posted by
someone claiming to be 240 owner
on
Wed May 25 05:26 CST 2005 [ RELATED]
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Thinking of buying a Volvo 850 GLT wagon and I want to get an idea of how good is the car and is it worth it getting one?
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From my reletively short time as an owner of both a 940 and a 850 Volvo, I wouldn't touch another 850, the build quality of the 940 (and I surmise, all the rear wheel drive Volvo's) is much, much better than the 850. Although great to drive when everything is working (i.e. very occasionally!)generally speaking I would buy a good 940,or 960 any day before the 850. Then again if you only want a car that isn't going to cost you an arm and a leg (or two) after the initial purchase, buy Japanese.
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posted by
someone claiming to be yct
on
Wed Jun 1 10:16 CST 2005 [ RELATED]
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Japanese cars are certainly more reliable. Yet, when you have an Acura RL (worth $50,000+) and the driver uses a pillow for back-comfort (just had that experience lately in a 2-hour trip) or when you have a Corolla or Altima (we had both, still have the Altima) and after 2 or 3 hours of driving I need 24 hours for my back to recover, I would keep buying Volvos! Granted, my '87 240 (after 250k miles and 10 years) cost me 12 cents per mile (including everything, insurance, gas, etc.), while my '95 850 turbo sedan (after 133k miles and almost 11 years) cost me about 36-37 cents per mile so far (again, including everything). Of course, the 850 has been incredible fun so far.
May be we have been very lucky both times with our volvos, particularly after we read comments like yours. After 600k miles in the US and 200k miles in Europe, my experience is that pro-active 'religious' maintenance is the key factor (assuming the car is not a lemon). But then again, this is not a secret.
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I went from a 240 to a 97 850 GLT (light pressure turbo) and haven't regretted it once. Read what others say about the big repairs (AC Evap, rear main seal, ABS module), and you may want to have some dough on hand to account for these items. But I've had mine for about 3 years now and love it. Get it checked by at least one mechanic, get one with good maintenance records, and go turbo if you can!
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I have a '95 850 turbo sedan and I can tell you that once I sat in the seat I was sold. They are the most comfortable seats I have ever had in a car. The car does not handle curves as well as the average car I have owned, and I would definitely prefer a manual, like Klaus. BUT, the turbo engine has power out the wazoo. Mine has an almost imperceptible wheel shimmy - I don't know if they all do. I have a feeling if I found the right place they could balance the wheels better. I do a heck of a lot of driving, and it is just so enjoyable to lean back against the seat and headrest and turn up the above average factory sound system... The looks are current as well. Find one with records and that has been cared for.
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The '93s are kinda unique with a 50,000 mile timing belt and 4-bolt wheels and rotors.
Also, the AT is unique.
'94-'95-'96 GLTs are naturally aspirated.
'97s (and the subsequent SV70 GLTs) have a low-pressure turbocharger. The block is not reinforced and the crankshaft is cast, not forged like on the T5 turbos.
If you have a 240 I guess you know about Volvo electrical poltergeists.
I've NEVER had a car that I liked so much that was so much trouble....it's kinda like being in love with a woman who also sleeps with every other man, woman and animal in town.
Would I buy another one? I was within a penstroke of buying a 2005 V70R and then I decided I must have completely lost my marbles. Albert Einstein is quoted as defining "insanity" as doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result. I love the car, I've been driving Swedish iron for 22 years but geez, it's time to try something new.
-BTC
'98 V70 T5 5-speed, 159k mi, front IPD stabilizer bar, rear factory HD bar, Bilstein HD, Volvo strut tower brace and skidplate, e-codes, V-1, Mobil-1 since new
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Any comments on the Bilsteins--I have the sport suspension and will need new struts soon, but am concerned about making an already stiff ride (I like it) stiffer...
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I have the more 'repair intense' turbo 850 (96-103k miles). I bought it new and it is the first car I have ever had (started driving in the mid 50's) that, after two years, I didn't start lusting on something else. I like the looks, the handling, the power vs mileage (28 mpg-and I'm not a timid driver), etc. and intend to keep it for many more years.
The amount of problems you are going to see is a function of maintenance and driving habits. Do a lot of full throttle accelerations, hard cornering and driving mistreatment in general and any car will say ouch.
I do most of my own routine maintenance, change oil (Mobil1), flush tranny (EASY and use Mobil1), ignition system tuneups (easy), pads and rotors (easy), etc. I have had only a few minor problems--cam position sensor, roll bar connecting arm (easy, cheap fix) and now need to send my ABS sensor in for a rebuild with Victor Rocha. No problem with leather cracking, use Leatherique to maintain. Rear seal might go out in next 50K miles? (I'll let my indy do that one) New struts and spring seats? do that myself. Timing belt replacement--many cars require that, but another DIY project.
Anyway, it's all a matter of taste, after all--if you like the car and find one that has been well maintained (badly maintained 850s will bite you hard, but won't most any car?)and driven reasonably (see if you can find out how many sets of tires it's had--a good clue, or how many times pads & rotors replaced) then buy it and enjoy. And don't shy away from turbos, the Volvo turbo is a sturdy one and the car is really fun to drive.
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Remember when the 240 was compared to all other makes of cars and not one person was killed in 5 years? Well the newer cars are safe too, but not safer than other makes that have caught up and passed Volvo. Back then, the Volvo was a prince and also a very expensive car. Today they are still expensive, but have become increasingly more expensive to maintain. With the current crop of Volvos, shade tree mechanics are being put out to pasture with VADIS and non-repairable electronic gizzmos which do not enhance safety or reliability.
The 1994-1995 850 are OK, because they still let the owner check the OBDII codes. All 1996 and newer require a code reader, which is out of my budget. The timing belt at 60K miles, the ABS module at 85K, The leather seats that wear too fast with cracks, the AC which was designed for Scandinavian summers, and a tranny that doesn't match the HP of the engine.
But the turbo is fun! Wish I had found a 5speed for better control. Maybe a 5 series BMW next time?
Klaus
--
98 V70Rawd(108Kmi), 95 854T(88K mi), 75 164E(173K mi)
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GOOD is a relative thing. In my opinion as a consumer the 850 is a so-so car at best. My opinion as a technician and shop owner? I love them, for they are always breaking or wearing something out. Let me see the short list for an 850 would read something like:
a/c evaporator
spring seats and struts
engine mounts, especially the one by the dampner
upper torque stay bushings
trans flushes
transmissions in the earlier ones
rear main seals
rotted vacuum elbows
cap, rotor, wires
occassional fuel pump and relay
bent wiper arms
link rods
axle boots
axles
turbo return line seals
radiators
engine coolant temp sensors
I am sure I missed a few but hey, it's the short list right? Don't get me wrong I can come up with a laundry list for any car you put on my hoist,Volvo or otherwise. However, I see far too many 850's that come into my shop that need SEVERAL items on that list ontop of their routine service needs. Are they decent cars? They're OK but they will never stand the test of time that most of your red engine cars will, at least not without spending a whole bunch of $$ to get you there.
Mark
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posted by
someone claiming to be yct
on
Fri May 27 11:12 CST 2005 [ RELATED]
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Mark sounds sort of scary. From his list of 17 items, I just had a new a/c evaporator for $650 (at the Volvo Dealer, after 4.5 years), 2 trans flushes, and one turbo return seal for $85 (at the dealer, after 9 years). Everything else is original, after 133k miles and almost 11 years (I bought it new with 19 miles).
Perhaps, everything will fall apart any time now. However, one of the mechanics at the Volvo dealer recently gave my car's shape and engine 'excellent', and my 1995 850 turbo sedan has been one of the lowest maintenance cars I am aware of. Important elements have been regular oil filter & (conventional) oil changes every 3k miles and belts and other filters as recommended. Also, the speedometer has repeatedly been outside the indicated range (although you do not look at it when it is close to 360 degrees away from its original state); in those cases, oil/oil filter changes were more frequent, however (even as often as 1.5k miles).
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You got an a/c evaporator installed at the dealer for $650.00!?!?! I'm sorry but I would have to see the invoice on that one before I would believe it. List price on the part alone is $330.00 plus the time to tear out the dash etc, etc,. I can't buy that one.
Mark
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posted by
someone claiming to be yct
on
Wed Jun 1 08:47 CST 2005 [ RELATED]
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Give me a FAX number and I will FAX it to you.
The detail is in that they replaced it (based on the dye method), while it had more life in it (based on my lab analysis). Thus, I had to chose between: either they take the new one out and put in the old one (at absolutely no cost to me for both replacements) or we split the labor cost (of about $700). I opted for the latter solution. Thus, $1000 - 350 = $650.
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I'd like to see that 714-839-2289
Mark
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posted by
someone claiming to be yct
on
Fri Jun 3 06:56 CST 2005 [ RELATED]
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It was just FAXed to you.
I am curious about why you seemed to not believe it in the first place however.
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Well let's examine your first statement:
"From his list of 17 items, I just had a new a/c evaporator for $650 (at the Volvo Dealer, after 4.5 years)".
I interpret this just as you typed it, "JUST had a new a/c evaporator for $650". I install evaporators with a pollen filter replacement or, as is more often the case, a pollen filter retrofit kit, evacuate and recharge the a/c, coolant, and some UV dye for about $1400.00. I am just your run of the mill Volvo independent so I only charge $70.00 an hour as opposed to the dealer's $100.00+ per hour. Just for kicks I called the closest Volvo independent to my shop and shopped them on the same and they came back with $1613.00, pollen filter kit would be extra and they will need it for 2 days. The parts on that repair run in the area of $450.00 and the labor is about 12 hours so when you say you had a dealer do it for $650.00 I have to say "no way". Another thing conveniently left out is that fact that you had this work done 6 years ago. Heck even I have raised my labor rate twice in the past 6 years and I am kind of moderate in that respect. 6 years is a long time.
Something else doesn't sit right is that they did not seem to charge out any refrigerant or dye on the install. Also, just what do you mean by your laboratory analysis? If they changed it out the first time and you say it was not neccesary then by default you are saying that it was not leaking and you have another leak that was causing the problem right? So did you car continue to loose refrigerant after their repair or did it actually fix the problem.
You may have got an evaporator installed for $650.00 6 years ago but there are still a lot of inconsistencies and holes in the story. The reality of it is if you take your car to a dealer or a reputable Volvo independent for this repair you'd better be ready to plunk down $1500.00+. If you want it done cheaper either do it yourself or go see a radiator or heating & a/c specialty shop. I have seen people do that in the past and they got what they paid for. A few of them have been in my shop with the aftermath of broken parts and things that just were not repaired right the first time.
Mark
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posted by
someone claiming to be yct
on
Fri Jun 3 16:32 CST 2005 [ RELATED]
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I am confused about your latest long note. As I said and proved to you, it was done 4.5 years after I bought the car (new), it cost me $650 grand total (see my FAX), and it has been OK for the last six years or so ever since. The lab analysis was a simple thorough leak test in our facility.
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It seems clear to me that you are making my point for me. Why did they refund you half the labor back? As I understand it they did so because you seemed to have proved that the evaporator was not leaking, is this right? However you go on to say that it has been fine for the last 6 years. When you replace the evap that is all you do, you do not open any other part of the system. So from what I am seeing, they installed your new evaporator and the system has been fine for 6 years, i.e. THEY FIXED YOUR LEAK. They fixed your leak and yet you seemed to be think you are justified in grinding them out of half of the labor on a job that was already bid at an absolute rock bottom price. There obviously is more to the story here than is being let out, but whatever. All I can say is that if what you are telling me is face value, I thank God I have no customers like you and I pitty the service manager who has to deal with you.
Mark
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posted by
someone claiming to be yct
on
Mon Jun 6 08:43 CST 2005 [ RELATED]
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It sounds that you took it too personally. In any case, I am happy with that particular volvo dealer and I have brought several new customers to them for that reason. I do not mind paying a bit more when the job is done really well, and that is the case with my volvo dealer. As for the leak, we have cutting edge leak-test equipment in my research lab and the evidence by three doctoral students was overwhelming for the dealer. His appropriate response helped both sides tremendously. As you saw it, I paid the full price first, and then showed them our evidence a few days later. They (on their own) gave me the two choices I mentioned some time ago.
Certainly I am the customer who asks questions, particularly when there is some expensive work to be done. Also, by training, my physics, chemistry, math and engineering backgrounds are not bad. Further, I really like it very much when my customers ask me questions. Yet, other people may not like something like that.
Have a great summer!
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Take it personally? Well maybe, when you do what I do for a living sometimes it is hard not to. From what I can make from your posts you entered into a contract with someone to diagnose and repair your a/c, they did exactly that and you took your old parts and subjected them to your own laboratory analysis and then put the thumb screws to the dealership until they returned 1/2 of the labor that you agreed to pay them for what they did. Did they do a good job, did they fix the problem, did you agree to pay them the amount of money that they estimated it would cost, did they come in at or under the estimate? If the answer to these questions are yes then I cannot help but feel what you did is dishonest. If it did not fix the car and you had to return I would think that you would be more than justified in your actions. Instead you simply forced them to settle for the lesser of two evils. Much akin to a frivilous law suit and a company settling out of court because it will cost them more time and money to persevere and prove that they are right, operated in good faith, and provided you with a good solid diagnosis and repair at a rock bottom price.
Think about this, the technician who did that job probably got back flagged half of the labor that he was initially paid to do the job. You know the job that he diagnosed and did properly, the one that according to your own testament is still blowing cold after 6 years. Is that fair and right? I hardly think so.
You enjoy your summer too and pray that your a/c doesn't take a dump on you.
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posted by
someone claiming to be yct
on
Tue Jun 7 11:50 CST 2005 [ RELATED]
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Expressions like "... put the thumb screws to the dealership," "... forced them to settle," "... frivolous law suit" show that you have already forgotten my earlier messages posted right above, here. Honorable car dealers indeed do honorable work and honorable deals. My volvo dealer is definitely one of these honorable establishments, based on my experience with them during the last 20 years! Given that I grew up in Europe, statements like the ones mentioned above in quotes are totally foreign to people like me. Perhaps that is the reason customers choose their car dealer, indy, etc., based on their own way of doing things. So, life goes on!
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You continue to fail to get the point. You contracted with them to fix your car. They diagnosed and fixed your car properly yet for some reason you feel justified in having them refund half of the money you paid. Sorry, that is wrong. Your car was diagnosed and repaired properly and you refused to pay. Let me ask you this, what other recourse did that establishment have when you walked through the door with your trumped up b.s. proof that you had done by your people. It is obvious that your assesment of that evaporators ability to hold a vacuum is wrong at best and fraudulent at worst. They diagnosed it with UV dye, that means that a technician went in there with the UV lamp and glasses and found dye ON THE OUTSIDE of the evaporator which means IT WAS LEAKING. They got your approval to replace it, they did so, and it has worked for the last SIX YEARS. I am in the business and I can tell you that when you are faced with the situation that you present you get out of it as cheap and as fast as you can. That is exactly what they did, because they did it professionally and with a smile on their face you think they liked it and were OK with it? You might be able to sell yourself on it, but having been in the business for 20+ years I know otherwise. What you did is called a shake down, period. Oh at the time you might have thought it was honorable and just but six years down the road it does not hold water anymore. They fixed your car right and tight and you used your credentials and supposed intelectual advantage to beat them out of what you agreed to pay.
Grew up in Europe huh? That does not speak well for Europe.
Mark
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posted by
someone claiming to be amfou
on
Fri Jun 10 16:59 CST 2005 [ RELATED]
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Apparently, you ignore the facts of this case. That is OK, since you do have that choice too. Yet, we do not really envy any of your customers as customers of your enterprize. We wish you the best, in whatever ways you choose to use your talents.
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I have re-read this post several times maybe you could be so kind as to point out the facts of this case that I am either ignoring or overlooking. While you are doing it could you explain why it is you feel justified in having them return half of the labor charged for a job that was obviously done right?
Mark
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I agree to the point of relative thing. I own a 97 850-R which I bought new at 87 miles. It has had a few things break or need to be repaired, but no more than any other vehicle I've owned, in fact this car has exceeded my expectations compared to other vehicles I've owned.
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