posted by
someone claiming to be Ronjon
on
Mon Mar 24 03:29 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
|
|
Hi everybody,
My ’93 850 automatic is very, very, very slow (170 HP). Whenever I quick accelerate, it down shifts to 3rd gear and drives me insane because of its poor horse power and it is rough on the transmission.
During city driving, I rarely go over 45 mph and using gear position 3 provides marvelous acceleration (like a champ)! Besides lower gas mileage and a little more engine wear and tear (due to higher RPM) is there any detrimental effect to the tank?
I like to keep the car since I completed a long term maintenance (yes, the infamous rear main seal). A/C is original and works excellent, no evaporator issue or any other major bug. Regular maintenance are done on time.
Thanks.
Ronjon
|
|
-
posted by
someone claiming to be Scott
on
Tue Apr 1 20:33 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
|
|
What you are probably doing is locking out the overdrive (so-called "4th gear"). This will not have any deleterious efffects on the drivetrain unless, of course, you were to drive in third at high speeds.
IMO, a lot of autoboxes shift into overdrive/4th too soon. Your approach to this problem is reasonable and understandable.
|
|
-
posted by
someone claiming to be David Lo Pan
on
Wed Apr 2 04:18 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
|
|
<<<
What you are probably doing is locking out the overdrive (so-called "4th gear"). This will not have any deleterious efffects on the drivetrain unless, of course, you were to drive in third at high speeds.
IMO, a lot of autoboxes shift into overdrive/4th too soon. Your approach to this problem is reasonable and understandable.
>>>
In the AW50-42 tranny, there should be a lock-up (I suppose an effective OD in top) on all top 3 gears (ie 2-4).
As I understand it (haven't checked my manual to be sure, but from memory...) using position 3, prevents the tranny from using lock-up - which on an ongoing basis (from what I've read) is a Bad Thing (TM).
Just word of caution.
There's a difference between simple preventing the tranny going into top (4th), and preventing lock-up, as - as far as I know - when the tranny engages lockup, it has an effect on the heat absorbed by the ATF.
--
Lo Pan's Ghost
|
|
-
|
|
Now that would really suprise me if the transmission refused to lockup in 3rd gear in D3.
My former Taurus (89, AXOD tranny) locked up in 3rd and 4th gears in "OD" and in 3rd gear in "D".
My Dad's 99 Civic locks up in the top two (maybe top three) gears in D4 and will also lockup in D3.
My friend's former 87 Camry did the same thing.
Of course I haven't driven an autobox on a regular basis in ages. Then again I also marvel at someone who can call a 170HP Volvo sedan underpowered. Both of mine made 162 from the factory, and in their varying states of decay are quite capable of keeping up around town (Volvo's questionable gearing choices aside).
- alex
'85 244 Turbo
'84 245 Turbo
|
|
-
posted by
someone claiming to be David Lo Pan
on
Wed Apr 2 23:27 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
|
|
<<>>
I'm not sure - and I have been rather lazy in not looking it up in my manual ;-)
I suppose it's an assumption that everything that applies to the autobox in my S70 applies to the revision of the same AW50-42 in the 850 models.
But I'm sure I vaguely remember that using 3 prevented it engaging lock-up at least in 3rd (dunno about 2nd).
<<>>
Well there is that.
Underpowered seems a touch unfair. Perhaps not up to the power of other vehicles that it's being compared / driven / raced with - but hardly underpowered.
Perhaps people would benefit from not driving so (likely) competitively.
--
Lo Pan's Ghost
|
|
-
posted by
someone claiming to be David Lo Pan
on
Tue Apr 1 03:49 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
|
|
The only thing I'd mention - and it's a fairly general comment from research on modern autos, is that it's generally a bad thing to prevent lock-up, on an on-going basis.
And using position 3, aren't you doing that? Won't it not engage lock-up, when in this position?
It may not be a significant factor, but from reading, I got the impression that long-term preventing lock-up occurring could be bad. I think it was probably to do with wear-and-tear / build-up of heat in the TC.
What condition is your ATF in? Given that you use position 3 quite extensively, it might be an idea to be quite pro-active in monitoring the condition of your ATF.
The fact that you don't currently have issues, or that a few other people replying may not have, may be just indicative of luck or good fortune - it may be entirely coincidental, the sample size is rather small.
On the other hand, you may have no issues at all...
As a general gut instinct, it doesn't seem to feel sound to extensively use a gear position that isn't the norm, for normal driving - and I'd add the lock-up issue thing as a possibility, here.
--
Lo Pan's Ghost
|
|
-
posted by
someone claiming to be Ronjon
on
Wed Apr 2 08:26 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
|
|
You are right that the transmission (model type: AW 50-42, for ’93 850) engages lock-up clutch in three highest gears. I am not sure if D3 position prevents it (as compare to D4/Over drive). If it does, then there will be slippage in the torque converter. I think this slippage is harmful.
The higher rpm on the engine will make the transmission work harder and fluid to heat up. I see your point on look "monitor the condition of....ATF". If I keep driving in D3, I should be careful not to go over 45 mph on 3rd gear (about 3k engine rpm).
Ronjon
ps: "Mike Harris in Sedona" on this thread mentioned driving for 90k like this. It that is the case then clutch lock may take place in D3.
|
|
-
posted by
someone claiming to be David Lo Pan
on
Wed Apr 2 23:34 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
|
|
<<<
You are right that the transmission (model type: AW 50-42, for ’93 850) engages lock-up clutch in three highest gears. I am not sure if D3 position prevents it (as compare to D4/Over drive). If it does, then there will be slippage in the torque converter. I think this slippage is harmful.
>>>
From what I read, it wasn't necessarily that there was slippage, per se - that always happens with torque convertors, 'cept when in lock-up.
It was more that ATs that were designed to electronically operate lock-up as and when the ECU saw fit, during normal driving, shouldn't be prevented from doing so, because it cause "issues".
<<<
The higher rpm on the engine will make the transmission work harder and fluid to heat up. I see your point on look "monitor the condition of....ATF". If I keep driving in D3, I should be careful not to go over 45 mph on 3rd gear (about 3k engine rpm).
>>>
If it does use lock-up in 3, I guess it's not really an issue - but monitoring the ATF is always a Good Thing (TM).
<<<
ps: "Mike Harris in Sedona" on this thread mentioned driving for 90k like this. It that is the case then clutch lock may take place in D3.
>>>
Driving for any particular period using a technique doesn't neceesarily imply that it does or doesn't behave a certain way - this individual may be largely unaware of this, or have not noticed whether it does occur.
I would have thought that if you've driven for extended periods in position 3, you'd already be aware of whether it engages lock-up in 3? I can normally detect when lock-up occurs, admittedly it's a bit more subtle than a normal gear change, but detectable, nonetheless.
--
Lo Pan's Ghost
|
|
-
posted by
someone claiming to be Ronjon
on
Thu Apr 3 01:48 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
|
|
In D4, there seems to be five shifts. Even though each shift brings reduction in engine RMP, one of them has to be a lock not a shift.
In D3, the car shifts through first three gears. After that there is no ‘gear shift’ feel or reduction in engine RMP.
I do not know a mechanical lock, if there is any in D3, can be impossible to detect when driving.
Underpowered: The car is heavy. What else can I say? However, I like the boxy Volvos and its low profile. ‘wish I could stick a Corvette C5 in it.
The D3 is providing the power I was looking for. I do not have the extended 1st gear ride as in SPORTS mode but a late 3rd gear shift and stay on 3rd when I need the power, in D3, is an excellent find. I might try this and see what happens.
Please do not hesitate to inform me if you guys find any info about this matter. Here is my e-mail: ronjonbarua@juno.com
Ronjon
|
|
-
posted by
someone claiming to be David Lo Pan
on
Thu Apr 3 04:13 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
|
|
<<<
In D4, there seems to be five shifts. Even though each shift brings reduction in engine RMP, one of them has to be a lock not a shift.
>>>
Sounds right - it wouldn't engage lock up in the lower gears, if accelerating - but would in top at some point.
<<<
In D3, the car shifts through first three gears. After that there is no ‘gear shift’ feel or reduction in engine RMP.
>>>
There you have it, then. It's not using lock-up in 3.
For the information I read on the implications of effectively disabling the lock-up see:-
http://au.geocities.com/ozbrick850/at-driveline.html
<<<
I do not know a mechanical lock, if there is any in D3, can be impossible to detect when driving.
>>>
Even if you didn't audibly / physically feel it, you would notice a slight drop in revs.
<<<
Underpowered: The car is heavy. What else can I say?
>>>
Well it depends on what you're comparing it with, and what sort of expectations of performance you have.
<<<
The D3 is providing the power I was looking for. I do not have the extended 1st gear ride as in SPORTS mode but a late 3rd gear shift and stay on 3rd when I need the power, in D3, is an excellent find. I might try this and see what happens.
Please do not hesitate to inform me if you guys find any info about this matter.
>>>
Look at the discussion(s) on ATs on the URL I referenced - then make your own mind up. I guess some will come down to theoritcal stuff, and expectations on longevity and reliability. That and blind luck...
--
Lo Pan's Ghost
|
|
-
|
|
|
That link is a bunch of bunk written by a clueless luddite. Of course he won't like any of the “new fangled technology”. And I drive an old, mostly not computer controlled car.
The useful information contained within is pretty limited. Yes, you'll waste gas. Yes, you'll heat the fluid up more. But that's why your car has (should have) a transmission fluid cooler (either built into the radiator or an external one). If you're in doubt install something to monitor the temperature, use synthetic fluid, and install an external cooler.
I suspect that if driving around for extended periods of time in D3 would indeed damage the transmission on your Volvo, that such facts would have been mentioned in the owner's manual. If you're at all concerned, track down someone who rebuilds these for a living and see what they have to say.
I'll mention the Taurus again here. It had the notorious AXOD transmission (in general it was a huge piece of shit, not just the transaxle). I never once had a problem with the lockup converter. I can think of any number of other transmissions installed in Volvos (ZF4HP22 comes to mind) where I've never seen someone complain about the locking and unlocking of the torque converter. If you're experiencing problems like these with your Volvo, see if you can get the transmission computer re-programmed. This is not how they're programed to operate.
- alex
|
|
-
posted by
someone claiming to be David Lo Pan
on
Thu Apr 3 21:03 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
|
|
<<<
That link is a bunch of bunk written by a clueless luddite.
>>>
Bunk??? Clueless luddite?
The page, quite accurately, posts a discussion on modern autos, and specifically describes the interaction of the ECU and torque convertor lock-up - did you read it, or just skim it?
<<<
Of course he won't like any of the “new fangled technology”.
>>>
Where does he say that???
He mentions that *some* may not like it...
<<<
The useful information contained within is pretty limited. Yes, you'll waste gas. Yes, you'll heat the fluid up more.
>>>
The point isn't merely that you'll generate more heat. The point, more explicitly is that ECU controlled gearboxes - in general driving ie the bulk of the time - expect to be able to control this electronically. And in doing so, this effect the design characteristics of the box in general, and in dealing with heat.
As I understand it, the 850 / 70 series Volvo weren't equipped with any additional cooling for the ATF, and don't provide an easy opportuinity (in terms of access and available space) to fit additional cooling mechanisms.
<<<
But that's why your car has (should have) a transmission fluid cooler (either built into the radiator or an external one). If you're in doubt install something to monitor the temperature, use synthetic fluid, and install an external cooler.
>>>
See my previous comment.
If it's not ideal for your means, perhaps consider a more powerful car - what's the point in risking something quite outside the norm, for your gearbox.
It's not the normal, nor design, expected behaviour, for drivers to use 3 for normal driving (ie the bulk of the time they are driving the car).
<<<
I suspect that if driving around for extended periods of time in D3 would indeed damage the transmission on your Volvo, that such facts would have been mentioned in the owner's manual.
>>>
You may well suspect that.
But in fairness, Volvo / Asin Warner probably don't expect their car / gearbox to be driven normally, for the bulk of the time in 3 - doesn't the handbook itself suggest D is for that???
They probably don't mention anything, because they probably don't expect it to be used that way - quite reasonably. Normally, people wanting a faster / more powerful car, buy a faster, more powerful car.
<<<
If you're at all concerned, track down someone who rebuilds these for a living and see what they have to say.
>>>
They may, or may not have experience of people treating their gearbox this way.
All you can really do, is do as much research as possible - educate yourself on the issue, and make an informed choice.
<<<
I'll mention the Taurus again here. It had the notorious AXOD transmission (in general it was a huge piece of shit, not just the transaxle). I never once had a problem with the lockup converter. I can think of any number of other transmissions installed in Volvos (ZF4HP22 comes to mind) where I've never seen someone complain about the locking and unlocking of the torque converter. If you're experiencing problems like these with your Volvo, see if you can get the transmission computer re-programmed.
>>>
I'm not saying driving in 3 will necessarily cause issues with the lock-up. I'm suggesting it will bypass or not use lock-up, and that may well cause issues, long-term.
<<<
This is not how they're programed to operate.
>>>
Indeed - my point exactly. These gearboxes are not designed for drivers to - long-term, and for the bulk of their driving - bypass the electronic lock-up. However, I'm suggesting that using 3, will indeed do so. You are right - the gearbox is not intended to be used that way for day-to-day, general driving - that's what D is for.
--
Lo Pan's Ghost
- alex
|
|
-
|
|
|
My problem with that article is that he starts off complaining about electronically controlled anything (carbs, fuel injection, transmissions, ignition, etc). If he believes that electronic automatic transmissions are that much worse than their fully hydrualic ones, he's obviously a bit clueless.
Then he goes off to rant about a design flaw in some GM transmissions. The only GM transmission to make its way into a Volvo has been the “Geartronic” in the S80 T6.
Yes, not having the torque converter locked up will increase the temperature of the transmission fluid. All the more reason to run synth fluid. However, if there was a danger from prolonged use.. why would Volvo (or any other car maker) recommend that the “3” position be used for hilly terrain.. certainly a situation where the torque converter is likely to be unlocked anyways and certainly a situation where increased stress is put on the fluid.
As far as transmission rebuilders go.. I have no interest. I haven't owned a car with an automatic transmission in a few years. It's been even longer than that since I've driven one with a lockup converter. My point was, and still is, if transmission failure or damage is a common result of prolonged driving without the converter locked up (as in “3”).. someone who rebuilds these AW transmissions will probably have seen it.
My assertation was not that driving around in 3rd gear will result in the lockup mechanism working properly. My assertation was that the author of that article based his experience on sub-par GM transmissions. My point was, and still is, a properly designed lockup automatic transmission won't behave erratically at all. It will feel like an additional gear, and it won't hunt. Point being, Volvo has used at least one (ZF4HP22) lockup transmission that works well in that regard and others (AW72L AW30/40LE) that just don't. Hell, even Ford has managed to create an otherwise awful transmission that didn't have an erratic lockup mechanism. This would seem to indicate that the author of that article is merely generalizing about his experiences with crappy GM transmissions... and such generalizations should not be applied to everyday situations.
That said. YES. DRIVNG AROUND WITH THE TORQUE CONVERTER UNLOCKED WILL INCREASE THE TEMPERATURE OF YOUR AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION FLUID. Doesn't matter what brand or type of automatic transmission. For a transmission where Volvo's expectations were of a 100k+ mile lifetime, I seriously doubt that, if given regular fluid flushes.. with synth fluid, driving around in “3” would do any damage.
- alex
|
|
-
posted by
someone claiming to be David Lo Pan
on
Sun Apr 6 22:12 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
|
|
<<<
My problem with that article is that he starts off complaining about electronically controlled anything (carbs, fuel injection, transmissions, ignition, etc).
>>>
No he doesn't!
Did you actually *truly* read it? Or just skim it?
He's making a commentary on the electronic development of cars, and suggesting that *some* may not like it - but whether or not, it's going to happen.
I think you jumped on something, here, that's prejudiced you against the info on that site.
This guy isn't a luddite - he's hypothetically presenting the case for people who are quite mechanically minded, but who he thinks won't be over enamoured with the sophistication of modern autos, and the fact that there's a lot less that the home / DIY mechanic can do these days.
At least be fair on the guy / article.
<<<
If he believes that electronic automatic transmissions are that much worse than their fully hydrualic ones, he's obviously a bit clueless.
>>>
He doesn't appear to to me - I can only recommend you actually read, and inwardly digest this page again, because I think you missed something quite important to the tone of his pages, and are doing him quite a disservice. Read it *properly* again, before being so critical, because quite clearly you've missed something quite fundamental in any previous views.
<<<
Yes, not having the torque converter locked up will increase the temperature of the transmission fluid.
>>>
That wasn't his sole point. His point was that some people, knowing that this goes on, under largely electronic control, and not having the driver be able to actually choose to stop it, may mean *some* drivers / owners, would like to disable it for means of performance / control - or just that they could, because they don't like the electronic battle of wills.
He's suggesting that as the design of these particular auto trannies, *in the main* is expecting for the ECU to be able to engage lock-up, no doubt the cooling and dealing with heat-build up, is factored into this, for normal driving.
<<<
However, if there was a danger from prolonged use.. why would Volvo (or any other car maker) recommend that the “3” position be used for hilly terrain..
>>>
??? They recommend it for - as you've said - "hilly terrain". When either the ECU is slightly wrong-footed, and selecting, or perhaps slightly hunting, or more engine braking is required. They *don't* recommend it for "normal" driving. They recommend D for that.
I'll quote my handbook (98 S70, with the same (perhaps slightly revised, but largely the same) gearbox) "The normal driving position is indicated by D."
<<<
certainly a situation where the torque converter is likely to be unlocked anyways and certainly a situation where increased stress is put on the fluid.
>>>
Yup - agreed, for hilly terrains, or otherwise where the use of position 3 is most appropriate.
However, this doesn't begin to suggest that this makes it quite alright to use this position permanently for normal driving, because the driver would like to keep hold of the un-locked-up 3rd gear for performance reasons.
<<<
As far as transmission rebuilders go.. I have no interest. I haven't owned a car with an automatic transmission in a few years. It's been even longer than that since I've driven one with a lockup converter. My point was, and still is, if transmission failure or damage is a common result of prolonged driving without the converter locked up (as in “3”).. someone who rebuilds these AW transmissions will probably have seen it.
>>>
They may have done - they may also not know exactly what the driver was doing to cause such failures - people do tend to be a bit liberable with the truth when driving somewhat abnormally, then a failure occurs.
However, if it truly is an question that begs to be answered, I'd honestly recommend the OP write to either Asin Warner or Volvo, or both, to see what they say. Sure, there may be the normal degree of generalisation, but if phrased correctly, you never know, some important, useful information may flow.
If nothing else, he'll get the authoritative take.
<<<
My assertation was not that driving around in 3rd gear will result in the lockup mechanism working properly. My assertation was that the author of that article based his experience on sub-par GM transmissions.
>>>
He's not, IMO, and I think you've got more than one example of getting the wrong end of the stick from this guy's web page.
I think he's suggesting that the design of these autoboxes would be for the transmission to be able to expect to be able to engage lock-up, as and when the ECU sees fit, in *normal* driving.
<<<
My point was, and still is, a properly designed lockup automatic transmission won't behave erratically at all.
>>>
*Who* was suggesting it would behave erratically???
<<<
It will feel like an additional gear, and it won't hunt. Point being, Volvo has used at least one (ZF4HP22) lockup transmission that works well in that regard and others (AW72L AW30/40LE) that just don't.
>>>
To be completely honest, the AW50-42LE in my S70 seems to work completely correctly, I've got no issues with it, and / or the use of lock-up. And mine isn't shy of miles (125k miles, currently).
<<<
Hell, even Ford has managed to create an otherwise awful transmission that didn't have an erratic lockup mechanism.
>>>
*Where* exactly are you getting this "erratic" bit from?
<<<
This would seem to indicate that the author of that article is merely generalizing about his experiences with crappy GM transmissions... and such generalizations should not be applied to everyday situations.
>>>
He is generalising, to a certain degree. He's suggesting that *some* people - *clearly* not necessarily himself, but *some* people may not be happy with the fact that modern autoboxes control this, and may be tempted to try and circumvent this. Sheesh, at least read the stuff written, *correctly* before taking a swipe at it...
<<<
That said. YES. DRIVNG AROUND WITH THE TORQUE CONVERTER UNLOCKED WILL INCREASE THE TEMPERATURE OF YOUR AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION FLUID. Doesn't matter what brand or type of automatic transmission. For a transmission where Volvo's expectations were of a 100k+ mile lifetime, I seriously doubt that, if given regular fluid flushes.. with synth fluid, driving around in “3” would do any damage.
>>>
And you are entitled to your opinion, as am I, as is this guy who's web page I've cited.
Point being, he makes a valid point. The design and the ECU, expect to be able to do it, as part of normal driving.
Us bickering back and forward are not likely to take this forward - I can honestly only recomment that the original poster write to Asin Warner, and / or Volvo, and ask them their recommendations for normal driving, given the frame of reference for his question.
--
Lo Pan's Ghost
|
|
-
posted by
someone claiming to be Ronjon
on
Fri Apr 4 01:52 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
|
|
In the owner’s manual it says that, a lock-up will feel like a shift. D3 does not have that one extra shift-like-feel and, we probably have established that, D3 does not have a lock-up.
That manual also says that one can use D3 for hilly terrain. If someone lives in a city like, Pittsburgh, PA, USA that has a lot of ups and downs and quite hilly, ‘think one has to use D3 most of the time. Otherwise, it will go from high to low gear quite frequently.
I have few questions,
Since there is no lock up in D3 and slippage will occur, are the clutch plates going to wear out due to slippage? It this the problem we should be concern about besides high ATF temperature?
To solve the temperature issue due to slippage or engine rpm can I move from organic to synthetic? Do I have to drain all the organic/petroleum based fluid out or a small amount left in the system should not hurt, mixed with synthetic?
Ronjon
|
|
-
posted by
someone claiming to be David Lo Pan
on
Fri Apr 4 02:24 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
|
|
<<<
That manual also says that one can use D3 for hilly terrain.
>>>
Reasonable comment - for hills and such, selecting different gears or gear limits is useful - if the transmission may change up, when it would be undesirable.
Also useful when descending hills, so that a certain degree of engine braking can be used to control speed (rather than suffering brake fade).
However, I think it's a stretch to say this validates it for normal, everday driving.
<<<
Since there is no lock up in D3 and slippage will occur, are the clutch plates going to wear out due to slippage? It this the problem we should be concern about besides high ATF temperature?
>>>
The internal clutches in an autobox, are only used for actually engaging / changing gears *within* the gearbox. Otherwise, the slippage occurs within the realm of the torque convertor - which will simply result in more heat.
<<<
To solve the temperature issue due to slippage or engine rpm can I move from organic to synthetic? Do I have to drain all the organic/petroleum based fluid out or a small amount left in the system should not hurt, mixed with synthetic?
>>>
It seems an untested, unproven scenario. No doubt the spec of the fluid that should be within the AW50-42 isn't solely concerned with cooling - no doubt there are other valid, relevant properties and concerns.
I previously mentioned my understanding of additional cooling for this gearbox's implementation in the 850 and 70 series cars. That's not to say it's impossible - just merely from what I understand quite difficult.
I guess the truly important thing would be the comparison with what would happen in D. If whilst driving in D, the gearbox would automatically be engaging lock-up for significant periods - then as a comparison, it stands to reason your use is going to have quite different from designed expectations.
However, if during your normal driving, quite a degree of hunting and gear changing would occur anyways, then it may be largely moot.
If you are cruising at certain speeds for any periods, it may be that in D, it would normally engage lock-up, but in 3, may well not do.
My honest feelings are that the more manual selections should (in general) be the exception, rather than the rule, whilst you are driving. I guess some of that may come down to the terrain and the environment that you drive in - but if, as your previous posts have suggested, your only true reason for using 3 most of the time is merely to hang on to, and retain performance - I'd have to say it seems a rather flawed approach.
You may well be lucky, though - and / or the impact may be negligible.
--
Lo Pan's Ghost
|
|
-
posted by
someone claiming to be Ronjon
on
Fri Apr 4 06:10 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
|
|
During a slippage, inside the torque converter, a mechanical coupling between the engine and the transmission is not achieved. I do not know if this will cause quicker wear and tear in there. However, if ATF temperature is the main concern then it is possible that the system cools off the fluid well, compensating temperature rise due to slippage. This may explain why one Volvo owner drove 90k miles, using D3 around the city, and not have any issue, however, yet.
High ATF temperature can be addressed via replacing it more often (every 10k miles or less). I do not know if too much ATF replacement can cause any harm. However, AllDAta.com service manual specifically mentions that it should be replaced only if high temperature is recorded or under extensive towing or burnt odor / discoloration of the ATF occurs. I do not know why.
I may use D3 during short distances (10 or 15 minutes drives and under 3000 engine rpm). I hope that is OK.
Ronjon
|
|
-
posted by
someone claiming to be David Lo Pan
on
Sun Apr 6 22:25 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
|
|
<<<
High ATF temperature can be addressed via replacing it more often (every 10k miles or less). I do not know if too much ATF replacement can cause any harm.
>>>
10k, for ATF, on a fairly modern autobox, seems way overkill, unless you truly do drive in quite harsh conditions - and then you'd have to question your choice of vehicle.
As it stands, I hardly think it makes sense to over-maintain the hell outta your car / autobox, because you wanna drive it out of the envelope, in order to make it perform better.
I honestly think it would make more sense to consider a change of car - either for a more powerful one, or a manual transmission, if the one you've got is not up to your performance expectations, such that you are prepared to over-maintaint it so.
I mean every 10k for a fairly modern autobox is almost at engine oil frequencies. And it ain't cheap. Surely that can't make sense to you?
I know that here in the UK, the residual value of my 98 S70 auto, ain't particularly that much any more - surely the residual value of a 93 850 isn't gonna be much in your neck of the woods? Surely it would make more sense to bite the bullet and trade for a car that performs more to your needs / expectations (either in terms of power, or transmission) - than go all ballistic on maintenance?
<<<
However, AllDAta.com service manual specifically mentions that it should be replaced only if high temperature is recorded or under extensive towing or burnt odor / discoloration of the ATF occurs. I do not know why.
>>>
Because ATF isn't subject to the same degree of contamination as engine oil. And fairly modern autos are manufactured and electronically operated to better tolerances than the autoboxes of yore.
When I said monitor your ATF - I merely meant monitor. Check the level, colour and characteristics every so often, and see whether it shows evidence of thermal degradation - and if necessary, change it as appropriate.
<<<
I may use D3 during short distances (10 or 15 minutes drives and under 3000 engine rpm). I hope that is OK.
>>>
I would consider it like this, D is for normal driving. If driving in hilly terrain, or when the ECU seems to be slightly wrong footing you, drive by *exception* then. But for normal stuff use D - you shouldn't have any concerns, then.
If the demands of your drive truly make 3 more *appropriate* I'm not suggesting you shouldn't use it. I merely suggesting that to use it to make it perform better, for normal driving seems quite flawed.
If it truly is that much of a problem for you, surely a faster and / or a manual car is what you'd be more suited to.
It just seems like you asked the question, looking for a certain answer, and when some answers aren't quite to your suiting, you still seem to want to fight it at all turns.
At the end of the day, it's your car, to do with as you will. If you truly do *honestly* want the question answered, arbitrarily, rather than with a certain polarisation, write to Asin Warner or Volvo, or both. Perhaps if you phrase the question quite detailed, given what has come out of the discussion here, you never know, you may well get a reasonable answer, rather than the normal, corporate fob-off speak.
--
Lo Pan's Ghost
|
|
-
posted by
someone claiming to be Ronjon
on
Mon Apr 7 02:00 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
|
|
Thanks for the suggestion writing to the manufacturers. I might do that some day.
Que: Among the five rpm drops in D postion, which one is the clutch lock?
Ronjon
|
|
-
posted by
someone claiming to be David Lo Pan
on
Mon Apr 7 02:25 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
|
|
<<<
Thanks for the suggestion writing to the manufacturers. I might do that some day.
>>>
It's probably the only way you'll actually get anything authoritative to resolve your quandry. Otherwise, as it stands, you'll merely get bickering around the points.
<<<
Que: Among the five rpm drops in D postion, which one is the clutch lock?
>>>
If I'm understanding you correctly - assuming you accelerated up to a cruising speed, in D, then backed off the throttle, so that you were cruising at a fairly constant speed, and at the threshold at which 4th and lock-up would be used, you'd probably get 1st -> 2nd -> 3rd -> 4th -> lock-up.
So from what I'm getting from your question, probably the last one, but I don't understand why you'd get 5 rpm drops, I would have expected 4, unless your acceleration was reasonably gentle, or paused in stages, in which in may engage lock-up in the intermediary gears (2nd or 3rd). I'm puzzled as to why you are getting 5.
I understand why you may use the term "clutch lock", but the lock-up is within the torque convertor. The other clutches that are present within an autobox are actually within the gearbox (ie not the torque convertor) and are merely used momentarily to engage distinct gears.
However, if this was - say - slower roads, with varying times at varying speeds (ie not constant acceleration) you may get lock-up engaged in any of the intermediate gears (ie 2nd and 3rd, too).
But in normal, constant, acceleration up to a reasonable cruising speed - the 'box will probably not engage lock-up in any of the intermediary gears, as it probably detects you still want to accelerate.
At some point, when in 4th / top, the ECU will decide to engage lock-up - probably likely rationale being throttle position, road-speed, gearbox mode (ie sport or economy) - that sort of thing.
--
Lo Pan's Ghost
|
|
-
posted by
someone claiming to be Ronjon
on
Mon Apr 7 02:52 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
|
|
You are right, it is 4 rev drop not 5.
|
|
-
posted by
someone claiming to be Ronjon
on
Thu Apr 3 08:46 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
|
|
Thanks for the URL. There was some good info there.
I am surprised how few people have not damaged their transmission having the clutch not locked-up in D3. That is a mystery than luck and only a design engineer can assure us otherwise.
In the AllData.com service manual, it is said that "This [lock-up] eliminates slippage and results in good fuel economy. The AW 50-42 is electronically controlled, allowing lock-up to be engaged in the three highest gears." They do not mention if this going to work in D3.
If a drop in engine RPM is a way to tell lock-up clutch has been engaged, then D3 does not have that.
Well, I will go back to D4 for the time being until further findings.
Thank you for everyone's help.
Ronjon
|
|
-
|
|
|
What good info?
Sheesh. So GM has some transmissions out there that will self destruct if the torque converter isn't locked up. Bah. That's like saying you shouldn't rev your car in neutral because it will cause the transmission self destruct (like the ZF4HP22).
That said, the lockup that's become all the rage refers to the torque converter. I believe that the clutch packs spend most of their time fully locked or unlocked.. but not too much time (unless there's some sort of problem) slipping. This goes for cars with and without lockup torque converters.
- alex
|
|
-
posted by
someone claiming to be Ronjon
on
Mon Apr 7 02:12 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
|
|
Hi Alex,
I have limited mechanical skills. So, info provided seemed knowledgeable. I appreciate your input.
I am sorry if these discussions have made you frustrated. I apologize for that. I believe none of us intended invoking such situation.
Ronjon
|
|
-
posted by
someone claiming to be David Lo Pan
on
Sun Apr 6 22:29 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
|
|
<<<
What good info?
>>>
There's a lot of reasonable info on that website - and you've obviously jumped to the wrong conclusion about most of it - which appears to have polarised you against it.
Read it again, thoroughly - you were making points about the writers standpoint which were clearly quite wrong. Who knows what else you may be wrongly criticising about it.
To be fair, there's not an awful lot of sites out there on the net that have much detail on the Volvo 850 / 70 series autobox implementation, I think you are being overly harsh.
<<<
Sheesh.
>>>
Word.
--
Lo Pan's Ghost
|
|
-
|
|
|
Yes, but your fuel mileage will be reduced since the car will never shift into 4th gear. Don't know (why) you would do this?
If you kept your car in one gear all of the time, it would eat more fuel than normal. Example: When the car needs to kick down into a lower gear, it wouldn't be able because of the gear position, so you would need to punch the accelerator to achieve the same effect, thus reducing mileage. The transmission can change gears efficiently and the mileage drop would be insignificant to pressing down the accelerator.
Rick in Denver
|
|
-
posted by
someone claiming to be Ronjon
on
Thu Mar 27 10:47 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
|
|
The car is a champ using drive position-3 (say D3) around city (under 40 to 45 mph).
My ’93 850 GLT has low horsepower and it is heavy. I like quick acceleration without too much down shifting. D3 provides that. Less down shift will prolong transmission life. Moreover, in D3, the 2nd to 3rd shift point moves up (D4: 15 mph, D3: 25 mph), reducing transmission wear and tear at low mph driving. Lastly, D3 position gives experience like a manual gear shifting (my first choice would be a manual transmission car).
Considering, the transmission dies before the engine, I do not mind 500 or 600 higher engine rpm and a few extra dollars at the gas pump. I plan to drive this way with a tank of gas and see it there is significant cost issue.
Ronjon
|
|
-
posted by
someone claiming to be Ronjon
on
Thu Mar 27 09:39 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
|
|
The car is a champ using drive position 3 (say D3) around city (under 50 to 55 mph).
My ’93 850 GLT has low horse power and it is heavy. I want quick acceleration without down shifting. D3 provides that. Less down shift will prolong transmission life. Moreover, in D3, the 1st to 2nd shift point moves up, reducing transmission wear and tear at low mph. Lastly D3 position gives experience that is in a manual gear shifting (my first choice would be a manual transmission car).
Considering transmission dies before the engine, I do not mind 500 or 600 higher engine rpm and a few extra dollar at the gas pump.
I plan to drive this way with a tank of gas and see it there is significant cost issue.
Ronjon
|
|
-
|
|
|
Not to be sarcastic, but do you have actual fact that less downshifting will prolong life? I mean the transmission was designed to shift, not stay in one gear all day. Did you get this information from the manufacturer? I would be interested to hear what they have to say on this subject. And secondly, have you actually tested to see how many miles you could get on a tranny doing what you do versus using it like most other people do?
I am not trying to knock you, but this is the first that I have ever heard of anyone doing what you do with an automatic transmission.
Regards,
Rick in Denver
|
|
-
posted by
someone claiming to be Ronjon
on
Fri Mar 28 07:45 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
|
|
I like saving resources and sometimes take it to the extreme. That is why you do not hear many people talk about this type of odd issues.
Talking about transmission, it is a simple wear and tear concern. More the shifts more the wear. My last car went, with original automatic transmission, over 190k miles. I bought it at 125k and the previous owners did not take care of it. I started replacing the fluid every 7k miles and drove such that it does not shift much. Currently its 3rd to 4th shift is going. How many manufacturer will tell you to change transmission fluid every 20k miles let alone 7k miles?
On my 850, I notice a good difference, maybe unnoticeable to many, after replacing fluid at 20k miles. I plan to move the interval to 10k or 15k.
Manufacturers care for reputation but also sets the standards for durability. Why do things stars falling apart right after the warranty expires? How many car manuals say that it is a good idea to warm up the car after admitting, in the manual, that the engine runs best at its operating temperature (VW Passat 2002 owner’s manual)? I do not think this ‘best’ is only about efficiency but also about durability. And the list goes on....
Ronjon
|
|
-
posted by
someone claiming to be frederick
on
Tue Mar 25 17:40 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
|
|
Folks-
I have driven our 96 base 855 auto up and down the hills of SF in Sport mode for 2 1/2 years and it works just fine for me. I doubt a turbo would ever wind itself up before the next light around here. My neighborhood is full of GLT's but lots of old 240s too.
I wondered a lot about a turbo back in the days we lived in LA but up here....who the hell cares. U don't even want to be on the road on Sundays around here when all the geriatrics and weekend drivers hit the road.
We get on the highway in the 855 and it flies just fine. Personally I would not consider a turbo unless it were the "R".
My 2 cents.
Peace,
F.
|
|
-
posted by
someone claiming to be Burgundy_850
on
Mon Mar 24 08:41 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
|
|
shouldn't do much other than lower your gas mileage.
|
|
-
|
|
|
This is how I drive now. I only shift to D whenever I get on to highway. Otherwise, I drive with 3. I haven't seen any change in mileage.
I drive this way, hopefully, to extend the life of PNP switch by moving the grease inside the PNP switch more often.
Ching-Ho Cheng
--
1995 855 NA, Bilstein Shocks, K&N Filter, E-Code Lens
|
|
-
posted by
someone claiming to be Ronjon
on
Mon Mar 24 08:48 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
|
|
Hi Ho,
How many miles have you been driving that way?
Ronjon
|
|
-
|
|
|
I have been driving like this since last summer/fall time frame. It was about 30k miles. My car now has 103K+ miles and I got my 100k mile badge from Volvo. As long as the speed is below 45 mph, it should be fine driving in 3. Otherwise, I would shift to D.
Ching-Ho Cheng
--
1995 855 NA, Bilstein Shocks, K&N Filter, E-Code Lens
|
|
-
|
|
|
Sorry if this isn't the most brilliant question ever asked, but should you only do this with a manual transmission, or is it okay to drive in 3rd with an automatic?
Chari
'98 S70 T5
--
S70 T5
|
|
-
posted by
someone claiming to be Ronjon
on
Tue Mar 25 07:08 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
|
|
I have an automatice and that is why I wanted to use gear position 3 when driving around the city. In an automatic, this should prolonged the transmission life.
Ronjon
|
|
-
|
|
|
If you never go above 45 mph, it should be fine.
Ching-Ho Cheng
--
1995 855 NA, Bilstein Shocks, K&N Filter, E-Code Lens
|
|
-
|
|
|
Ronjon,
Sorry to jump in, but I thought I would let you know I have nearly 90,000 miles on mine driving exactly the same way. It's great for keeping the xmission from jumping between gears, which is annoying and can't be good for the xmission.
Regards,
Mike Harris in Sedona
|
|
-
posted by
someone claiming to be Ronjon
on
Tue Mar 25 03:35 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
|
|
Thanks for the info Ching-Ho and Mike. I wish I did this when I got the car, three yars ago. However, better late than never.
Ching-Ho mentioned not to use 3rd if mph is above 45. I agree, but sometimes you can't help going at 50/55 (4k rpm for 5 or 10 minutes) for few miles on 3rd. What would be an high engine RPM that I should avoid?
Ronjon
|
|
-
|
|
|
Ronjon,
I assumed that you have set the tranny to Sport mode already. Car should stay in low gears for a much longer time (higher rpm, e.g. 4k or above) when you are doing hard acceleration. I never try to go above 4k rpm with the Sport mode set. Mine car just like yours, NA, non-turbo. You should have gotten a turbo version 850 3 years ago, agree ??
Ching-Ho Cheng
--
1995 855 NA, Bilstein Shocks, K&N Filter, E-Code Lens
|
|
-
posted by
someone claiming to be Ronjon
on
Tue Mar 25 07:04 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
|
|
Hi Ching-Ho,
Sports/Economy mode button light goes off when I use gear position 3.
If I knew that '93 170 HP (your '95 non-turbo should have better HP) does not have good performance I would have paid the extra cash (about $6K more). However, I was impatient.
Ronjon
|
|
-
|
|
|
My 95 non-turbo has the same engine as yours. The max output is 168HP @ 5xxx rpm. Volvo switched to Light-pressure turbo of 190 HP in 97 (GLT model).
Ching-Ho Cheng
--
1995 855 NA, Bilstein Shocks, K&N Filter, E-Code Lens
|
|
-
posted by
someone claiming to be Ronjon
on
Tue Mar 25 08:46 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
|
|
Have you seen much difference using the shock (ride) and filter (power)? What type of cost is involved and how easy is it? I did not see the instruction on Bay 13 to replace the shocks.
Ronjon
|
|
-
|
|
|
Ronjon,
I didn't feel too much difference with the K&N filter. It could be that my car is non-turbo therefore, there is no noticable difference during acceleration.
The Bilstein shocks did give more stiffer ride over rough road. I like it. I am planning to change out the front strut in the spring/summer time. I had order all the new nuts/bolts/strut mount for the new strut. I will order the Bilstein struts later from IPD. Bay13 does have the instruction to replace the rear shocks. It is under the Modification page.
Ching-Ho Cheng
--
1995 855 NA, Bilstein Shocks, K&N Filter, E-Code Lens
|
|
-
posted by
someone claiming to be Ronjon
on
Wed Mar 26 06:33 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
|
|
Thanks Ching-Ho.
Ronjon
|
|
-
|
|
|
As some will probably mention, the K&N filter dosen't add horsepower, don't be fooled into thinking this. When I bought the car I put a new OEM paper filter in and it runs great, I've heard mixed results about K&N, dont mistake louder intake noise for more power.
-----
And again, from what I've heard on the board, most people love their Bilsteins, the ride is stiffer than stock, so if you want comfort over sportiness (which from your previous messages i can tell you probably dont) than you'd probably want to go with OEM Boge shocks/struts. In order of decreasing stiffness: Bilstein HD, Koni, Bilstein Touring, Boge Turbo Gas, and Boge Shocks/Struts (OEM for '93 GLT).
-----
My '93 850, has the same specs (168hp@6300 rpm, 162.3 ft/lbs torque @3300rpm). You'll never reach even 168hp with an automatic, fully floored off a light the sport mode will shift at about 5600rpm, so like maybe 158hp we're probably looking . Either way, I love my 850, I drive in D, have a OEM paper filter, and OEM shocks/struts.
--
Matt in MA, '93 850 GLT, matto815@aol.com
|
|
-
posted by
someone claiming to be Ronjon
on
Wed Mar 26 00:36 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
|
|
Thanks Matt.
Ronjon
|
|
|
|
|
