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1998 C70 Hardtop, 220k miles
Had some significant coolant loss from a bad seam on the side-tank radiator.
Replaced with a new Nissen's unit. Installed new top hose. Took me 4 hot sweaty hours to replace. No leaks, refilled with approx 1 3/4 gallons of dexcool/distilled h20.
All seemed well on Monday.
Tuesday, it blew the intercooler hose off on the interstate. Car began to run very badly. fixed with a new clamp... which I actually tightened this time :\
Wednesday (very hot here) the AC began to work poorly coolant began to boil out of the expansion tank cap. Low coolant light came on. Coolant boiled out at home, and again when picking up kids from school... and again that evening. Replaced the green cap expansion tank with another spare green cap.
Thursday *much* cooler. I topped up the expansion tank *again* in AM with distilled. Coolant smell in cabin. Slow boil from the cap after parking. I can see the hot coolant boiling in from the thermostat bypass on the housing. Little actual loss, but very concerned.
Something is wrong. Thinking it could be the thermostat, or expansion tank, or caps. Went ahead an ordered $150 worth of new parts (Thermostat, OEM expansion tank, hoses, sensor, etc) from FCP Euro.
My working theory is that the new radiator is putting OEM pressures on the rest of the 220k-old system. Thinking it's the thermostat, but really unsure what's going on here. One minute the expansion tank is empty, the next hot coolant rushes back in and it fills to the brim before overflowing.
Any ideas what's happening here?
Could my water pump be an issue? I'm tracking odd noises from the accessory belt area - thinking it could be the power steering pump... high miles car, figure it could be a lot of things...
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Today I replaced the lower (and longer) radiator hose, in addition to the new top hose I put on last weekend.
I kept the top of the system open and re-filled the block and radiator from the expansion tank hose. When I began to drip coolant from the top of the radiator, I reinstalled the hoses and the the expansion tank. I filled it to the "max" line on the tank. I hope that this would have removed any air bubbles from the system.
After putting everything else back together I ran the car for a good 10 minutes until it reached normal operating temperature.
The coolant in expansion tank rose until it had almost reached the top. Notably, the cooling fan did not activate during this time, but it did run when I switched on the A/C.
When I shut down the engine, the coolant level in the expansion tank fell to about 1" below the "max" line. *maybe* air was burping out of the system, but I don't know anymore.
The coolant is in there and then it vanishes. It's not dripping under the car, It's not getting into my oil and I'm not seeing white smoke coming out of the exhaust. Maybe my head gasket is blown, but I'm not sure these symptoms match that problem.
I know I was losing it out of the cap during the week, I could see where it had sprayed under the hood and I could smell it as I drove. Idling in my carport today it wasn't as clear.
So I'm down to these possibilities.
1) Water pump is failing. No idea how to check that w/o getting into the timing belt/serpentine belt arena.
2) Partially blown head gasket. Also unsure. I'm used to seeing creamy oil, white smoke, or coolant in the oil.
There are quite a number of these problems over at MVS, but none ever report back with the solution.
This car has 220k miles and I've only put on a tiny fraction of that. Maybe things are just wearing out?
----------------BACKGROUND----------------
All of this started with the heater hose rupturing back in Feb/March during an unseasonably warm spell. The hose blew suddenly a mile or two from home. I limped it home, stopping frequently to let the engine cool and to top off the coolant. Despite all the steam and lost coolant, the temperature never went above normal. So I repeat, it did not overheat - at least according to the gauge.
I've been playing whack-a-mole ever since. After a couple weeks with new heater hoses in place, I suddenly started losing coolant rapidly. I eventually traced that to a crack in the junction block. I opted to bypass the heater core with a piece of heater hose until I had the time to replace the junction block.
During the spring, loss was quite minimal. I'd check it and top it off ever few weeks but never found much missing.
The weather turned very warm this summer. After restoring my AC system to functional, I noticed my coolant vanishing rapidly again.
Thinking it could be related, I finally replaced my heater hose junction block and removed the bypass. I found a small split in the bypass hose end.
This really didn't improve things at all. Coolant loss continued getting steadily worse.
After a couple weeks of mysterious coolant vanishing, I finally found a pool of coolant under the parked car, and traced it to the passenger side plastic side-tank radiator.
I replaced the radiator and both radiator hoses. That brings us to current. Yesterday, the temp needle went above midway and approached the red before cooling back down.
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If it was leaking into the trans via an interior radiator failure, I would think you would you know it by now, given the amount of water that it sounds like you've lost. Have you looked at the trans fluid?
Maybe the thing to do at this point is go to a radiator shop and have them pressurize the cooling system and wait (and wait and wait) to see where it's going. If it loses water and you can't figure out where, you might want to pull out the spark plugs and hand crank the engine a couple revolutions lest one of the cylinders becomes hydro locked.
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I'm getting close to breaking down and taking the car to the local independent Volvo shop. Doing that will be admitting defeat, but it's probably worth preserving my sanity.
I put the car through one additional cycle of idling to temperature. I ran it with the AC on the whole time and I saw nowhere near the heat expansion that I did when I ran it this AM. I'm not sure if I lost coolant this time. I'm still sitting about 1" below the max line, but it seems like it has less than earlier.
Last week, I was loosing fluid at approx 1/2 gallon a day... But that was distilled water, which boils much easier than 50/50 dexcool. Damn, too many variables. I'll keep monitoring.
I have been checking my tranny fluid since I replaced the radiator. It needs a full flush, but the level is holding constant.
The Law of Conservation of Mass says that my coolant can;t just vanish. It's going somewhere... I just gotta figure out where...
I spent the latter half of today rebuilding the suspension in my Wife's 940. Man.. that car is so much simpler in just about every way... except perhaps for the front struts. So much extra room under the hood, everything is accessible. Quite a stark contrast to the c70, where I have to start removing major components just to reach basic things...
Ah well.. the c70 turns heads and looks cool. 940 wagons don't do that... Maybe I should put my time and money back into my 220... people actually flag me down in an Amazon...
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I too am in the process of crossing over after I crashed my 745 a few months ago. Now driving a 2003 V70 NA and the wife's in a 2005 S80. These cars are killing the shade tree mechanic (and a few of the "pros" also).
I did the T-belt on my V70 - it actually isn't as bad as I expected, although it was an education.
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Took her our again today. Had the AC on for a while (smelled like coolant) but had to shut it down when my charge light suddenly came on. When the cooling fan was off, the coolant began boiling out violently when I finally got home.
There's no blockage and no air bubble. Thinking it's the headgasket. I've got many of the symptoms. It sounds as if it's more a more likely.
Car had a very hard time starting this AM, and another inch of coolant was lost overnight from a col engine. No puddle this AM.
I'm resigning myself to the head gasket replacement. There's a good tutorial at MVS, but it contains a lot of crazy stuff - especially with the Cams - using boards to bolt up the camshafts. I could see such a repair taking days and being very easy to screw up.
http://www.tracystruesoaps.com/tutorials/850hg/p1.html
I'm not at all encouraged by all this...
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Early-on in this thread you said it was boiling, or "bubbling", out of the resevoir yet the gauge read normal. That's why I immediately mentioned head gasket, even though I was hoping you would find something easier to remedy it.
If it ends up that you have to pull the head, I would think that you want to bring the engine up to TDC, then lock the cams in that position before disassembling. If the crank remains at TDC, yet the cams are allowed to wander very far off their marks, you could possibly ding a valve without even trying. And certainly you want to make sure the crank and cams are in the proper relationship before you drop the head back ON again or else you might be bending a valve (or worse) as you torque the head down.
Have you checked the oil level to see if the water is leaking straight from the water jacket into the oil passages? If it's not, then it's likely going into a cylinder where it then burns up and/or gets pushed out of the exaust valve when you crank it.
A compression leak-down test could be very telling at this point. You could apply pressure to each cylinder through the spark plug hole and see if it causes bubbles to escape through the coolant resevoir.
Good luck!
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I've got a compression tester, but nothing else available to try a leak-down test. I'm not quite sure I can get my tester down into the spark plug well.
I keep looking for oil in the coolant and coolant in the oil. I see none. I don't know how I could be burning that much coolant w/o seeing some white smoke. This is crazy.
The coolant loss is getting extreme. I topped off the reservoir this AM w/ 1/3 gallon. It nearly overheated when I was arriving at work (~5 miles). Poured another 1/3 gallon, and got within a few block of home when the coolant began to boil out. Parking, I was greeted with the view of the coolant boiling out.
After cooling and relieving the pressure, I added another 1/2 gallon). This is just clean distilled water, BTW.
I'll pull the plugs and check them for clean - that may be the only way I can tell what's happening w/o some more sophisticated equipment.
Is there any way the turbo could be the source of the loss?
Is there any way a bad thermostat could be contributing?
Is there any way I can keep the system from fully pressurizing?
I really need the car for a few more days. Head Gasket kit and a cam locking tool is on the way.
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When this "boiling" is going on, what does the tempo gauge read?
Once it cools enough to refill the coolant system, does the level drop over night, or only while being driven?
Idea: While the engine is cooling down, remove the coils and ground them,(so that when you crank the engine you "might" not get a missfire fault). Leave the plugs screwed in the head. Top off the coolant and leave the cap OFF. Have an assistant crank the engine over and observe the coolant expansion tank. Does the level rise and fall slightly in sync with the engine cranking, or does cranking cause bubbles to come out? Either would indicate a blown head gasket. If you could pressurize the coolant system somehow, remove the plugs and see if it fills one of the cylinders with water.
"...Is there any way the turbo could be the source of the loss?..."
That's a good thought. I guess your car has a water-cooled turbo?? If you are leaking internally into turbo, I don't know any easy tricks to determining that, other than disconnecting the exhaust and intake plumbing to see. I'm not a turbo expert, but it seems to me that if there is an internal water leak that it could be passing into EITHER the exhaust side or the intake side. Maybe someone else will read this and comment.
"...Is there any way a bad thermostat could be contributing?..."
Probably not if the temp gauge is staying in reasonable range. But how about the coolant cap? Is it known to be good?
Hang in there...
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Chris thanks for the information and advice. I'm admitting short-term defeat here and renting a car. Driving the car with this degree of loss will kill the head for sure and probably wreck my new radiator and hoses.
Got two separate head gasket kits on order from FCP and IPD. FCP is shipping *too late* (thanks to the Hurricane) and that kit won't get here in time for the long weekend. So IPD gets the benefit of my desperation, which is who should be getting it - if anyone.
So, a lot of things happening on the car. Coolant drops overnight. Coolant boils out when driving - I can see the bubbles coming through the overflow nipple on the thermostat housing. Pressure builds gradually at idle, but really starts boiling when I open the throttle.
I can limit the loss by running the AC, but eventually that gets overwhelmed and then the temp gauge starts to jump. I presume that the extra pressure from the AC boils the coolant out faster. I can get 4-5 miles like this, but things begin go bad rapidly.
Cutting out the AC will reduce the temperature temporarily (for maybe 3 blocks) and then it starts to rise. As soon as the car is shut down, it looses more coolant and then the low-coolant light comes on. Topping up the cold engine starts it all again.
In all this, I still get no white smoke or oil/coolant mixing. I'm taking that as a positive sign that my head is not wasted.
I've tried a couple different green caps. I've got a new tank, cap, and hoses arriving today, but I won't risk those until I get into the car.
Plan to pick up the remaining sockets and tools needed for the head job today, and begin disassembly this afternoon.
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Take the thermostat out of the car. Then test the cooling system. It really sounds like there is a cheap thermostat that failed in the closed position.
Turning the AC on forces the cooling fan to turn on, but then the condenser can tranfer a lot of heated air to the radiator.
Klaus
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That was my working theory late last week when I ordered a new thermo along with the OEM expansion tank, cap, sensor, and hoses.
The cold coolant is going somewhere and when I start the car first thing when cold, it sounds bad. Rough. A bit off key. More than just the suspected trouble with the PS pump. It's never sounded like this before. Something is wrong.
Time for me to get really up-close and personal with this white block. I'm not looking forward to it, but I know I can learn this engine. I know much of what I know about the B18B/B20E by doing a head gasket and similar repairs.
I'll report back after I've made some progress.
Figures that something major mechanical would get me just when I started to address the minor (and mainly cosmetic) issues.
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Removing the head on a 5 cyl is nothing like the red blocks, it is most difficult.
If the engine is making strange noises, could it be the water pump? When you first noticed the leak, did the low level light come on? These white blocks don't do well without coolant. Please take off the timing belt cover and take a look at the water pump, any antifreeze around it is bad news. Start the engine with the cover off and listen for noise.
You are quite correct (watching too much Top Gear), the coolant should not flow out of the bottle at start up. I have no idea where it is going and why it is coming back when the engine heats up. It makes no sense. A severely blown head gasket would only add air and cause the coolant to bubble, not lower the level.
I would do a compression test before pulling the head. I also would pull the water pump, just make sure the timing marks are lined up before lifting the tensioner.
Klaus
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"...A severely blown head gasket would only add air and cause the coolant to bubble, not lower the level..."
I'm going to lean a slightly different direction - may be totally wrong....
He says he loses water while the car is sitting, yet it's not going into the tranny, not filling the crank case, not leaking on the floor board (although he "smells" it inside the car), and not running out anywhere under the car. That doesn't leave much for possibilities, EXCEPT he says it runs very rough when first starting up cold. I think it's filling a cylinder(s) with coolant when sitting and then when he starts it, it either pushes it back into the water jacket or out the exhaust or a little of both. That would explain the rough running.
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I like your theory, but there is not much space in a single cylinder to hold water. Let me see, 2.4L divided by 5 = .5L or a pint of water??? A couple of cold starts and the muffler would be full :)
A compression test is needed, but then with a hole that large, he should also be getting a misfire code.
Arrrrrrrrrrgh!
Klaus
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"...A compression test is needed..."
Agree there! He said he wasn't sure if his compression tester would reach to the bottom of the spark plug well.
"...with a hole that large, he should also be getting a misfire code..."
Something I've been wondering - Is a misfire code triggered only by a break in the ignition path, or are there other things that can sense a misfire that might be caused by a non-ignition problem like a manifold gasket leak, or no compression. I don't know what sensor would detect those kinds of problems if the ignition is still firing correctly. Just been curious about that....
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It is the front O2 sensor that detects a misfire! Sort of. The sensor sends the info to the computer, because each pulse from the cylinders is slightly different depending on the amount of spent gases and unburned fuel being detected.
The ECU then determines which cyl is not burning fuel by the crank position and sets the code. Pretty slick!!
Klaus
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Ahhh, very interesting. Thanks.
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I've had misc. misfire codes for a while now. A mixture of "Random Misfire" and Codes for #5 and #3 in the past. Around the time that coolant loss became critical, it set a #5 misfire which still has not cleared out on it's own.
Today, I got into the engine. Drained the engine oil and remaining coolant, and removed the battery and similar plastic hoses and whatnot on the left bay. All the "junk" on the diver's side has now been removed, as well as the injector rail, hoses, coolant expansion tank. I've removed the top cover, timing covers, and the 40+ bolts for the top half of the head. I've levered a gap into the top cover, but have stopped until my IPD serpentine belt tool arrives this PM.
The Head Gasket guide I've been referring to is for a non-turbo car, but I've been able to work around the minor differences.
With the left inner fender well removed, I cranked the engine to #1 TDC (I hope) before I began major disassembly.
According to the guide, I may need to remove the starter and the PCV hoses along the "back" of the engine (Driver's side). My pcv hose is bad (broken plastic), but I'm not planning on doing the water pump, so maybe the starter can stay in. I didn't see anything odd around the water pump. Once I get the belts off, I'll check it for wobble.
The car has never really overheated. Even when the heater hose blew back in February, the temp never went above the midpoint. During this last spate of coolant loss, the temp did start climbing above normal and that's the main reason I parked it and have set about taking the engine it down to the head.
I've crossed my fingers hoping that I stopped running the car before serious damage via overheating occurred.
I've now got some Head Gasket questions, but I'll spawn a new thread for that.
I appreciate you guys puzzling over this problem. I'll report back with a photo as soon as I reach the Head.
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It took so long to upload I got impatient and hit Submit again.
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Could it be you actually have a blown head gasket and what you're seeing are compression bubbles being blown through the cooling system?
Coolant smell inside the cabin is not a good thing. But if you do have a compression leak into the water jacket, and the coolant cap is screwed on tight, etc., the pressure could be phenominal and play hell on things like the heater core.
Not trying to freak you out on purpose - just thinking here.....
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If the gasket were blown, wouldn't I be seeing other issues? creamy oil, white smoke, etc?
Something's very wrong here. The coolant is vanishing at an astounding rate. 1/2 gallon top-off was gone in a few miles. Yet, there are no pools of coolant under the car.
Incidentally, my temp gauge *does* go above the half mark.
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Another thought, if the overflow bottle is sucked dry after startup, the pump is working OK. There is air in the system.
Klaus
--
1967 220 belonging to C.A. lives on
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I've been wondering that myself, Experience with other volvos tells me that 2 gallons of coolant/distilled mix should be the capacity.
After getting it all back together, I poured in as much coolant as possible and ran it for an extended period - allowing the car to reach full temp and topping it off after massaging the upper and lower hoses.
The temp gauge on this car never goes above the 1/2 mark. So either it's never gotten too hot, or the gauge is broken...
I was surprised when I was only able to get 1 3/4 gallons into the system after reaching temperature. I was not too concerned when I topped it up on Tuesday, but after a week, I'd think that the air would have cycled out. I had no such issues with my 940 radiator replacement back in 2005.
I had to put another 1/2 gallon of distilled into the car this AM.
When leaving work, the car was fine, and then the low coolant light came on and then went off and stayed off. So I guess the pump is working.
I could smell some coolant as I drove and upon returning home, I could see the expansion tank was full to the brim (again) and some more residual leak around the cap. I could also detect some residual spray around the top of the timing belt case.
understanding the compression properties of air, I could understand that there might be a big bubble in the system, but if it hasn't worked out by now, how could I successfully clear it?
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What a good puzzle! When the thermostat opens, the overflow bottle empties (!) and then fills up again. That makes no sense at all. I can understand it overflowing due too much fluid, did that once on my 220 by filling after startup. Sucking the bottle dry is an indication of a large bubble in the upper hose.
You are correct in assuming that all of the air in the engine passageways is now filled with fluid. Same with the radiator, otherwise you would never have poured in 2 gallons. You did take the plastic cover off the bottom radiator port :)
Klaus
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1967 220 belonging to C.A. lives on
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There's an idea... both ports were open when I unpacked the new radiator and there was a cylinder-in-block sort of foam insert. If there was another plug, that might explain a few things. These issues seem consistent with some sort of blockage.
My new lower radiator hose arrived today with a bundle of 940 stuff. I'll check it when I replace the lower hose tomorrow.
I'm still new to these white block engines.
Thanks for the all the advice so far. I just hope I can trace this before something bad happens to the engine.
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Man, how frustrating. Based on your descriptions I began thinking of air in the system, too. I have a "T" fitting on a heater line for flushing and I leave the cap off when I fill the system and big bubbles of air emerge for some time.
You also mentioned that you have a compression gauge so you could test the cylinders for low compression on adjoining holes.
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Thanks Bob. I think I've been chasing symptoms of a larger problem for a while now. I just ran the car for a while with the cap off. I watched small bubbles come the surface of the reservoir for several minutes. When I revved the engine, suddenly great large roiling bubbles came to the top. They kept until I let the engine return to idle.
I think it is now clear that I'm getting exhaust into my cooling jacket. Best get this taken care of before I lose the engine. A head kit, new bolts, and secondary gaskets are on the way. Looks like my holiday is not going to be one.
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That should not have happened. Been there, done that with the intercooler hose!!
After you filled the system with antifreeze, you did run the engine and burp the top line after the thermostat opened. That should be done as soon as the antifreeze starts to flow into the radiator and with the overflow bottle cap off.
You didn't mention the temp gauge, it should have red lined. If it didn't, there is air in the system and you are trying to cool steam.
Putting in a new OEM type thermostat is a good idea. If it weren't so darn hard, I would suggest taking the thermostat out and running with an open system. That gets all of the bubbles out faster. Make sure you do not get glycol all over the alternator, it will ruin it.
Klaus
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1967 220 belonging to C.A. lives on
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