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'97 850, 170K miles, owned since almost new. Has been running fine. Suddenly today car sputtered, lost power and stalled. Took a few tries to get it started. It sputtered a few seconds and then it drove ok for the remaining few blocks to work.
Not saying it was running rich but when it was sputtering it was like the "lawn mower syndrome" when engine is run cold just for a few seconds and then gets flooded. Maybe that is just describing "sputtering", just trying to give a feel for what it was like.
No CEL.
Car history: have not had to do hardly anything other than maintenance on the car ever. Replaced plugs (year ago), distributor cap and I think wires a few years ago, O2 sensor at 50K. Fuel filter probably but cannot remember when.
FWIW the secondary air pump was replaced about 10 years ago and I think has died again although it's not turning on the CEL any longer (it was about a year ago but went away). Unless I've forgotten something everything else on the car is original.
Thoughts on how to diagnose?
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Replace all vac lines. all short vac elbows and that one special vac line directly under the intake manifold near the power steering pump.
I had similar issues. Replaced just about everything.
Throttle position sensor, cam position sensor, crank position sensor, coil and power stage (I think this fixed the no start issue) all vac lines.
cleaned throttle body, MAF sensor.
turned out that one special vac line near the power steering pump was also disconnected.
Also, one big thing you and everyone with older Volvos should do is to disconnect the battery, remove the air filter system and clean with contact cleaner and brushes, each and every connector and contact on the engine wiring harness.
I had a serious misfire that no one could find and fix. Damaged one valve, causing me to rebuild my engine and misfire came back. It was the electrical contacts that were seriously corroded. A proper three hours of cleaning each and every connector, fixed the problem.
hope this helps.
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Everything is original... So the PCV was never cleaned? The vacuum lines never replaced? It sounds like the engine is over rich when warm and the plugs finally just fouls so bad that it dies.
You could also have a bad fuel pressure regulator or a dying coil resulting in a weak spark.
First, check the vacuum elbows. Including the ones going to the SAS and the hard to see line under cyl #1 intake.
It gets cold here, but at least I open the garage door enough to have a free blowing exhaust.
--
My name is Klaus and I am a V♂lv♂holic
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This was not a gradual loss of performance like lack of maintenance. It was a sudden change.
Car runs file most of the time (99% of the time). It stumbles for a few seconds and then goes back to fine. If the stumbling happens while stopped the car can stall and can then take a few tries to restart. Then it runs fine.
No check engine light.
Seems like it is not rich all the time but that something is flaky and car is rich and sputtering until the flaky thing goes back to normal.
Will look at hoses. Does not have a flame trap (right? '97?) but will look at the rest of the PCV arrangement and vacuum hoses.
If fuel pump, pressure regulator, relay and any other fuel pump-related stuff were flaky would they make the car rich? Same on vacuum hoses. Would think vacuum leak would make it lean but maybe using O2 sensor feedback the car overcompensates.
Had not thought of the coil. Might account for no CEL; am guessing the computer cannot tell if the coil is working like it can with sensors and electronics. Is there a coil test or just replace it? Is intermittent failure a typical coil failure scenario?
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Turbos do not have a flame trap.
If your idle control motor is dirty, that may be a problem. Same for a dirty butterfly in the throttle body.
You will have to search for coil checking.
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My name is Klaus and I am a V♂lv♂holic
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Main fuel pump relay kicking out?
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look at your plugs. they tell a lot
check your fuel pump.
Bill
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Recap: 850, intermittent sputtering, no CEL.
Suggestions: fuel pump, fuel pump relay, fuel pressure regulator, mass airflow meter. Also check plugs for more information.
I got and used MAF cleaner thinking it was cheap and easy and couldn't hurt. Did not help but no harm done.
Car still sputtering more today, maybe getting worse. Pulled the plugs and found them to be sooty black: all 5.
After replacing plugs I started the car just to be sure it worked. Car was warm already and it ran maybe 10 seconds. About to wrap up and noticed a big black soot circle on the garage door, straight shot from exhaust!
Picture of splat https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-CbLHzBIxV9T3N3cjYxbUpoODA/edit?usp=docslist_api
So I'd say it is running pretty rich. What does this point to?
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posted by
someone claiming to be dg
on
Mon Mar 16 11:35 CST 2015 [ RELATED]
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MAF cleaner is a great item to keep in the garage and is great for cleaning all electrical contacts and the throttle body. I no longer use regular throttle body cleaner as it's too close to the MAF and not good for it. I saw this tip on a you tube video. You might want to clean your MAF plug, O2 plug, and the Coolant temp. plug. Mine was corroded and completely oxidized.
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posted by
someone claiming to be dg
on
Tue Mar 10 17:43 CST 2015 [ RELATED]
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your CEL light could be burned out. Have autozone check for codes anyway.
Just because you clean the MAF doesn't mean it's ok. It could still be bad. My guess is that it's some combination of MAF and o2 sensor causing the rich state......
not all faults trigger the CEL
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Good call on CEL not working! It does not. I got a code reader and iPad app to read codes (app does other stuff; Dash Command FWIW).
Now I can read codes but only one is for secondary air injection P0410.
So with no hard evidence and nothing to go on other than running rich and intermittent stumbling both at speed (sputters for a few seconds then keeps going) and at idle it feels like what is left is replacing parts until it starts working. Start with MAF and O2 sensors or coil, cap, rotor and wires? Feeling like the idle stuff is less likely since symptoms occur at any speed but I don't have experience here; just guessing.
Might let the app record while I drive and see if it catches anything.
Appreciate all the suggestions. Will have an answer someday!
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Problem solved!
Recap: 850, 170k, owned since practically new, almost everything original.
Ran fine for forever, then sudden onset of intermittent loss of power/sputtering. Poor running lasting several seconds then back to normal. Would stall if at idle but restart after a few tries. If at speed just lost power then came back.
Pulled (almost new) plugs: black soot on all of them. Also noted soot blasting out of tailpipe when I started the car.
No CEL (later found to be burned out). Got code reader; no codes other than secondary air pump.
Lots of good suggestions: fuel pump, fuel pump relay, fuel pressure regulator, fuel filter, MAF sensor, O2 sensor, cap/rotor/wires/coil, idle-related stuff, vacuum leak, probably a few I am missing. All good suggestions. Unable to prove any.
Used OBD app on iPad and watched signals as it drove good/bad. Nothing I could see different. Dang! The car is stingy with the clues.
Checked for and found no vac leaks.
Time to start replacing parts. Since it seemed the computer could not tell anything was wrong I started with the coil instead of sensors. Lucky guess! Running fine with a new coil.
Lots of good help. Will follow up on maintenance items to head off future problems.
Thanks to all,
Terry
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The best way to deal with a SAS p0410 is to eliminate SAS:
http://volvospeed.com/vs_forum/topic/140772-sas-air-pump-deletewrite-up-with-pics/
While there are 19 pages, two important items are there. One is to add a diode to the computer and the other to unplug the blue wire to the SAS pump.
I did this to my 1996, then removed the pump and all the lines. Made a huge difference to getting to the throttle body by removing the air lines and vacuum lines dedicated to the SAS. I left the purge valve behind the engine and just plugged the hole.
It takes a least 1 hour to do the SAS delete, several more to eliminate the pump and lines. I hooked the pump relay to the metal shelf behind the left headlight.
--
My name is Klaus and I am a V♂lv♂holic
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posted by
someone claiming to be dg
on
Tue Mar 10 18:10 CST 2015 [ RELATED]
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I'm replacing the coil at the end of the month to see if its why i'm getting a 144 code.....my engine was / is running rich as well.
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posted by
someone claiming to be dg
on
Tue Mar 10 17:43 CST 2015 [ RELATED]
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your CEL light could be burned out. Have autozone check for codes anyway.
Just because you clean the MAF doesn't mean it's ok. It could still be bad. My guess is that it's some combination of MAF and o2 sensor causing the rich state......
not all faults trigger the CEL
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WHAT ARE YOU DOING RUNNING YOUR CAR WITH THE GARAGE DOOR CLOSED?
That's how to commit suicide!
Did you put the old plugs back in, or replace with new plugs?
It sounds like time for a complete tune-up starting with a compression test.
Bill
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posted by
someone claiming to be dg
on
Fri Mar 6 09:30 CST 2015 [ RELATED]
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mass air meter......my car did this when it was failing.....FCP has bosch for around 100.00. you can try cleaning it to with mass air meter cleaner.
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Besides the fuel pump, check the fuel pressure regulator.
I had a very strange problem with the 93 when I apply the accelerator to go fast the car slow down just the opposite. I had to remove my foot from the accelerator in order for the car to start picking up speed.
Very crazy and strange!
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