Hello All,

I have a 1996 850 GLT wagon (5 speed manual) with almost 280,000 miles. I have been advised by my mechanic, who I trust and is competent, that it may be in my best interest to consider purchasing a Factory Short Block.

Did Volvo ever sell a Factory Short Block? If so, does anyone know the part # and the approximate retail cost?

If Volvo did not sell a Factory Short Block, can anyone recommend a reliable source for one and what should I expect to pay?

Thanks to all who reply.

Hugh

Hi Hugh,

I read most of the responses in this thread and agree with others that the problem could be in the fuel and/or ignition systems. If the engine starts and runs fine when the ambient temperature is above freezing, then the engine rings and valves are probably not the problem.

The failure to start seems similar to "lawn mower syndrome". This is a known issue with the 5 cylinder engines when they are started in cool weather and run for only a few seconds (just long enough to move the car a few feet so a lawn mower can be removed from the garage). The cylinder walls get flooded with gasoline and dilute the oil that normally seals the rings. Next time a start is attempted, the compression is so low that the engine wont start. This happened once to me on my 1998 V70. The only fix is to crank the engine long enough for more oil to coat the cylinders so compression returns. If you search the forums for lawn mower syndrome or LMS you can find out more.

In your case I would suspect that something is not right with the fuel mixture or ignition under low temperature conditions. The temperature has to be very low for the problem to occur, and who wants to diagnose a problem when the surrounding air temperature is 10 degrees ?

Does GLT mean a turbo engine ? If so, is the compression ratio on turbos lower than on NA engines ?

If the fuel mixture is too rich under during extreme cold then the cylinder walls may be flooded as described for lawn mower syndrome, causing the compression to be too low. If the fuel mixture is too lean then the fuel-air mix might not ignite in the cold condition even if the compression is OK.

A compression test could help diagnose the problem, but the test should be performed when the engine and surrounding air is well below freezing and the engine failed to immediately start.

What is the condition of the PCV / crankcase breather system ? Was it checked and replaced when the head was off ? Cracked or clogged PCV hoses could contribute to the problem. Most of the PCV stuff is under the intake manifold and difficult to see.

Mike

Mike,

I forgot to answer one of your questions regarding “GLT”. My car is not a turbo. It has a naturally aspirated engine. GLT was a trim level for my car in 1996. If I recall correctly I think there was the base level model, the GLT trim level and then I think the Platinum trim level.

Hugh

Mike,

From your lips to God’s ears, I hope the problem I am experiencing is not due to valves or rings. The suggestion to see if the engine is being flooded with gas and in turn reducing the compression is one I will have checked put per your advice.

My only thought (to be the Devil’s advocate) was I’m pretty sure on all the occasions (3 that I experienced this problem) I had driven the car for several miles or longer and then parked it for the night. The next morning, after the car had sat for and excess of 8 hours (sometimes it sat for 2 days in low temperatures - below 10 degrees). So I don’t know if I created a situation to trigger the “Lawn Mower Syndrome”. However, I will not rule it out and will bring it to the attention of my mechanic per your suggestion.

Thank you for taking the time to consider my problem and offer your advice. Your advice and help and that of the other Volvo owner who frequent this site is probably the reason I’ll never leave the Volvo brand. Thanks.

Hugh

FYI, I have an extra '96 850 engine, from a manual transmission wagon, sitting in my garage.

It had about 90,000 miles on it when it suffered a ring failure. I usually work on my own cars but did not have the time or space to deal with the car at the time, so I had a local shop work on the engine. They replaced all the pistons and rings and various other things. Put the engine back in and about three months later it suffered from burned values. They had replaced the O2 sensors at the time of the rebuild and there was an erroneous listing for O2 sensors in the Bosh catalog for '96 manual transmissioned cars--so one of the sensors placed in the car was the incorrect sensor. A long-distance trip made short work of several of the valves. By then I had decided to take things into my own hands and purchased an engine from a boneyard and replaced my original engine myself.

The original, "rebuilt" engine has sat in my garage ever since. Except for the valves, I think it is perfectly usable shape.

If you are interested, let me know.

Ken

Ken,

Thank you. I may indeed be interested. My e-mail address is: hugh.donnelly@snet.net

Shoot me an e-mail, with the location of the engine and what you would like to sell if for. I’m still examining my options, so I may not jump upon your offer immediately. But that is not through indifference. Thanks to you, I have another option to try to restore my car.

Hugh

My couple of cents worth of opinion is do as originally suggested and complete the compression test.

This will tell you whether it is rings (doubtful) or valves (more likely) or headgasket (just as likely). These engines do burn a valve here or there. If valve/head gasket related, pull head, grind valves, put back on, go for however long she goes for. 280,000 miles is great and you got your $$$ worth, 500,000 sounds like a stretch to me, but what do I know. In my opinion, your mechanic does not seem that interested in this activity.

I would not do anything, until I had more info from compression test.

This is not reason she won't fire in the -10 F weather, probably fires fine in 15 F. Many suggests already on what to look for here.

Just my couple of cents worth of thought, use as deemed best for you.

Mike

Mike,

Thank you for your comments. I will share them with my mechanic. In some ways, I’m in “Virgin territory”. At this point in time, my mechanic probably hasn’t seen too many 19 year old 850’s with 285,000 miles on the clock to serve as a bench mark as to what to expect. I hope you are right that all that has to be fixed is the head. I did have the head gasket replaced at 250,000 because oil was starting to leak out and drain down the side of the engine block.

Mike again, thank you for sharing your advice and opinions. I want to properly fix my car if I can, but at the same tine be realistic about the cost benefit analysis.

Hugh

I'm not sure you need a new engine.

The compression isn't exactly even, but it isn't bad for a motor with 280,000 miles on it. If the engine runs good once warmed up, it is probably fine. One cylinder with 160 psi is not keeping the motor from starting when it is cold.

As far as not starting right away after sitting for a few days is another matter.

How cold was it when it was slow to start ? 0F ? The sensors that help the engine control system decide how much fuel to provide, and when, are 20 years old. Are they still in spec ? When it is -15F my '87 245 thinks that it is -40 below and floods the engine.

Other things to look at - How old is the battery ? Batteries get a lot smaller as they age and when the temperature drops. Does the battery have a weak cell ? When was the last time the car was tuned up and the air flow sensor cleaned ? Did your fuel pressure take while to come up after sitting ? Etc.

Your mechanic may be trustworthy and competent, but may not be familiar with how long Volvo engines last. Not to mention that he may not be exactly up to speed on how to troubleshoot an engine control system that was built when he was in high school...

Greg

Greg,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. It is helpful to me in the decision I have to make. Some answers to the points you raised. The psi ratings of the 5 cylinders were:190, 185, 180, 175, and 160. I don’t know what is consider “excellent”, “good”, “fair” or “poor” with regard to psi. From the information listed, two cylinders have significantly less psi than the others.

My mechanic checked out the battery and it was good. Last night I had the problem again in starting the car. I had driven the car earlier in the day and then parked it outside to catch a train to NYC. The car sat for just over 8 hours before I returned to start it. At that time the ambient temperature was 7 degrees. It took several cranks of the engine before it was not only start, but continue to run. Before the occurred the engine was start, but then stall within a second or two. It seemed as it had on other occasions the engine wasn’t receiving enough spark or gas. Finally after the 4 or 5 cranking of the engine, the engine started and I was able to coax it to run by depressing the gas pedal and keeping the RPMs just under 2,000. I let the car “idle” that way for approximately 5 minutes. If I had taken my foot off the gas, the engine would have stalled. After 5 minutes (the engine still had not reached operating temperature, per the temperature gauge), I could take my foot off the gas and the engine idled at approximately 800 rpm. I then drove the car home without incident. The engine ran fine.

This morning, my car had been parked in the garage. Before I started the engine, I put the key in the “accessories” mode which reveal the ambient temperature in the garage was 33 degrees versus the 7 degrees the night before. I turned the key and the engine started immediately and idled smoothly. So sever cold is definitely a factor in the problem I face.

With regard to my mechanics familiarity with the engine control system on this car, he, like myself, probably wishes he was in high school when my 850 was sold new. Instead, he was in his late 30’s and had been working in a Volvo Dealer of Excellence franchise for many years, and was well versed and experienced on the 850 model. He knows the 850 cold and in fact other repair garages often contact him for advice when they have such a model in for repairs. However you have raised issues that I will share with my mechanic. I’m still hoping based upon the response I’ve received that perhaps I just have to have the head rebuilt and not the entire engine. I can only hope. This is a manual transmission car, so I would really like to hold onto it if I can. I really enjoy driving this car. I always took of this car with the expectation I would drive it for years, and maybe, just maybe, hit the 500,000 mark with it.

Hugh

Hi Hugh,

Seven degrees is not that cold for a car. My '87 starts reliably down to -25F and Mary's '04 V70 is the same. I see lots of 850s running around when the high temp is zero. Having said that your car is definately sensitive to low temperatures.

Now that it is warming up you may have to buy your mechanic a can of spray cold (search for 'spray cold electronics') and have him check the fuel injection temperature sensor, fuel pressure regulator, and some of the other electronic components. I'm sure it will turn out to be a simple but hard to find problem.

Greg

Greg,

Thank you for your advice and suggestions. I have shared the advice I have received on this site with my mechanic. I will also share your suggestion. I think the problem with my car having difficulty starting in the extreme cold (at least for my area) may have several causes all coming together at once. Low psi has been detected in several cylinders which does not help. My hope is, that further testing of the cylinders will reveal that valves and not rings are failing. However your comment about the fuel injection temperature sensor may be valid. In the nearly 20 years I have owned this car, not matter how cold it was outside, this car always started on the first turn of the key. Twice on two different days when it was cold and the car had sat outside for over a day it would not start immediately.

Again thank you for sharing your advice. I take some comfort in that you are still driving a 1987 Volvo. My is ’96 and would love to be able to drive it for another 10 years. It’s a manual, and I really enjoy driving this car.

Hugh

I am also going to recommend checking the fuel pressure regulator.

For your information, you are not alone on this one, I am in the same boat. Other than the forums, I haven't gotten a straight answer from any shop or dealer. In the cold, I was experiencing rough running, enough that the whole engine bay would rattle from a bad engine mount. With it being 25 degrees warmer today, this problem is non existent. I also had a loss of power from a start. I checked everything, had it scanned by the dealer; there were no codes and they saw nothing wrong. They said "compression is low, probably bad rings blow by." I knew this wasn't true, because I always used the best oil and allowed time for it the warm up properly.

Checked the compression: 185 psi on all the cylinders. The ignition components have all been replaced. The last thing to check is the fuel system. Fuel filter has been replaced, coolant temp sensor replaced, and I know fuel pump is not bad, since it starts right up. Only thing to do next was to check fuel pressure. Near impossible without removing the TB, couldn't attach a fuel pressure gauge. I have given up... The factory fuel pressure regulator is also NLA.

I am not trying to discourage you, but I would start there. It is almost guaranteed that you have low fuel pressure. It should be at 60 psi.

At this point, I am about to hit 200,000 miles. It is a 1998 V70 R AWD. I have done too much work on this car, and there is always another problem. It's only worth $1800 trade in. At this point, I have decided to buy something new and not Volvo. The old Volvos are great - RWD - less complicated, but the newer ones are overpriced. As soon as the snow stops, I will be purchasing a 2015 VW GTI with 6 speed manual. I am happy!
--
1959 Volvo Amazon 121, 1998 Volvo V70R AWD

Lukeball,

Thank you for your additional comments and advice. My ’96 850 may be worth $1,500 or less. I will probably spend more in getting this car repaired than its value. My justification is that it is still cheaper than going out and buying a new Volvo. Your comment “I have done too much work on this car” resonates with me. I own 3 Volvo wagons: two ’96 850 GLT wagons (both manuals) and a ’99 XC. Over the years, I often feel “I have done too much work on these cars.” I once read a comment by a fellow 850 owner on this column, who described Volvo 850s (and I this this comment may apply to all Volvos) as “maintenance hogs”. You must maintain them if you want them to last. But sometimes it can be overwhelming. I like my Volvos and forgive a lot because of the inherent safety they provide. This safety have been demonstrated to me on each Volvo I’ve listed when it was involved in a serious accident.

But you are right, it always seems that I am fixing something on these cars. I’m fortunate, my private mechanic is honest and competent which goes along way in being able to afford to hang onto these cars. Yet, just today on my ’99 XC, my mechanic has told me that cylinder #3 has no compression. The car only has 160,000 miles. Since day one I have only used synthetic oil and have changed the oil every 5,000 miles. My mechanic suspects it is the one if not both of the exhaust valves in cylinder #3. He won’t know for sure until he takes it apart and checks all the valves. I’m very disappointed this has happened. My mechanic said he has seen this on other XCs and believes the valves themselves are defective. Again, I really like the Volvo brand, but they sometimes seem to demand so much in terms of repairs. Over the years I have often read on this forum how long time Volvo owners have “thrown in the towel” and left the brand because of excessive repairs. I’m not there yet, but I can understand those who have reached that point.

On a lighter note, thank you for your advice.

Hugh

Just for laughs you might checkout this sight for a used engine near you:

http://www.car-part.com/

You don't say which engine you have, but it might be you could locate a low mileage (under 150,000 Ha!) unit not too far from you. Looks like they sell them for about $400-up.

Chris,

I think my private garage called this source. My car has 285,000 miles. The salvage yard had an engine with 200,000 miles for sale! Ideally, an engine with 50,000 might be worth the risk/expense. I suspect trying to find a good used engine to justify the $3,000 cost in labor to install may not exist.

It pains me, that this problem may spell the death of my car. It’s a stick and trying to find another manual transmission 850 wagon in the GLT will be next to impossible. It kills me because I have always taken very good care of this car.

Thank you for referring me to this source.

Hugh

Chris,

Thank you for this information. My car has 285,000 miles. My garage called a salvage yard, and it offered to sell me a used engine with only 200,000 miles on it.

I think my chances of finding a low mileage engine (50,000) that hasn’t been sitting around unused for years is pretty slim. If I hold onto this car, which I want to do, I will probably be forced to have the engine rebuilt.

Thanks,

Hugh

http://www.myswedishparts.com/parts/1994/Volvo/850/GLT/?siteid=213784&vehicleid=379914§ion=ENGINE&group=ENGINE

couple grand and she's all yours.

DG,

Thanks and thanks to everyone else who has responded. This information is helpful. I’m trying to confirm absolutely that the rings are worn and that perhaps I could fix this problem by getting the head rebuilt versus the entire engine. If the engine has to be rebuilt, finding a reliable, used engine might be the way to go. The information you have provided gives me a resource to call upon. Thank you.

Hugh

What? Did a rod fail and punch a hole in the block?

You don't want to buy a new block when you can have a very good one from the local junk yards for a few hundred dollars which includes the head.

Removing the head and inspecting the piston walls, folks have seen the original boring marks on the walls even after 200K miles = no wear. These blocks are not like the American engines, Volvo makes them to last.
--
My name is Klaus and I am a V♂lv♂holic

Klaus,

The story is I noticed recently on really cold days when the car sat not driven for 2 days, that when I went to start it, the engine would not start right away. It took multiple turns of the key. It seemed as though the engine wasn’t getting enough spark or fuel. The fuel pump had recently been replaced (it had burned out) so that wasn’t the problem.

The car has as I said almost 280,000 miles. My mechanic checked the compression of each cylinder: 190, 185, 180, 175, 160 psi. This reduction in compression may be due to rings or valves. In my area we have been experiencing severe cold for days. The cold combined with the low pressure in some of the cylinders was keeping the car from starting right away. He said I won’t have this problem during the summer, fall and spring - only the winter. I could also continue to drive this car like this for years.

It turns out Volvo never sold a short block, only a long block which it has discontinued. In addition a phone call to Erie Volvo indicated no 850 engines. They haven’t had any for a while. It may prove difficult to find a decent used 850 engine because of the passage of time (especially one with 50,000 miles on it). Even if the mileage is low, the engine may have been sitting for years. My Swedish Parts, as recommended by dg below did have a long block for $5,999 plus $250 for s/h. Even if I go for a rebuild of the engine, between labor ($3,000) parts and machine shop services, the cost will be about $5,000. For a nearly 20 year old car, with a manual, that I like dearly, it just doesn’t seem to make sense.

I love my 850, but it appears my only option now, may be to just continue to drive it until the engine fails. I really thought I would 500,000 with this car.

Klaus if you or any one else has any suggestions, I’m all ears.

Hugh

While 160psi is poor, the mechanic should at least have wet tested the cylinders. One pours a a table spoon of oil in the spark plug hole, wait a couple of minutes, and tests the compression again. If the compression goes up markedly, the rings are worn. All compression tests must be done with a 'warm' engine, as oil will seep down from the rings and allow for lower compression readings.

In your case, it probably isn't the rings. It is a a worn valve or two. Reconditioning a head is a much cheaper option and the engine does not have to removed from the car.

But, for hard starting when cold, I would look at other things. A failing coolant temp sensor, a large vacuum leak, a tired coil delivering less spark, and the list goes on.

--
My name is Klaus and I am a V♂lv♂holic

Klaus,

Thank you. I’ll share your comments with my mechanic. My mechanic tells me that he thinks the poor compression is due equally to valves and rings.

Volvo still sells pistons, but doesn’t sell rings anymore (they were sold in a kit). I’ll post a separate query for this, but do you know of any aftermarket source that sell rings for Volvo 850s (non-turbo)? Preferably a package where pistons and rings are sold together. By the way, I haven’t “sold myself” on a rebid. If I can restore my car’s engine with a rebuilt head, that’s the way I’ll go. Also, I found out that “MySwedishParts.com” does not have a Volvo long block to sell. The clerk I spoke to was mistaken. He confirmed that Volvo at one time did sell a long block, but discontinued them and they are no longer available.

Klaus you said pressure of 160 psi was considered poor. What are the psi readings that are considered: excellent, good, fair, weak, bad? Again my car has readings of: 190, 185, 180, 175, 160 psi.

This kills me, because I have changed the oil with a Mann oil filer every 5,000 miles since the car was new, and I still got this problem.

Klaus the car has 285,000 miles. Any idea how long this engine will last, assuming it isn’t rebuilt before it fails?

Also Lars, do you know any reputable source that sell a complete kit to rebuilt this engine: pistons, rings, gaskets, etc?

Thanks for your reply.

Hugh

I will make this short and I am no pro,but a compression test does say something. However, if you always did oil changes with good oil and the car didn't sit for a while, I wouldn't think the rings would go bad. Does the engine burn or lose oil quickly?

Also, I would think that you could swap in any engine up until 1998. Nothing much changes. You can look into a rebuilt head. I have found completely rebuilt heads for around $500.

Here is a link to Volvo pistons and rings: http://www.cvi-automotive.se/en/articles/16347/4-pistons-rings

Once the engine is started from cold, no well does it run? Have you noticed other issues when driving? It might not be engine mechanical related. I would check everything else. The coolant temp sensor makes a difference: helps to richen the cold start mixture. I would definitely check the ignition system.
--
1959 Volvo Amazon 121, 1998 Volvo V70R AWD

Lukeball,

Thank you for your response and the information you provided. To answer your questions

1) Once the engine warms up, it runs great. The engine does not burn oil (no excessive consumption). Nor do I see oil smoke in the exhaust.

2) The car runs great around town and on the highway. The idle is smooth. Till I had the compression checked, I had no idea the compression was down to a 160 psi in one of the cylinders. There are no symptoms that the engine is not running properly.

3) On the days the car would not start (2 occasions) the car had sat outside for a day to two days, with the temperature on one day at 7 degrees and on another day at 10 degrees.

3) The oil and filter have been since new changed every 5,000 miles with a good grade of oil and only Mann oil filters.

4) The engine is tuned up every 30,000 miles with either Volvo parts, or OEM parts.

5) The car has 285,00 miles on it. At approximately 250,000 miles the head gasket was replaced. This was due to engine oil starting to leak out on the side of the engine. The head was sent out to a machine shop and was cut so it would lay flat on the block. Incidentally, when the head gasket was replaced, the car ran fine, it was just the presence of the oil leak that caused the gasket to be replaced.


Hugh