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I need some expert opinions here really badly;
Friday:
Picked up my 1994 850 with 236,000 miles on it from reputable indie Volvo shop (one I have used over the past 2 years and been very happy with). The bill was $840 for a new water pump (had been leaking), timing belt, cam seal (leaking oil onto timing belt) alternator belt and front motor mount. I'd been saving a while for this major fix up.
Friday night - Saturday morning:
Wow car drives like a dream! It may have high miles but it drives like a brand new car and I am happy.
Saturday afternoon:
We take a 90 miles road trip in car. On the highway at about 60 miles, black smoke starts to blow from exhaust. Car makes horrible "chugga chugga" noise at lower rpm's as we slow down. At stop signs car is obviously running on 4 cylinders. We end up driving the car back home being a weekend and no garages to be found.
I figure perhaps the timing belt has stretched and needs adjusting or something related to the repairs done the day before ... whatever I figured it was no big deal and maybe abother $50 to fix.
Monday morning:
I took car back into repair shop that did the work and explain. They take a look and do compression test - no compression in 1st cylinder. ("Under 5" I don't know 5 what) and shows me the spark plug coated in oil. Mechanics say my engine is screwed - the 1st cylinder (but only that one) appears to have either broken values or blown rings. It would be several hundreed $ to take the head off and diagnose. They say this is bad luck that it happened the next day after their timing belt work. I say put car back together I have to get to work and my credit card was maxed from work done 2 days ago.
Now, according to my limited mechanical knowledge, the timing belt controls when the plugs fire and when the valvues go up and down - thus the danger of the belt breaking is that these parts could hit eachother and cause exactly the kind of damage I see in my car.
Being a non-expert and trusting this garage I did not want to make any unseemly implications, but isn't it possibly - or even LIKELY - that IF they screwed up the timing belt it broke my engine?
Or do I just have the worst luck in the world?
If it is possible/likely my next step is to take the car to dealer or another mechanic for assessment, and then if it is the garage's fault I suppose they owe me a new engine?
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Update,
Independent shop today says timing belt is on right. No signs of it being related to the first place's work (unless the belt just "skipped" or unless they fixed it Monday when I checked in). So one way or another I am going to be paying to have a running car.
Now I have another decision, which is made more difficult by the fact that I intend to drive 3000 miles this summer and import my car to Canada. Here's what I need:
1. Car has to be mine in title to import, so I can owe money on it. If I were to go out and buy a replacement I'd have to eithr finance it or drain my retirement fund and pay tax penalties etc.
2. Car must be able to drive 3000 miles to Ontario Canada in a few months and live through it
My choices:
1. Do the $1500 valve job and hope the car makes the trip.
2. Put in a used engine which will cost me $4500 installed and may be more if complications occur. Would have to drain my retirement fund and pay tax penalties.
3. Scrap car and buy similar used car for about $4500 with lower miles, but would need to either finance (can't import to Canada until paid off) or drain retirement fund. Would get $0 for my car as is in this area.
Advice?
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posted by
someone claiming to be Dave
on
Wed Mar 9 06:23 CST 2005 [ RELATED]
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IMHO, you'ld be best to scrap it or at least get whatever you can for it as-is.
About a year ago I had a customers car towed in, also with bad compression. It was a '94 850 with about 300K, the guy was from out of state and had us replace its engine with a used one as apparently he loved the car or something? His bill was about $5K. The car wasn't worth that and I told him that too but he claimed it was still cheaper than buying airline tickets. I highly doubt that.
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"...and then if it is the garage's fault I suppose they owe me a new engine?"
I would think that if it were determined to be the garage's fault (not an easy thing to prove), then they would owe you an engine with 236,000 miles, NOT a new engine.
I certainly understand the feeling that you have been screwed in this process, and that the bad luck (or mechanic's incompetence) seems unfair, but this really shows why Volvos don't always make the best used cars. The cost of repair is so high that it is causing a large financial burden on you. The repairs can easily exceed the value of the car.
Maybe you should cut your losses and get a different car. If you spend more than $50 or $100 trying to pin the blame on the shop, you are just throwing good money after bad, and it sounds like you can't afford to be doing that. I believe that your honest chances of recouping anything are slim to none. Sorry.
Good luck
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posted by
someone claiming to be cn
on
Tue Mar 8 07:10 CST 2005 [ RELATED]
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If an independent shop proves that the TB in fact misaligned, the origianl shop owes the customer a fix, either:
- rebuild that engine
- a good used engine as you said.
The trouble is how to diagnose it and prove it:
- by owner (to dianose a misaligned TB is not that hard)
- by another shop.
Good business practice dicatates that they own up to their problem (if they caused it)
cn
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I think the big problems comes from the fact that an independent shop may never be able to prove it to the satisfaction of the first shop, who have lots of incentive to stonewall until Tina runs out of cash.
Even if the timing belt isn't installed properly, who's to say that it didn't jump a few teeth after her valve guides failed and caused internal engine damage?
Another way to ask the question: Does she want to be right, or does she want to be happy? Even if she's right about the first shop making the mistake, the cost of proving it and pursuing any damages would likely make her even more unhappy. Not a good solution for her.
I wish I could cast some less dreary light on this, but I was born a pessimist. It's just easier to move on, and never use that shop again if she really suspects they made a mistake.
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posted by
someone claiming to be cn
on
Tue Mar 8 05:01 CST 2005 [ RELATED]
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1. Check the TB alignment yourself if you have some tools.
- You have to remove the FRONT Passenger side wheel to see the Crankshaft marking:
http://www.volvospeed.com/Repair/timingbelt.htm
IF the shop installed the TB wrong, and therfore causing engine damage, then they HAVE to eat up the cost (by law).
They probably did it unintentionally. I almost installed it wrong myself, but discovered it only after manually turning the CRANKSHAFT 2 revolutions.
2. Check the TB alignment using another independent shop.
The problem is "any further driving at this time can cause even more engine damage".
But if you can somehow get your car (two truck) to another shop to certify that the TB was installed wrong, then again the original shop has to eat up the cost.
3.Actual pictures of damaged 850 engine are here FYI:
http://www.alconautomotive.com/850cylhead.htm
cn
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posted by
someone claiming to be bl
on
Mon Mar 7 17:02 CST 2005 [ RELATED]
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Ask around and see if there is an automotive machine shop in town. They typically machine heads and rebuild engines. Likely a dirty, dumpy hole in the wall type place (at least the two where I live are) but have been there for years and still have real mechanics and not parts swappers. These places are far less likely to gouge you than regular garages and especially dealers (YIKES!) and can probably find you a used engine more reasonable. There are also a few places that have fiber optic technology available that don't have to pull the head. They insert the "scope" in the spark plug hole, look around and render a "diagnosis" immediately
bl
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posted by
someone claiming to be cn
on
Mon Mar 7 09:37 CST 2005 [ RELATED]
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-Open the TB cover to see the Camshafts markings.
-Remove the Passenger's wheel and open the plastic covering to see the Crankshaft marking.
(See Volvospeed for details:
http://www.volvospeed.com/Repair/timingbelt.htm)
Then check if the TB aligns correctly.
IF NOT, then it is the shop's fault and they need to "eat up" the cost.
Avoid driving further because more damage is possible.
cn
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Do I have to remove the wheel to see this? I have a torx wrench set but not many more tools, and no way to raise the car. How can I tell if it is aligned properly?
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I don’t believe in strange coincidences like that anymore. Unfortunately the high mileage is working against you.
I'd almost bet they screwed up during the belt install. Maybe they manually turned the engine against the valves in cylinder #1. Impossible to prove and again your high mileage will make it impossible to prove anything.
--
Geo
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"Maybe they manually turned the engine against the valves in cylinder #1". This does not fit with the report that the car drove great for two days. If they damaged it in the shop, the effect would have been noticed immediately.
Is it possible to screw up the timing belt and damage only one piston? It seems more likely that all sets of valves would be damaged, doesn't it?
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It did not drive great for 2 days - it drove home from the shop Friday evening at low speed short distance, great. Next day we neaded out on highway and it broke.
And I didn't mean "brand new" engine I meant a replacement used engine or repairs to mine.
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I too, doubt that a new belt would have messed up just cyl #1. Less than 5psi is as far down as the tester will register. Sounds like a valve seat went south. If it were the rings, lift up on the oil dip stick and watch the blowby come out. I don't suspect the rings, even at 240K miles. You could get another opinion, but you may be better off pleading with the service manager about your lack of funds.
Since there was no noise coming from the engine, it is possible that the repair could be relatively minor (verses new pistons and valves and bearings, etc.) Does the shop have a free loaner program? A junker to get you to work and back?
Ask lots of questions and let the tears fly! Most men cringe at wet eyes!
Klaus
--
98 V70Rawd(101Kmi), 95 854T(85K mi), 75 164E(173K mi)
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PS The "good news" is that I successfully installed the new tailgate struts last week - the parts I bought on eBay were wrong size, the right ones purchased elsewhere fit. Now it seems a small victory :(
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Now, put your "trunk" struts on Ebay!
--
98 V70Rawd(101Kmi), 95 854T(85K mi), 75 164E(173K mi)
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They said if it is the valve(s) it would probably be about total $1500 to fix. So much money to sink into this old car but still cheaper than replacing it...
Especially after I have replaced so much in the past 2 years.
Is it harming the car further to drive it around as is?
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IF the valve seat is bad, it will only get worse, rapidly. What you don't want is to have the valve drop through to the cyl head where it will really do some damage. I have 3 Volvos, so I have the luxury of saying "don't drive it".
Ask your mechanic about what he expects to find and what he is going to fix. Will he check all of the other valves, will he do rings also, should you look for a sightly less worn motor for the same price? Ask, ask, ask. There is no such thing as a dumb question, just dumb answers.
Lots of luck and keep us informed,
Klaus
--
98 V70Rawd(101Kmi), 95 854T(85K mi), 75 164E(173K mi)
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posted by
someone claiming to be Dave
on
Mon Mar 7 06:22 CST 2005 [ RELATED]
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Another unbiased diagnosis is a good idea but there's really nothing that they could have done to cause poor compression in ONE cylinder. It IS possible that the t-belt might have been re-installed incorrectly and off time but if that were to cause engine damage, usually more than one valve would be bent from incorrect valve timing.
If you really want to keep that car and it needs engine work, considering the mileage I'd just seek out a good used engine instead. Still won't be cheap but a better alternative to repairing a high mileage engine.
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I have to agree, the best course of action here would be to stuff in the best low mileage engine you can find. To open that motor is an absolute can of worms. I cannot see how the could be responsible for having ONE hole go south on you. To register basically zero on the compression guage you are going to have to have on size large gaping hole in that #1 hole somewhere. Hole in piston, one bent valve(!?!), something pretty serious. I have had engines apart that had pie shaped chunks missing in the valves and they still made some compression. Fixing that engine will most likely cost more than a used engine but it will give you the chance to see what failed in it, which in the end may actually provide you with more questions than answers. Sorry to see you in such a tight spot.
Mark
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Just spoke to local dealer service department, they said it is "possible" that a mistake in install could cause damage to one cylinder. The jusry seems to be still out here - some people say yes some say no.
Now, to pay for a second opinion is going to cost me over $500 to pay for dissassembly of th head etc.
Do I:
1. Call the garage that did the work and say "hey I think you damaged my car fix it for free" and hope they agree (and damage my relationship with them, risk them saying - prove it no way)
2. Go to another garage or dealer and pay for another opinion (I don't have another indie service place I know and trust) then if conclusion is yes first garge damaged my car, try to recoup loss of second opinion along with the reapirs
3. Suck it up and hope it is the $1500 valve and have first garage fix it, not investigate further
Installing a used engine is just not worth it - I can buy a 1995 lower miles car for $4500 which is about what it will cost for an installed used engine in mine.
What are my legal rights here regarding second opinions and proving that damage is their fault if that is what is concluded?
I am not jumping to any conclusions here I do understand it *could* be a coincidence, but I want to get what I am entitled to if they did screw it up.
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Well, your consumer rights vary from state to state. If this kind of thing happened in my shop I would present you with a tear down estimate. A tear down estimate is required by law in my state and it is defined as an estimate that will cover tearing it down AND putting it back together in the shape it was in BEFORE you took it apart. It is not a repair estimate but it is still going to be closer to the price of a full blown repair than the price to simply pull the head and look around. I would present you this with the condition that if we got in there and it was apparent that I had installed the belt incorrectly or was responsible in some other way then I would eat it and if it was due to some other factor (i.e. failure of another component like the tensioner or something) then it would be your baby. The real fly in the ointment here is that you have to be dealing with an honest and ethical shop. If not I garuantee they can and will spin it right into your court. In the event that the shop simply stone walls you from the get go your only options at that point are to walk away to another shop or to inform them that they can expect a visit from the BAR (bureau of automotive repair) or whatever the equivalent is in your area.
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Chances are the place that did the work is not going to say "opps our screw up we'll fix it at no charge".
I think you best chance is to try to negotiate a deal. Maybe the will pick up the labor and you agree to pay for the parts. If not at least its a starting point.
But what if they refuse? You may need to find a new garage and try going about this through small claims court. Good luck. Keep us posted.
--
Geo
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Something you need to consider here:
According to your statement the engine has less than 5 PSI compression. This means that it has NO compression in it whatsoever. In order for this to happen you need to have a catastrophic failure of a component in that ONE cylinder. Did you hear anything rattling or banging around in there?
The original shop has re-inspected it and said the engine is done and you need a new one. At this point you have to assume that they have re-checked the belt installation and more than likely covered their tracks on anything left loose.
You said that you had cam seals done which means they took the cam gears off which leaves a potential for them to be left loose. If they were left loose though it would cause a problem for ALL cylinders not just one.
You have a motor with 236K on it that has a blown up #1 cylinder, you need a new engine. Does the original shop have any financial responsibility in this matter? You will need to spend some money to find that out, and truthfully unless the belt is installed incorrectly (out of time) I don't think you are going to find anything conclusive enough to hang it on the shop that did the work originally.
If you are going to spend the money to have someone inspect the damage and try to ascertain just exactly what happened then your money is best spent at another shop that has no interest in it one way or the other. Either way you need to plan on spending the money to check it out AND to fix or replace it.
I do not see the shop stepping up and spending thousands to fix your car out of the goodness of their heart. If I were you I would either dump a new motor in it or get rid of the car and put the money into a newer one. Make sure that you have a pre-purchase inspection done on it first.
You will be money ahead if you just fix it or replace it but you will never know why it dropped the number one hole and if you do spend the money to inspect you may still not ever really know what happened.
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No rattling or banging, he were just driving along the highway and my dad driving behind us in a rental car says he saw some black smoke from tailpipe, but we did not notice. When we took an exit ramp and slowed down that is when we noticed the engine was not running on all cylinders (with the inertia of the highway speed it had not been noticable). We never heard a bang or rattle at all.
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