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I had not yet posted on this annoying problem, but the solution finally presented itself in an odd place. Here's the whole situation in case it helps anyone.
Since last week, I've noticed some weird running behavior in my HIF carburated B18. Despire being tuned to recommended and published mix setting (surprisingly rich) I've had some engine trouble on four separate ocassions since monday last week. Initially the car started acting like it was dying on the highway. Flooring the pedal only gave me about 55mph. This was a fun experience in high-speed st. louis rush hour. Pulling the choke made no difference at all. Strangely, the problem vanished in the morning.
Next time I drove her, something similar happened. Car started acting like it was being reigned in, a full accelerator barely pushed it forward, very weird. So, I didn't drive the car again until last night. It was fine for most of my short trip, but coming home, it began to act like it was almost out of gas. I got her home and parked it until this morning. First thing AM I filled it up, Ran fine for the morning commute, and for my afternoon errand.
Btw: my errand was trip out to one of the inner-ring cities to visit a potential new car - a 1973 P1800ES. The visit to the car was good. I think I'm going to buy it as soon as I can get the cash together (especially since the 122S has been funky).
Well, the 1800ES was located back in a rather hilly area. Getting in was fine, getting back out became very tricky. The Amazon suddenly lost power clumbing a steep ridge. I had to roll back and go back part of the way I came from. However, I was in a valley of sorts, and every attempt to get out was foiled by a moderate incline. I felt trapped in an unfamiliar part of st. louis at the end of the day.
It appeared that the Amazon would no longer climb hills. Funny though... the engine wasn't dying, just no power... I pulled off near the top of the last hill that I had failed on and took a look at my carbs. They idled barely. Full throttle barely gave me 2000 rpms. I removed the air filter and found no change. But, on a whim, I dialed down my recently switched Fuel Pressure Regulator (inline between my newer pump and my carbs). The car immediately began to idle well. This was odd, because the FPR was set for 3PSI... I jumped in a revelled in the sudden return of power. I quickly climbed out of the valley and headed for home.
Was it just set incorrectly...?
It was not that simple. I made it about 2 miles before the problem came back (in an open area where I pulled into a grocery store lot). A quicky check showed me that no change had ocurred in the FPR setting, but the symptoms were the same. So I dialed it down some more and gradually, the engine roared back.
This got me home.
The FPR is clearly bad. I've switched back to the old fpr and things have so far been fine. The old unit has been on the car for years, but all problems appeared with the newer unit.
A faulty after-market unit may be a fluke, but I've also been warned that the newer fuel pumps (like mine) push way too much fuel into the carbs, so an FPR is a near necessity. These dang things are $25.00 too..
So, what sort of options exist to regulate the flow of gasoline from the pump to the carbs?
--
1967 P220 (My every-other-daily driver...), 1971 P1800 (The Parts Car), 1972 145S (1993-1997), 1977 245 DL (1993-1999), 1983 245 (1998-2001), 1986 745 GLE (1997-2005), 1990 740 GL (2003-4), 1995 945 (2005-Present)....
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the spacer that usually goes between the block and the pump. Does your car have one? I think I remember that if you don't have one, the fuel pressure goes up a bit.
The 1972 145E that I bought for $50 up in Seattle(and an extra $24 for one of those cheapo Autozone chromie FPRs...), had HS6s on it, that kept leaking out of the float bowls every time I tried to get it ready to drive home. I made four trips up there from Portland, OR before we tossed the FPR on there so I could make it home. I probably put around 1500 miles on the car before I put it down to rest, the FPR didn't give me any trouble, suprisingly.
The only reason I think this car had an pressure issues is because it didn't have a spacer between the pump and block. I can't remember if it was a pierburg or the newer icky pumps...
--
Kyle - 142, 145, and 244! - Oregon Volvo Tuners?
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Yeah, it's an ugly newer pump.
She was losing oil out of just about every seal when I got her, so I replaced all the bolt-on bits with different, hopefully un-bent parts and new rubber seals and gaskets. There have been many warnings about bent up fuel pump flanges, and I didn't want to take a chance on it, so I installed the new (from volvo) mechanical fuel pump.
It's not beautiful, like a glass dome pump, but it gets the job done (likely a little too well).
Anyway, the answer to your question, is Yes, I do have the bakelite spacer in there. If I didn't, I'd probably have a broken pump arm sitting in my oilpan or worse wedged in between my cam and block... :(
--
1967 P220 (My every-other-daily driver...), 1971 P1800 (The Parts Car), 1972 145S (1993-1997), 1977 245 DL (1993-1999), 1983 245 (1998-2001), 1986 745 GLE (1997-2005), 1990 745 GL (2003-4), 1995 945 (2005-Present)....
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can you find an original fuel pump?
--
White 86-245 DL, M 46, IPD bars & Wagon Overloads,Commando Bumpers,SS Belly Pan & Air Pickup,Straight-Shot EMT Chassis & Tower Braces,Scorpius Alloys,2 Belt No AC Conversion,Black POR-15 No Glare Front End
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Sadly, the "original" just gave my original over to a guy with an early P1800 that was eating his pumps for lunch.
I've been trying to get one of those glass-dome pumps, but competition is fierce.
--
1967 P220 (My every-other-daily driver...), 1971 P1800 (The Parts Car), 1972 145S (1993-1997), 1977 245 DL (1993-1999), 1983 245 (1998-2001), 1986 745 GLE (1997-2005), 1990 745 GL (2003-4), 1995 945 (2005-Present)....
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So are these cars,by now.
Checked with RPR.
Pierburg @ $100 New
Asked Rusty and
George is correct,the other stuff
overpowers and or fails.
Let me know I will pull one from the
Stash, if you want to stick to the plan...
Ken
--
White 86-245 DL, M 46, IPD bars & Wagon Overloads,Commando Bumpers,SS Belly Pan & Air Pickup,Straight-Shot EMT Chassis & Tower Braces,Scorpius Alloys,2 Belt No AC Conversion,Black POR-15 No Glare Front End
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Thanks for checking for me. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with the setup just yet. Since I maybe about to buy a new P1800, I should probably hold off. You can e-mail me if you have one you want to part with, and maybe we can work something out.
--
1967 P220 (My every-other-daily driver...), 1971 P1800 (The Parts Car), 1972 145S (1993-1997), 1977 245 DL (1993-1999), 1983 245 (1998-2001), 1986 745 GLE (1997-2005), 1990 745 GL (2003-4), 1995 945 (2005-Present)....
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I would spring for a genuine OEM Pierburg mechanical pump. Many other brands
look the same and work but put up higher pressures.
--
George Downs Bartlesville, Heart of the USA!
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I forgot to mention, that when the fuel issue first appeared, my gas milage went into the toilet. I thought that I was getting way too much fuel, but I gues that's not possible with a mechanical pump.
From your responses it sounds like my fuel was being highly restricted, but I'm not clear on how low/blocked fuel pressure would cause my mileage to deteriorate so rapidly.
I'd think the milage would improve because too little fuel was getting it... then again if I floored it everytime the fuel started to slacken, then the imbalance/inefficiency would increase greatly, using far more fuel than was needed just to maintain 1000-2000 rpms... Maybe I just answered by own question.
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You were right the first time. But the pump CAN put out a LOT more than
the engine needs. For example the same mechanical pump is used on the B30.
But if a float valve is stuck, held open by a bit of grit, etc you can get
a LOT more fuel than you need and in fact it will be so rich that it is hard
to keep it running. (we call this "flooding".)
The flashy chrome fuel pressure regulators have numbers on them but the numbers
are NOT psi. To know what pressure you are getting you need a pressure gauge.
On the last trial I found that a setting of 2 gave 3 psi. Your results will
probably be different.
--
George Downs Bartlesville, Heart of the USA!
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Try running the engine without the FPR at all. To achieve an accurate pressure regulation at such low pressures requires a balanced diaphragm regulator, not unlike that used for acetylene regulators. One that costs $25.00 retail can't be well made, and I have never seen a good one. The HIF carbs are capable of handling more fuel pressure than the HS, so it just might work without it.
As to the power loss, sometimes bits of gunk end up in the float chamber and will intermittently plug the pick-up tube for the main jet. That shuts off or reduces fuel flow in one carb, giving the symptoms you describe.
If I had a nickel for every time I cleaned an HIF carb that someone sealed the chamber bottom with silicone, well, I'd retire....that's the usual source of gunk in my experience.
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Rhys;
I totally agree that the available FRs for that low pressure range are generally junk, but I wonder if running without one is a good idea...I'm no expert on the HIFs, and I defer to you expertise, but I wonder if subjecting the floatvalves to the full output pressure of the pump is a good idea...I wonder if maybe its possible to adjust a quality bypass FPR like from the injected cars down to such a low pressure...this might be worth a try...one would have to install a return line to the tank though...that's a pain...
Cheers
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Sounds like grit in the FPR to me, and when you fiddle with the adjustment you just happen to clear the blockage.
--
'63 PV544 rat rod, '93 Classic 245 + turbo
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There's an FPR on these cars? Any SU carb'd car I've owned has had a line straight from the pump to the carb. Of course, that's the mechanical pump on the block. If I were running an electric pump it would be a different story, I'm sure. Rhys is the expert...I'd listen to him...
Dale
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No FPR in OEM condition. But most replacement mechanical pumps seem to have a decent chance of overpowering the float valves on a pair of SU's.
I'm using one on the PV too, to knock the 7 - 8 psi electric fuel pump down to 3 - 4 psi for the DCOE's.
--
'63 PV544 rat rod, '93 Classic 245 + turbo
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The original owner had one of those aftermarket $25.00 FPRs installed in the line between the carbs and the pump. He also had a fuel filter in that area, which I switched to a place *before* the fuel pump. You can find the exact same thing at Autozone, but like previously noted, I'd avoid them. They are overpriced, but still cheap junk.
He included at least one spare FPR in the parts I got when I bought the car. When I recently rebuilt and reinstalled the HIF6s, I noticed that the old FPR would not reliably adjust, so I switched it with the other one - which had a tight adjuster wheel. Aparrently, the other one was not in use for a reason. Yesterday in the the "Valley" I learned why.
While looking for other options at the parts store yesterday, I did notice a dandly looking little inline fuel pressure gauge. I was tempted to buy it in order to se just what sort of fuel pressure my pump is subjecting the carbs to..
--
1967 P220 (My every-other-daily driver...), 1971 P1800 (The Parts Car), 1972 145S (1993-1997), 1977 245 DL (1993-1999), 1983 245 (1998-2001), 1986 745 GLE (1997-2005), 1990 745 GL (2003-4), 1995 945 (2005-Present)....
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posted by
someone claiming to be src
on
Sun Oct 29 09:17 CST 2006 [ RELATED]
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Well you're not alone, I'll be trying to solve the same problem tomorrow afternoon. Dies at 2 idling, idles at 3 but bogs down and dies at just the right distance to make it inconvenient to push back. Leaks profusely at anything over 3. I'd like swap them with the HIF6s, but they need some rebuilding... The pistons stick in the domes.
You're running BAL needles with a B18? I don't know that any HIF6 needle is specified for the smaller engine. Maybe a 3-bolt HS6 needle would be more appropriate. KN rings a bell I think...
-Sean
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Mark Twain says that history does not repeat, but it does rhyme.
Your issues sound strangely familiar....
You might try opening up the FPR and checking it's operation. I found them to be pretty simple inside. I had two, so switching is a bit easier.
I know that HIFs are not necessarily metered for the B18 and there is no entry at all for HIFs on a B18 in my su carb manual. I wanted to go with BAL needles because they are a bit leaner and probably as appropriate as I'd find for a B18. With the spring loaded needles, I really can't put my HS6 needles in there with modifying or breaking something
The first time I tried to run HIF6, i could not get the mixture to work, but after rebuilding #1 (which was really bad) and following the adjustment instructions closely, I found that a really rich setting was the only one that would yield the correct idle behavior. Leaning them down led to really poor behavior.
Oddly enough, one of my HIF6 pistons also binds up if I remove it and try to correctly. I've never had an operation issue related to piston binding, but it's pretty annoying to try get it in the right dome correctly. I've no idea if such a problem is fixable.
Regardless, the entire manifold assemble is going to be bolted onto my B20E for which the needles will be correct...
--
1967 P220 (My every-other-daily driver...), 1971 P1800 (The Parts Car), 1972 145S (1993-1997), 1977 245 DL (1993-1999), 1983 245 (1998-2001), 1986 745 GLE (1997-2005), 1990 740 GL (2003-4), 1995 945 (2005-Present)....
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