Hi all,
my 122 stalled out this early evening. I thought perhaps the battery was too low. Just prior to stalling out I had been charging my ipod thru one of those coleman chargers thru the cigaretter lighter which may have been too much for it. I tried to jump it with cables hooked up to a fellows 4 cylinder toyota but had no success. I got a new 850 battery even stronger than my 750. Still i am having no luck. I have power to the basic electric functions i.e. lights/dome light gauges. Perhaps its just my starter. Any ideas? And if it is a starter are there any little tweeking that i need to do to fix the problem or do i just need to order a new starter. Any help would be great.

thanx

J.

So.... did you get it running?

New battery did crank, though engine didn't start immediately and as it was cranking slowly, I didn't want to drain battery. Checked distributor for gap and spark at points - check. pulled fuel line from front carb and cranked to check for fuel - check. Didn't have spark plug socket so couldn't pull plugs to examine. The distributor cap was for some other dizzy, though it did fit the distributor (and had gotten the car this far) - the half moon for the points bolt was @ the 1 o'clock position instad of the 8 o'clock position - I think it was an 058 cap, though not positive - he had his old cap which appeared correct, and with minor corrosion which I carefully scraped off with curved end of feeler gauge; cleaned the rotar contacting end lightly. Reassembled everything and it started right up.

A far above average body on this specimen (he found it in Tuscon and towed it back to Conn.!!), with some minor mechanical things to be sorted out. Definitely a keeper - great rust free body.
Throttle shafts tight. piston lift synchronous off idle. pretty good.

One question: After warming it up and checking the carbs over - rear carb had no damper oil, so off to find a gas station and an (almost) empty ATF container in the trash (no luck) and so to an auto parts store for a can of carb cleaner and ATF. Pulled the carbs apart and CLEANED everything before reassembling. Rear jet tube somehow popped out of float bowl, so I had to remedy that (remove float bowl, remove gland nut and washer and rubber, reassmble, blah, blah -(this is on the street with no O ring pick, but he had an awl which did the trick)

Even with ATF, the rear carb had much less resistance when lifted by hand than the front - switched the dampening rods and same happened at front carb, so it's the dampening valve - what gives? they appeared to be identical. Without disassembling them and measuring I couldn't swear that all of the bits were identical(ly worn). Did they make these with different ID brass cylinders or different thickness washers?

Fixed the heater control valve cable (came unclamped at the lever end) so he can now turn the heat off.

There's a mild thunk when hitting the brakes - I think it's probably rear brake adjustment, but could also be U joint, or front suspension (steering rod end or tie rod ends or idler arm - didn't have a floor jack. Needs a new steering coupling disk - not frayed, but distorted. THere's a bit of a leak fromt he thermostat housing - J has a new T'stat and gasket at home, so he'll watch this leak until he can replace it - he also has new upper and lower hoses, and a new heater control valve which he thought he needed , but may not now that the cable's working - there may have been a small leak at the valve; could be from deformed copper pipe and not the valve.

The plan is to get together again sometime in the future to attack some of the other maintenance. I also want to check the compression - recounts that he has blowby, or at least smoke on decelleration, so I recommended getting new valve stem seals (the ones he has are old, and brittle and not doing anything.) I'm hoping it isn't rings and that he doesn't have to do a rebuild, but compression test will tell much more.

Good on you, Danny. I love this place and guys like you.

Seasons greeting all.
--
Barry -- 1967 122S 'Betty'

I second that motion. I was in the prescence of a master yesterday.
Danny is the coolest! Although im still only a white belt in the martial arts of volvo mechanics i am inspired to further my growth and understanding of these cars. He is an awesome teacher. Thank you brickboard and everybody on here who posted their feedback. All of the info given was helpful and greatly appreciated.

Happy Holidays!

J.

J;

If you could not get it started while getting a jump (parallel connecting another known good battery) you have a fuel or ignition (or more serious, i.e. timing gear) problem which likely also caused motor to quit in the first place (and this needs to be corrected FIRST...if the motor stopped running on its own, there's little reason to believe that it will start again before the reason which caused it to quit in the first place is resolved)...I doubt that an inverter plugged in to the power system caused the motor to quit, but it's tough to tell without checking the system voltage...sounds like you will need the assistance of a more experienced Volvo-guy to correct this, so I hope Danny can help as he's offered...

Terminology clarification: "Cranking Over"... means that the starter motor engages the engine flywheel and slowly turns the engine under electrical power while the fuel and IGN system are active in the hopes that the motor would start (catch and continue to run on its own)...the term is a holdover from days when the driver would need to insert a hand-crank into the crankshaft through a hole in the front of vehicle and do the (serious) work of cranking until the motor caught...back then, you had to be a real man to be a driver for that reason...thanks to electric starting motors, we're spared that...and now even women can "start" an engine. When you try to "start" you engine, this "cranking" is what needs to happen...clicking only is not enough and needs to be chaeked out...either battery is dead and doesn't have enough charge (see below) to run electric motor, or a poor connection is not getting the power to the electric motor or a problem in the solenoid/starter-motor assembly exists...sorry, that's all that can be stated definately without further checks...

The Battery is in a vehicle to supply this electric starting motor ("starter")...after that, you literally don't need it.... the generating system should supply the electrical power to the IGN system to allow the motor to be selfsustaining...(and on the side, should put out a lot more with which to recharge the battery for the next time you might need to start)...that's why we also call it the "charging system"...

Since the starter takes a substantial amount of current (the most in the vehicle) it needs to be connected with the fattest wiring, and all the connections must be clean and tight...then, to supply all of the current to do the starting, the battery must be in a good state of charge, and this is obviously the job of the "charging system".

Shannon; Thanks for the reference as always and for trying to help, but I must correct you on a couple of points. Starting and IGN are a mission critical functions and so purposely not protected by fuses...pull all your fuses and you can start and drive just fine...so this is not a place where J needs to look... You are certainly correct about the high current connections needing to be in good shape, but terminal 54 of the IGN SW is not supplied by Fuse1, terminal 54 is the OUTPUT of the IGN SW which supplies Bat power (from terminal 30) to the Fuse Block (when key is in IGN ON position)...remember the Bat is at the top of the power chain and supplies EVERYTHING in the vehicle (and the charging system is in parallel with it and takes over when it's putting out...that is also why there is a SEAMLESS changeover from the generating system to the battery supplying vehicle power when the generating system fails...the only indication of a problem being the AMP Indicator coming ON).

This seamless changeover between battery and/or generating system supplying the vehicle power also occurs when the generating system is putting out only a marginal output...enough to keep the AMP Indicator OFF, but not to charge the battery...so this this is where the big problem occurs...the car runs fine (off the battery)...the charging system puts out just enough to keep the AMP Indicator is OFF but not put anything back into the battery...infact the battery slowly discharges (so we're blissfull in our ignorance of any problems)...right until the battery is totally discharged (and now were completely toast!...engine quits, and we have no starting power...all right out of the blue!) That is why I recommend a monitoring device of the electrical system in the form of an AMPmeter...that way we can be aware of problems well before being stranded...but I'm rambling...

Good Hunting

Merry Christmas all,

...but I must correct you on a couple of points. Starting and IGN are a mission critical functions and so purposely not protected by fuses...

I knew that. ;-)

It isn't the first time I've posted erroneous information and it most likely will not be the last. You gotta watch me all the time. :-p

See, J, I told you Ron knew this stuff.

--
Mr. Shannon DeWolfe -- (I've taken to using Mr. because my name tends to mislead folks on the WWW. I am a 51 year old fat man ;-) -- KD5QBL

....he embodies the spirit of the vintage Volvo community!

I just got off the phone with him...but I'll let him do the follow-up post and explain what he found...

Shannon; No harm no foul!

Seasons Greetings Brickboard!

Hi, this is J btw, i came by your place on 14th st months ago and you gave me the pdf version of the green manual. Anyways,im still pretty novice with diagnosing and fixing my car. Ive heard a bunch of times "is the starter cranking" but im not quite sure if i know what this means. When i turn the key the fan is turning and some kind of struggling/clicking noise is coming from the starter. Does this mean its cranking? I tried tapping it with a hammer but had no such luck. I think i may need to read up on the starter in the manual before i begin taking it apart and fixing the solenoid as george suggested. Not too mention such a job might be a bit difficult on the side of 7th ave. Am I screwed? Should i get it towed back to its home in ct? any more ideas.

j.

If this isn't fixed in the morning (saturday), give me a shout. I'm in lower manhattan. My car and cables are not here, but if needs be I can come up and try and help you out. Sounds like a dead battery and and/or poor ground. I can bring a bew tools and if we can grab a jump from a cab, I think we can get you back on the road.

D

Hey Danny, it's most likely not going to be fixed by morning. Im staying at my brother's in the east village and was planning on staying the night and hoping some more info from the volvo wizards on here would come along. I did replace the old battery with a new and more powerful one, yet without any turn over success. So if you are interested i would love/appreciate any help you could give.

thanx

J.

john

Just checked and saw that you're still here. email me off line with a number to call and we'll arrange a time - noon or later and I can help. I'm in lower east side (2nd and Houston). I don't want to leave a phone number on the board. I've sent you an email with my cell number - don't know if this email forwarding system is working or not.
My email is:
danieltalpers "AT" nyc "DOT" rr "DOT" com.

Good morning J.,

i have indeed and there are no fuses blown.

I am glad you've got some help coming this morning. Two heads are always better than one.

The reason I asked about the fuses; you indicated that the car stalled and after stalling would not start, only clicking at the starter solenoid. Just prior to failure, you had an inverter plugged in to the cigar lighter. I was looking at the wiring diagram. The power wire that feeds the cigar lighter is tied to terminal 54 on the ignition switch. Feeding that terminal is the main fuse (the short one at the top). I should have realized that there would not have been any clicking from the solenoid if that fuse was blown. DUH.

I realized my error as soon as I posted the message but let it stand because fuses are always a good place to start with electrical problems. I had hoped that Ron Kwas had seen your post and would jump in on the discussion; he has about 200 times more experience on 122S wiring than I do.

Now that I've had a nap and have read again your first post, I think the problem might be the ground strap between the engine and the frame. The series of unfortunate events, correct me if I've got this wrong, were; the car died. When you attempted to restart it, the starter only clicked. You installed another battery and have also had at least one Good Samaritan try to jump start the vehicle. The engine does not spin when the starter is engaged, correct?

If I'm up to speed on the symptoms, then I agree with Danny, the problem is almost certainly a bad ground. There is voltage available but no place for current to flow for the starter.

That may not explain why the car stalled in the first place. The ignition coil requires very little current (compared to the starter) to work. Even with a resistive ground, there should have been enough current flow to keep the engine running. Once you get the starter spinning, you may have another bug in the ignition circuit. But you've got to address the symptoms one at a time.

Is the car automatic or standard? If it is a standard shift car you can run a jumper wire to the + side of the coil, roll start the car, and drive it home. If the car is an automatic, I think it will not roll start. Some older automatics would generate enough fluid pressure at about 35MPH to spin the engine. But I think the BW35 may not.

Do keep us informed.
--
Mr. Shannon DeWolfe -- (I've taken to using Mr. because my name tends to mislead folks on the WWW. I am a 51 year old fat man ;-) -- KD5QBL

By all means check the earth strap from engine to frame (usually from the bell housing to the chassis, just above the exhaust pipe so not so easy to get to from the top). Also remove and clean the connections on the main wire from the battery at the starter motor post. Check the cable is good at the starter end and not corroded under the insulation. Check and clean the small cables at the same time. They can also corrode and break down, sometimes working with only one strand.
I hope you can get it going OK so you can get back to Ct for Christmas otherwise you might need alternate economic transport.
http://www.chinatown-bus.org/
Good luck

J.,

Just prior to stalling out I had been charging my ipod thru one of those coleman chargers thru the cigaretter...

Have you checked for a blown fuse?

--
Mr. Shannon DeWolfe -- (I've taken to using Mr. because my name tends to mislead folks on the WWW. I am a 51 year old fat man ;-) -- KD5QBL

Shannon,

i have indeed and there are no fuses blown.

Is the starter cranking at all? When the bushings on a lot of starters get old and wear they can leave enough play for the shaft to bind. Often a hard rap on the starter with a hammer will unbind it- but this is only if it isn't cranking at all. If it is cranking but not starting the problem must be something else.

If you know where the starter solenoid is on top of the starter you might
try jumping the two big terminals where the battery cable hooks and the one
below it. Do this with the ignition turned on and it might start.
If it cranks when you do this you have a solenoid problem.
If you can take the solenoid apart it is fairly easy to fix.
(You have to remove the starter first and it is a bit of a job to get the
solenoid off. You have to remove potting from screw holes, etc. Then you
have to unsolder the wires to take it apart.)
Can you push it to start it?
If you get a new starter SAVE the old one (unless there is a $$$ core charge!)
The Cel phone charger might be a contributing factor but if the starter won't
crank with a good battery and good (clean connections)cables, it is not the
main problem. When the car is shut down, charge the phone from 110v.

--
George Downs, Bartlesville, Heart of the USA!