|
|
|
I do not have "special tool", and have tried several ways to keep pully from turning. None worked though I got to where the engine was compressing & streaching the motor mounts. Lots of "blaster". Any tips, tricks, suggestions...?? Oh, it's a 93, 245.
Thanks.
|
|
-
|
|
|
Again, thanks for all the input, and offering of tool (Bill). A lot of concerns were covered in the many replies. As mentioned in earlier post, I was able to loosen bolt and remove pulley (belt has been replaced). In reading that post my approach sounds a bit "Rube Goldberg" ish. Hey, it worked. I forgot to mention (in that post) that I placed a breaker bar between the sway bar & alternator bracket. This helped to reduce engine movement and seem to give me more leverage/force. I used same method in replacing pulley and bolt (44ftlbs + 90º for the B230 according to Bently). In aligning timing marks I picked up the habit of checking dizzy rotor alignment as well.
Enjoyed "grandson" tale.
Again, many thanks.
Enjoy.
Al
|
|
-
|
|
|
You wrote: "...replacing pulley and bolt (44ftlbs + 90º for the B230 according to Bently)...."
I sure hope you made a typo, viz. "+ 90º". If not, that's actually too tight. I'm afraid it's commonly known that Bentley printed this error -- it should be 60 degrees, not 90 degrees, beyond the initial 44 lb-ft, so you've overtightened it by turning it an additional 30 degrees.
Even Lucid, in one of his messages below, reminded you that it's 60 degrees in
http://www.brickboard.com/RWD/volvo/1290677/220/240/260/280/crankshaft_pulley_removed.html
Of course, Bentley also says "additional 1/6 turn", which of course is 60 degrees, not 90 degrees.
Like I said, I hope it's just a typo.
And by the way, don't forget to follow up 600-1,000 miles later with a readjustment of the tensioner (through the little inspection port in the timing belt cover).
Good luck.
|
|
-
|
|
|
I have the tool, and I will loan it to you if you pay shipping both ways.
Bill
|
|
-
|
|
|
I too have tried the rope trick with reservations but was amazed at how easily it worked. I bought about 36 inches of the yellow nylon rope. Fed enough rope in number on sparkplug hole just after TDC and the non abrasive nylon of the rope provided a cushioned stop. It was a breeze. I keep the rope sealed in a plastic bag to keep it clean for future use. My only question is if this practice has any injurious effect on the connecting rod bearing. I am sure the forces of the engine are much greater than any rope trick.
John
|
|
-
|
|
|
"I am sure the forces of the engine are much greater than any rope trick."
Why are you so certain that this is true?
I know the B230 develops about 140 ft-lb of torque. And while I have never had the reason to measure the amount of torque required to tighten or loosen the crank fastener, from the grunt factor and the length of the breaker bar I've had to use, I'd say that it is a good bit more that 140 ft-lbs.
Other than the unknown (at least to me) amount of torque that it takes to twist off the crank fastener, a real concern with the "rope trick" is that the piston is near TDC before it locks up. So, in resisting any particular torque, the force the connecting rod is subjected to becomes ever greater in a very nonlinear way.
Have you ever heard of someone trying to start an engine which has a leaking head gasket and a cylinder is filled with coolant? "Bent rod" is sometimes spoken in the same breath.
Rich
|
|
-
|
|
|
My tip is to buy or fabricate the counterhold tool which is supposed to be used for this job. They used to cost about $50 and that is money well spent.
Over many years, I've heard of various ways to lock a crank from turning and I think all have shortcomings and introduce uncertainty to the mix. For example, I can't say how many times I have heard to use a breaker bar bearing against a frame rail or the ground, then hit the starter. But, I know exactly how many times I heard a guy say whenever he try the starter/breaker bar scheme, he ended up with the crank nose hanging on the end of the breaker bar - once.
The rope trick seems rather innocuous until you consider the forces which are applied to the rods when doing it. I don't know exactly how much torque it takes to stretch that big-assed crank pulley fastener one flat past tight, but I know it is a hell of a lot. And that is just for tightening without the additional stiction of a fastener which has been parked in one place for years. I realize that all things engineered have a sizable safety factor applied to them, but, why chance exceeding the limits of the design when it is unnecessary?
Here's something to think about: If you park the car on a grade, in gear with the emergency brake on and you use a five foot long breaker bar on the crank pulley, will the fastener break free or the car move first?
Rich
|
|
-
|
|
|
Thanks to all for input. Had heard of "rope trick" but leary of stuffing anything cept fuel fumes in cylinders. At any rate, ended up using a useless crow bar (only one ear at nail puller end) which fit into pulley slot. Angled it to give resistance to bolt removal. Secured it to front sway bar with an old muffler clamp. A bit of "grunt power" and bolt came free. Amazingly, timing marks stayed in place.
Again, thanks to all.
Enjoy.
|
|
-
|
|
"Amazingly, timing marks stayed in place."
There's no reason they shouldn't stay in place, unless the belt was broken. Just loosening the bolt doesn't change anything.
The Cam and intermediate sprockets are "synched" by the belt to the crank sprocket, which is keyed to the crankshaft until the pulley is removed.
I'm glad you got the bolt loose, but there is nothing to fear about using the rope. It's an old, tried and true method. But in any case, be sure you find a way to torque that bolt properly. The spec is 45 ft lbs, then an additional 60* of "angle tightening.
I don't know of anyone here ever having a problem with the rope method, but there has been more than one report of problems, even damage, from improperly torqued pulleys coming loose.
|
|
-
|
|
|
the rope trick is so elegant and simple in its execution a child can do it once shown how to infallibly identify crank tdc.
in fact i showed one of my grandsons eager to try his hand at car repair while grandpa watched.
he
removed all spark plugs....no compression makes it easy to turn balancer when you are 10 and stand on a box to reach things or have grandpa hold you by the waist with tool loaded arm hanging over the radiator
get chopstick and flashlight... turn balancer with socket until the piston in
#1 is as high as it will go. insert chopstick into #1 to verify
now turn balancer 1/4 turn max clockwise (towards drivers fender)
insert rope into #1 ....we like to spray starch on cotton clothes line to make it a bit stiffer when stuffing it into the cylinder...THIS IS THE ONLY INCONVIENienT PART OF THE JOB as far as i can see
now turn balancer towards PASSENGER fender until the it can not be turned anymore...that should be very very close to TDC........using a breaker bar loosen bolt.
my oldest grandson did exactly this over the weekend to remove his moms balancer on a 940. i just watched to provide moral support.
and jackson sends thanks to lucid for sharing this dirt simple technique.
|
|
-
|
|
|
Hi Ted,
Thanks for that eloquent support on the rope trick, but when you say:
"...get chopstick and flashlight... turn balancer with socket until the piston in #1 is as high as it will go. insert chopstick into #1 to verify..."
I don't see where you've also verified that he's at TDC on the Compression stroke.
That's why I suggest checking the #1 and #2 cam lobes, because the pulley mark also aligns at TDC Exhaust (and we don't want to mash the rope against any open valves!).
I think Don Foster's FAQ instructions say to feel for compression at the plug hole, which is also a good idea. I just felt that a simple visual check on the cam lobes was a bit easier. I'm sure your grandson would agree.
|
|
-
|
|
|
we removed the dizzy cover to ascertain the location of the rotor against the scratch he made on the outside of the dizzy itself as to the location of #1.
..........
the expression on his face after doing this job and buttoning everything back up and then sitting in the drivers seat, turning on the car to a silky smooth idle was wonderful for a grandfather to see. i badly wanted to put him on a large pillow or book and take him out on the road with me in the passenger seat for a test drive. i did this with all my kids at that age but then we lived on a farm in the country...not a suburb of greater boston. and besides my daughter nixed the idea.
|
|
-
|
|
|
That's a good way too, and your grandson learned a little more about how engine things inter-relate as a result. Maybe I'll add it to the canned post. When I wrote my version, I was thinking of how I do it, pretty much all in one place.
|
|
-
|
|
Hi Bruce,
Reading this thread, I sense it will turn into another classic we look at for years down the road. It is sort of about habits and preferences, at least in the fine points of rope procedures, so I'd thought to contribute what I've found and, in one case, we learned together.
On checking position at TDC Compression: I just did this once again very recently, so I remember using the "chopstick" approach, which in my case was just a handy tie wrap. I was mostly verifying the B230 damper had not slipped and the timing mark agreed. Then, to be sure the valves were closing, I put my thumb on the hole. Just habit, I suppose, I could have grabbed a flashlight instead.
On the tool and preferences: I looked at the crank pulley, and the distance to the tensioner mount, and guessed that tool being sold for this must be huge. I've only seen pictures, without anything to relate size to, so now I understand why they charge what they do for it. But that rope stores easily, and works on every motor from Allis-Chalmers to Yugo.
On getting the rope in the hole: Now, recall using a 4" length of fuel hose (okay it was heater hose) to guide the rope insertion? Seemed to cut 30 seconds from the job, if digging up the piece of hose wouldn't waste more time than that. Spray starch sounds just as useful. Its all about what is handy at the moment.
On habits: What I always forget before pulling the belt... to break loose the cam and I-shaft sprocket bolts (saving the need to fetch the air wrench) -- and to have a nail or drift handy for the tensioner -- and to look closely at the alignment marks, just to note whether someone in there last (me perhaps) didn't make up for a tooth or two on the I-shaft with a tooth on the distributor. Always forget. That's the downside of habit.
Good habits include getting the crank bolt tight with the sprocket in the notch and retensioning the belt after a good driving workout.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
When you've seen one shopping center you've seen a mall.
|
|
-
|
|
|
Although I own both counterhold tools for the B230 and B21/23, I no longer use either one. Instead, I prefer a piece of cotton clothesline (nylon or similar is OK too), for what is called "The Rope Trick". It's quicker and easier than the "tool", and the basic steps are simple:
1 - Pull plugs and rotate crank to #1 0° TDC Compression
2 - Verify #1 and #2 valves closed - look thru oil fill hole: #1 cam should be pointed inboard and up about 45°, with #2 pointed horizontally outboard.
3 - Rotate crank about 90° past TDC.
4 - Stuff about 3 feet of clothesline into # 1 plug hole, leaving 6" outside (feeding the rope in thru a short length of heater hose makes the job even quicker).
5 - Rotate the crank backwards until the packed rope stops further rotation.
6 - Use socket, breaker bar, and pipe extension to loosen pulley bolt.
7 - Tighten bolt the same way, but start with crank about 90° before #1 TDC Comp.
8 - When tight to spec, back the crank up a little a little and remove clothesline.
To my knowledge, this is the only "trick" holding tool alternative that allows tightening the bolt to book spec of 44 lb ft, then an additional 60° (B230), or 122 ft lbs. for B21/23.
Here's what some first-time users had to say:
• "The "rope trick" for holding the engine still while removing the harmonic balancer bolt worked like a charm. Honestly, I doubted that it would, but WOW!"
• "I finally had an opportunity today to use one of the "rope" tricks to help take off the crank bolt. All I can say is - it worked like a charm! Two seconds and I had the crank bolt off..."
* "I did this a few weeks ago exactly as ... described and it couldn't have been easier." 5/29/05
• "....the rope trick worked like a charm to loosen and tighten the crank pulley bolt!!," 12/28/05
• "tryed the . . . method without any luck but the rope trick worked fine to remove the pully bolt" 1-10-06
• "(thanks for the rope trick! Worked like a charm.)" 6-26-06
• "i just completed the task using the rope trick and my opinion is that it is extremely gentle as compared to jamming a screw driver anywhere. it required about 5 to 6 ft. of 1/4 inch rope and made mission impossible mission simple."
• 4-25-07 at http://www.brickboard.com/RWD/index.htm?id=1178645.
• 7-7-08 at at "Rope Trick Rocks".
|
|
-
|
|
|
Hi.
Just curious: there is a tool for the B21/23 also? I have one of the tools for the B230, but I never saw a reference for any tool for the earlier engines.
Do you have a part no.?
Thanks.
BTW, the only reason I hesitate about using the rope trick is the ambiguousness of the instructions, particularly "...#1 cam should be pointed inboard and up about 45°, with #2 pointed horizontally outboard...."
That is, with the engine (and its valve train) in the middle of the car's engine compartment (i.e., on the centerline), what would the terms inboard and outboard mean? To me, inboard means inward, or "medial" or toward the centerline or middle of the compartment, and outboard would mean outward or "lateral" or toward the sides of the car. Do you mean left (toward the driver's side) or right (toward the passenger's side) for one or the other of those terms, and if so, which is which?
Thanks again.
|
|
-
|
|
|
The B21/23 tool, 9995034, is a ring that fits into the pulley's center recess. The ring has holes to fit over 5 of the 10mm bolt heads that hold the pulley halves together. The ring also has a forward-facing 1/2" socket for a breaker bar.
I always found it awkward to use, since the tool has to be held in place by one breaker bar while another one is used (one-handed) to juggle for the big pulley bolt socket. And I often found the tool's purchase on those small pulley bolt heads was easily dislodged, making it tricky to apply torque on the big bolt with the other hand, while squeezing the two breaker bars toward each other.
My thinking on "inboard" and "outboard" is based on the engine's tilt making the camshaft actually being to the right of the car's centerline. To me "inboard" is then toward the CL (left), while "outboard" means away from the CL (right).
I don't like to use "left" and "right" because for some reason people no longer sense that a car has a left and right side, leading to the (redundant) use of "driver's' and "passenger's" side being required baggage every time. [Yet we don't feel compelled to refer to the "Pilot's" or "Co-Pilots" side when speaking of an airplane's left and right sides.]
|
|
-
|
|
|
Hi. Thanks for your critique of the B21/23 tool -- it doesn't seem as useful as the B230's tool. I guess I'll use your rope trick (and thanks also for clarifying the sides) for my '84's Timing Belt, etc., work; although for my B230, the holding tool really is too easy (I've got IPD's improved version) to pass up.
Best regards,
|
|
-
|
|
|
"I guess I'll use your rope trick..."
I wish I could claim credit, but I'll bet it's older than I am. I think Don Foster first posted on it here, as it was in the FAQ when I came on board in '04. I just picked up the torch when Don backed away due to other interests or something -- although he has posted a few times lately.
|
|
|
|
|
