends in our cars so that's not so much of a concern. There seems to be lots of room inside the rear fenders...
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Dale
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Hi Dale,
I haven't been following the project closely but I'm interested in the 240 rear end. My 122S has axle problems and I've got a few 240s in the shed. How much work is involved? I know the panhard rod goes to the other side and the PCd is different. Did you cut the mounts of the 122 axle or fabricate new ones? Any dramas or other issues?
Regards
JohnH
Sydney Australia
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JohnH, Sydney, Australia
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Hi John,
This is my car...not Dale's (although they are similar) - there are some very important differences. Dale has a '67 and I've got a '66. This means that the rear axle install is slightly different between the cars. In Dale's case, the brackets from his old rear were removed (after a jig was fabricated to locate them on the donor axle) and were welded onto the 240 rear with the brackets removed.
The '66 (AKA my car) had the pressed steel torque rods that were not re-fit to the 240 rear. Instead I chose to do a hybrid between the 240 and the 122. I used the 240 torque rods on top of the axle and a custom fabricated set of lower arms to locate the axle. This involved more fabrication as the front of the axle locating arms had to be fabricated onto the car (welded on new brackets) that allow for perpendicular bushings instead of the factory bolt/bushing arrangement.
The following threads explain:
http://www.brickboard.com/RWD/volvo/1237375/120-130/240_rear_end_conversion_progress.html
http://www.calgaryvolvoclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1305
It's not all that hard to do - but it isn't a walk in the park if you've got a '66 either. The arm arrangement on the '67 just makes it a little easier as you don't have to mess around with all of the other fabrication (arms, mounts etc).
Craig
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Hi Craig,
Thanks for the reply and I second everyone's comments about the meticulous quality of your workmanship.
My car is a 67 so it sounds as though it should be comparatively easy. I'll pull out both diffs (144 and 122) soon and start the comparison process.
Regards
John
Sydney Australia
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JohnH, Sydney, Australia
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Beautiful job! thats going to stop on a dime I'm sure.
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I have 4 piston wilwoods on my 544 racer and used a setup like yours and you will find that you will have a hard time bleeding the front calipers because they are not vertical,the bleeders need to be straight up to get all the air, talk to Wilwood people and they will tell you about it. I removed one of the mounting bolts and swing the caliper vertical then bleed it. for years it always took one pump to get full pedal during a race,but talking to Wilwood they told me about having the bleeders straight up ,now the pedal it hard all the time. Richard
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So that's the trick...I tried over the weekend and didn't get them to be fully hard.
Cheers,
Craig
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attention to detail is what separates the cream of the crop from the rest.a commendable job.by the way the wilwood master cylinder and clutch mcyl. are direct bolt on to the 122.i have both installed.did you investigate a Wilwood caliper for the stock rotor? is the weight of the vented caliper similar to the stock volvo rotor?
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There were two reasons for going to a bigger, vented rotor. The first is obviously more stopping power by means of torque (essentially a longer lever) and more heat dissipating ability with the vented rotors. As well, the rotors are very inexpensive should they ever need to be replaced. Sticking with stock rotors means expensive replacements and possible overheating with the huge pads those FSL calipers use...
We are aware of the Wilwood master cylinders. I have one on my car. The nice part about going to a Wilwood unit is you can downsize the master cylinder piston size to increase feel and pedal travel when you're not using a brake booster. I started with a 1" and it was way too hard. I'm using a 3/4" now and it works nicely. We'll see how it does when I get the 6-piston calipers on the front and replace the stock rear calipers with Wilwood 4-piston calipers. I suspect I may need to go a little bigger on the m/c simply because of the volume of fluid I'll be moving...
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Dale
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I didn't even consider keeping the stock rotor - they are expensive and relatively heavy. The rotor hat on this set up is aluminum, so it is considerably lighter than the stock set-up. A factor that is compensated for by the weight of wheels as far as unsprung weight goes for sure. These are off the shelf parts - that was the objective on this adaptation - keep the price as reasonable as possible.
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Guys,
Put me on the contact list for when the first batch of adapters come back from the machine shop. I know you tried like hell to fit that Wilwood setup under a 15 inch wheel and could not find the clearance. Looking at your photos, I cannot see where it fouled. Where was it hitting?
Craig, if you do go to dual circuit, consider a dual mc setup with a balance bar. With your attention to detail, it should come out very nice. There is a car on volvoadventures that has a photo of a race & rally car with a frame mounted to the pedal box supporting two brake and a clutch mc.
--sd
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Mr. Shannon DeWolfe
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The calipers won't fit under the widened stock wheels that I had made (stock offset). The problem was where the steel wheel get's narrow. Sure they would fit under the barrel of the wheel (rear part), but where the stock steelies curve in towards the mounting surface, the calipers would hit. I needed something like 20mm of spaceing outward to make it work. So in theory, if you converted a set of stock steelies to a wider rim and made the offset -45mm and added a spacer it would work. In reality, it is just simpler to go with either a 16 or 17" alloy wheel. While were spending lots of money, I've thought about getting a set of alloy wheels made that look like the stock wheels but are 17"
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Amazing Work! God you remind me how poor my car looks...
Hey... Aren't you a Geographer? Wait, that explains nothing!
My only question here is the one I *always* ask.
Why do you guys go so bazonk crazy with the awesome engine, wheel, body, etc upgrades and then leave in that single-circuit unboosted master cylinder?
I know the stock MC works fine, but for redundancy alone why not go at least split circuit with a dualie MC?
Looking at your amazing fabrication work here (and on other projects) I don't get why the brake MC is so consistently neglected in such projects.
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Yes, I'm a Geographer by day - mechanic of some sorts by evenings and weekends. I have thought about changing the single circuit system to a dual (even mentioned that to my wife as I was bleeding the brakes this morning) and just haven't had the vision for how to make it look clean. A split system would be better for sure, perhaps a use the original MC as a master to a dual slave located somewhere else. I'll probably work on this for the next car (a 122 wagon is on the drawing board).
As far as the boosting goes, sure it would be nice, but I like the manual brakes. As a hockey player, I've got legs the size of tree trunks and can make the brakes work just fine. The only downside is when I go to drive my DD and hammer on the brakes and almost put myself through the windshield!
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"I'll probably work on this for the next car (a 122 wagon is on the drawing board)."
When do you plan on getting a wagon project rolling, I've been toying with selling the 67 220 Canadian I have as a daily driver. I'm content with driving it for now but when my 142 is back together I'll be looking at passing it on I think.
Chris
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Hi Chris,
This is the car that's originally from Calgary? Either way, I'm going to be looking in the spring - could be sooner if you were really going to get pass it along.
Craig
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Yes it's the same one, originaly from calgary. I'll drop you an email off board in the next day or so.
Spring time sounds about right, I made alot of progress on the 142's body this summer. Hope to have it back together and driving by the spring, then the 66 220 project can get back into the garage.
C.
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Does that still qualify as a 122?
I was going to say that the ride height looked a little high, then I realized there is no engine in the car...
--
Jonathan Knauer - 94 945Ti - fun!
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I sure hope it still qualifies...but it sure isn't stock anymore.
Craig
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WOW
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Mr. Shannon DeWolfe
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