I think I have a major leak at the RMS on my '94 850, with just over 200K miles. Flame trap is clear, I will check the hose going to the oil seperator, but in the event I need to change the seal, I will attemp it myself - anyone know where I can get some good detailed DIY info? Bay13 on volvospeed did not have a listing on this....

thanks
mark

For what it's worth and I'm no mechanic. I have two 96 850's, a wagon and a sedan. Both had leaky rear main seals when I bought them. Rather than paying $$ for the repairs, I tried using that high mileage oil thats available now. The 850 wagon's leak stopped after one oil change, but the 850 sedan still leaks but it appears not as much. I figured anything was worth a try before shelling out all that money.

Alex

I had my RMS start leaking last year and decided back last June to finally change it out. Let me say this, I am an extremely experienced home mechanic with extensive tools, an engine hoist, welder, air tools, you name it I've got it. I've done at least 6 or 8 engine rebuilds, 4 full restorations and a few partial restos on various muscle and sports cars, and I opted out of doing this job. It didn't come down to ability, I'm sure I could have handled the job, the thing is time. Unless you have a lift, or access to one, this is an extremely difficult job to do in your garage or driveway. If I had a week, or even a few days, to let the car lay up that would have been different. The way Volvo has packaged the engine/transmission assembly in this car is insane. Basically, the engine/tranny sits on the front subframe, and the subframe needs to be removed while the engine is supported from above with either a hoist or some type of cross bar that spans the front fenders. Then the entire thing needs to be tilted and lowered to get at the engine/tranny mating area so the trans can come out. Everything comes out through the bottom, the motor and trans can't be removed from the top. Trying to do this in a driveway is a major pain in the ass. What they do in the shops is unbolt everything, including the subframe to body/frame bolts, then actually lift the car up while the subframe and engine/tranny rest on the floor. My buddy is a Volvo/Saab specialist but he's stopped doing engine/trans swaps and RMS jobs on cars with this configuration, he's by himself in the shop and they just take to long for him to warrant tying up his lift for that long.

I'm not trying to discourage you, unless you're a novice mechanic, to which I would say don't even think about it. Just make sure you really read through the procedure before tackling this one. I spent $675 (which is an excellent price from what I understand) to get this job done at a reputable Volvo specialist, and it was worth every penny, it's an all day job even for them. My time and the need to have the car on the road the next day were both of higher value than the cost of the job. But if you've got the time to kill and an extensive array of tools and equipment then by all means have at it, just be prepared because it's a killer. I was looking at the procedures in both the Chilton and the Haynes manuals. Both seemed decent enough that an experienced mechanic could figure out what they were trying to explain, I'd give the slight edge to the Haynes though. All this for a part that costs about 25 bucks. Do make sure though that you get the Volvo replacement seal. They've improved it since what was originally put in your car, but the aftermarket ones are still based on the old original design. The Volvo seal is a little more money but should last quite a bit longer, and we're still only talking about 25 bucks.

Good luck.

Hello, I'm new to the board and new to needing major Volvo repairs. I have a 97 850 GLT wagon that has about 120K miles on it, purchased used in 2002. Until now, all I've had to do was routine maintenance, but I believe that I need to have the rear main seal replaced. I've had two shops that specialize in Volvo repairs tell me this, but both have quoted me prices of $1000+ to do the work. Since it was all labor charges for what they said was a $40 part, I shopped it to a third mechanic who said it wasn't the RMS, but rather the turbo that was leaking oil and that this would be anywhere from $1500 to $1800 to repair. This really confused me because when I purchased the car (from a used volvo dealer), they told me it didn't have the turbo option. HELP! How do I figure out who to believe? And, how quickly does this type of repair need to be made? Mechanic number 3 told me that it is possible that the turbo will blow oil into the wrong place and the car will catch on fire. I'm afraid that they "see me coming" and are thinking they can tell me anything because I don't know what questions to ask in this arena. The car does make small drip spots in the driveway, but never enough to make the oil low inbetween oil changes. Thanks for any insight you can share.

I'd take it to the dealer - actual volvo dealer, not the used car place. The dealer knows this car better than any other hack in your area or mine. Volvos are "wierd" to mechanics. My so called Volvo/Saab specialist turned out to be a Swedish car generalist and I think simple problems were often misdiagnosed.

You might just need a PCV service done which encompasses the flame trap. Sometimes, blown out seals will stop blowing oil if the engine is allowed to breathe again. Probably not, but maybe.... PCV refers positive crankcase ventilation system.

I used to be afraid that my dealer would rip me off. After getting the run around from "volvo specialists" as you have, I now go to the dealer. They always fix the car the right way, the first time.

BTW, I think your car might be a light pressure turbo. I'm pretty sure the 96 GLT was - GLT's did come with the light pressure turbo standard later in the 850 run. My wife's V70 AWD is a light pressure turbo and it doesn't say turbo on the hatch and doesn't have the turbo guage on the dash - just a thought to confuse you ;). The light pressure turbo is supposedly a lot more reliable the the Turbo - with a captial T. I don't think a light pressure turbo would be causing all of these problems unless you haven't changed the oil in the last 120K miles.

Very best of luck to you.


~Ben

Wow! Thanks to you and to "Hellboy" for all of your insight and suggestions. I wish I had known about this board before as I've had general questions about the car and had no one to turn to except the "specialists." I will inquire about the PCV trap, and now that you mention it, I vaguely remember the guy who sold me the car saying it had "something" to help with acceleration, but not exactly a turbo. My nearest dealers are an hour away, so that's why I've relied on the other mechanics. With two children who are always depending on me to have them somewhere, getting the car to the dealer, then being with out it while it is worked on, is a challenge.

Unfortunately, everything is coming due on this car at one time...after taking it in for general service and paying $140 on top of that to have the door stop fixed, I learned that it needs tires, brakes, then the RMS issue, so I've been trying to decide if it is worth sinking all of the cash as opposed to buying a newer used Vovlo...was thinking V70 AWD. (I drove Subarus for 8 years prior to getting the ultimate "mommy car" so the AWD is really appealing.) The lot that I bought the car from said that they would buy it back from me for 1/4 of what I paid him for it about 3 years ago. I've put maybe 20K miles on it and have had it religiously maintained. Could it have really lost that much value?

Life sure was alot simpler all those years ago when I was driving my 67 Mustang and pretty much any guy with a wrench could fix it. :-)

Thanks again,
Laurie

Well, I'm not going to try and sway you here, but if you've got a finite budget and reliability is your top concern, I would definitely go back to the Subarus. Don't get me wrong, I love my 850, the handling is pretty good, it looks nice, it's comfortable and pretty well designed. However, this is the first Volvo I've owned and will probably be the last. In fact, my next car will most likely be the new Subaru Legacy GT, it is an unbelievable car for the money. I've talked to a few guys who work on the newer Volvo's at the local dealership and they are supposedly an absolute nightmare to work on, electrical systems especially.

As far as the all wheel drive systems, I think the Subaru's beat the pants off Volvo, or just about anyone else except maybe Rover and Jeep, but they don't build cars now do they. I know the Japanese cars don't have quite the pinache of a European sports sedan, but you'll be paying far less for maintenance and upkeep and have less headaches6 or 8 years down the road.

So you had a '67 Stang huh? Cool, my first car was a '67 fastback. I've had a '76 Cobra and a '71 Mach 1 since then, absolutely love the Mustang. I think the new one is fantastic. If I didn't need four doors for the kids I'd be in one now.

Wow, I think that third mechanic is really trying to take you for a ride. It's pretty easy to tell if you have the turbo or not. Do you have a boost pressure gauge on your dash, sort of between and above the temp and fuel gauges? If not, then your car is not a turbo. Also, the part about the car catching fire is a scare tactic. The flash point for motor oil is very high, I've spilled oil onto hot exhaust parts by accident and all you get is a lot of smoke, which is what I think this guy is trying to give you. If there were insulation or something close to the exhaust, and that had gotten soaked in oil, then that might be a concern, otherwise ignore that.

My advice would be to avoid that third mechanic at all costs, and try and find another third opinion. If two guys said it was the RMS, then chances are that's what it is. The prices you were quoted seem to be the norm, I think I just happen to find someone who does the job for cheap. Most dealerships in my area are charging between $1000 and $1100 for the job. If you were to get under the front of the car and remove the bottom splash pan, then you should be able to see that the point at which the engine and transmission are joined is wet with oil. It's hard to tell anything with the under engine splash pan in place, as any dripping oil will accumulate in there and then run another direction before finding a way out. Then the location of the drip on the driveway might not be anywhere close to where the actual leak is occuring. However, you could ask the mechanic that gave you the estimate to show you where the oil is leaking from while the car is on the lift. It should be coming from between the engine and transmission as I've mentioned.

I also debated doing this job myself, and decided against it, also because of time contraints.

I differ with you on one thing, however. You say that the drivetrain cannot be removed from above. I have to tell you that that, to the best of my knowledge, is incorrect. In fact, Volvo's own recommended procedure is to remove the drivetrain from above and to separate the engine and transmission when the unit is outside of the car.

I am aware that the Chilton and Haynes manuals recommend the subframe procedure, and I think that that is the procedure to use if you are working in a production environment, where time is money.

If, however, you are a DIY, don't care that the car is laid up for a week and that you are going to be laid up with it for that week, I would suggest that removing the drivetrain as a unit, from above, is the best way to go.

When I considered doing this job myself, I spent three, or four, hours going through the procedures using both methods. As someone who would be working by myself, with just a cherry picker, the idea of lifting an entire unit out of the car, seemed a lot more appealing to me than laying under 800 pounds, struggling to separate 300 pounds from 500 pounds.

The lifting procedure looks like there are many more details to attend to (electric, hydraulic, etc., etc., etc.), and it would take a lot more time, but it appears to be a safer, more methodical procedure that is more easily accomplished by a single person.

Thats good info, thanks.

I often thought that there must be some good reason why the assembly can't come out from the top, but could never see what it might be. The engine bay is certainly large enough on the top to do it, but I never thought much past that. Being that I don't have a Volvo factory manual, and the Chilton and Haynes both outline the bottom removal proceedure, I never went much into thinking about it from the top once I decided to have it done by a shop. My indie buddy used to do it from the bottom as well, and the older Saabs were apparently the same way according to him, and equally as much a pain in the ass. You are correct though, the prospect of doing it from the top is much more appealing that the thought of laying under the car for all that time and trying to seperate the motor from the trans.

Man I hate front wheel drive drivetrains, and I'm not saying that just because I'm into old cars. Rear wheel drive layouts are so much easier to deal with, old or new. We pulled the trans on my buddies '97 Supra in about an hour and a half in his garage. Hardest part was one bolt on the bell housing, took about 4 extensions and two universal joints to get to it. Other than that it was a breeze.

Hey - thanks for your email. I am really debating whether to tackle this myself. I am not a pro mechanic, but a fairly experinced DIY. I can have the car laid up for a few days, as I have a second car to drive. I am more concerend about puting th hwole thing back together and then having some major problem with the tranny.

I did read hayes and got the general flow of supporting the motor from the top, then dropping the subframe and wedging out the tranny...do you know if it is straightforward to remove/replace tranny?

If I could get the job done for $600 I think I would pay it, but $850 plus tax is pushing a grand for a car that is worth about 2 grand....

anyway, I appreciate your comments!
mark

Yeah, I deliberated over doing this job for about two weeks, should I, shouldn't I, back and forth. I actually went out and bought a bunch of stuff to do it, then ended up giving those parts to the shop, which I guess helped out with lowering the final charge. A few things to know, I would get new flywheel bolts and also the large center axle nuts, I wouldn't reuse either of those. Other than that I think it's pretty safe to reuse just about everything else. I know the manuals tell you to replace every friggin nut and bolt in the car, but I checked with my indie buddy and he said he pretty much only worries about the ones that have high rates of movement or vibration, like the flywheel and the axles. Plus the axle nuts are steaked, so trying to reuse them is not a wise idea. Also, if you have any broken or worn motor/tranny/subframe mounts nows a good time to do those. My upper torque mount was hangin on by a thread I think, and right after I got the RMS done it broke, so I had to replace it about 2 weeks after. No big deal, it's a cheap part and an easy fix, but could have been done when everything else was apart. The lower mounts are more of an issue, they are harder to access, and you have to unbolt those anyway to do the RMS. As far as I can tell, once the subframe is down, and everything is removed or moved out of the way (steering rack, exhaust, axles, etc.) it looks like seperating the trans is pretty straightforward once it's lowered enough and on the right angle. Just make sure the new seal is well seated, I've seen people post here that had this job done at a shop and the seal was not installed correctly and it leaked like crazy right after the job was done. They had to have the job re-done, at no charge, but they lost their car for another day. My last advice is to either buy or rent an engine hoist, don't try using an assembly to span the engine bay. With a hoist you can raise and lower the whole thing much easier. If you release the catches on the hood hinges the hood will go just about completely verticle and getting a hoist in is easy from the side or the front. From what I understand the whole front of the car has to be at least 2.5 to 3 feet off the ground to do this comfortably, so you'll be doing everything that's accessible from the top first, then all the underside stuff second.

Good luck again.

Oh yeah, one other important thing, DO NOT LET THE TORQUE CONVERTER COME OUT OF THE TRANSMISSION! Something about the seals between the torque converter and the tranny, if the two are pulled apart you're pretty much done. I saw a new trans assembly on a pallett on the floor in the shop and it had a steel strap running across the face of the bell housing to hold the converter in during shipping. I asked why this was and why they didn't just ship them seperately and that was the reason. It's some kind of one way seal and if they come apart you can't just stick the converter back in, it will not seal correctly again. When you drop your trans you have to make sure the converter comes away from the engine with the trans. Just go slow and lever the converter back into the bell housing as you go.

Haynes manual might be the right resource.

hi!! i did my own not that long ago - took me and helper (bearing in mind we're both qualified and experienced mechanics!!) 13 hours - but that did include a one hour lunch break!! 1st time i'd done one (on a 1996 855 2.5 10v automatic).

Somewhere i think i have a few 'notes' and a couple of photos!! Got same for evaporator change as well!!

kevin.loomes@btinternet.com if youre interested