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Hello all. I'm pretty new to this forum as far as posting but have been reading many-many threads over the months when trying to diagnose problems with my son's Volvo 850 GLT. I must say, this forum has been a GREAT help. My hat is off to all you knowledgeable folk for the help you provide to others.
Ok, on to my latest problem.....we are dealing with a 93' 850 GLT 2.4ltr 5 cyl non turbo auto trans model. I'm pretty green at this so if there is other pertinent info. you need right off the bat please tell me what I need to provide and I'll be glad to give it (if I know it).
The problem seems to be a pretty common one for this particular model from what I've read here and on a few other Volvo Forums. To start off with, the car takes a couple turns of the key to turn over/start. Once running it idles just fine. But, when you go to accelerate it really lags, almost dies but not quite. If you feather the gas peddle it will slowly come up to speed and then appear to run fine for the most part. That's around town up to speeds of about 35 mph. However, if you are on the freeway the problem is even worse and has on 2 occasions actually stalled and died.
From reading tons of posts all over the place about these symptoms here is what we have done so far....
1.) Replaced the Fuel Pump Relay
2.) Replaced the MAF sensor (Mass AirFlow Sensor)
3.) Replaced the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor)
*The only code that we ever got was a 1-2-1 indicating the MAF Sensor which is why it was the 1st thing we replaced. Ever since then no new codes or even a repeat of the 1-2-1 has come up even though the car is still doing the same thing.
It seemed to be doing better for a day or two after these changes but is right back where it was before.
The latest thing we did just yesterday was a Fuel pressure check. I don't know what all you are supposed to do for a "complete" test so we just took readings at a fully warmed up idling engine. We only had 29 psi! I know it's supposed to be about 43 psi. Here's my question....how do I know if that means I have a bad Fuel Pump as opposed to say a bad Fuel Pressure Regulator? Any other specific tests we can do with those two things to help narrow it down?
Before ya ask, no, we can not afford to take it to a Volvo dealer (or any mechanic for that matter) at this point. Personal financial woes will not allow for that. Besides, I have read post after post of people who have had this exact same problem, have taken it to a Volvo dealer and after a few thousand bucks either still couldn't tell them what was wrong or just replaced about 5 or 6 things and never really know which one actually fixed it. So even if I had the money I would not feel confident in having this issue resolved by a dealer. I have more faith in folks who have had hands on experience with this exact issue. Hope you understand what I'm trying to convey.
At this point my next step would be to replace the Fuel Pressure Regulator only because it is around $50.00 as compared to a new Fuel pump which range from $200.00-$400.00 depending on what and where you get it from. I wouldn't mind spending the $50.00 on the Regulator if I thought that was the problem and because it probably should be replaced any way, but, if it turns out that it isn't the problem that $50.00 would go a long ways towards a new Fuel pump. Know what I mean!?
Please forgive my horrifically long post. I promise to keep it short and concise when answering any follow up questions. If anyone has any helpful insights or suggestions I would love to hear them. Thank you very much for your time.
Bryan
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A little clarification and some questions:
When you say it takes a couple of turns of the key to get it to start/turn over are you meaning that it takes a couple of turns to get the car to turn over, or a couple of times starting (3-5seconds of turning over each time) before it fires up and runs?
How's the engine perform if you put the car into neutral and hit the gas? Does it rev fine or not?
When the car isn't starting crank if for 3-5 seconds and pull out a plug. Are they soaked in fuel?
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Welcome, and I hope we can help.
It is not your fuel pump, yet.
Yes, your pressure regulator could be bad. What happens then is that fuel will go through the FPR, into the vacuum line to the vacuum tree at the throttle body, and into the manifold. When this raw fuel is dumped into the manifold, you will run rich and start fouling plugs.
The FPR is under the fuel rail, easily located by its vacuum line. There should be no gasoline in the vacuum line. The line on my 1995 850 was clear so it was easy to spot gas droplets.
Also, when my FPR failed, starting the car took a lot of cranking, and then there qas a puff of black smoke when the engine finally caught.
Other probable causes require you to inspect ALL of the vacuum lines, they are getting a little old. Any unmetered air entering the manifold will cause a rich condition.
Pull a couple of spark plugs and check their condition. If they are light grey, you are running too lean - time to check the fuel filter (less than $20).
Klaus
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Two great Volvos, a 1967 220 and a 1998 V70R
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Thanks for your input KlausC. Very much appreciated. Yes, I know exactly where the FPR is so I'll look into it a bit closer. Are you saying that one thing to do would be to pull the vacuum hose on it and see if there's any gas dripping from it? I think I heard about this before so I think I'll try that. The spark plugs were just replaced (should have mentioned that...sorry) and they didn't look "unusual" in color, just well used, but now I wish I had paid closer attention to what they actually looked like. And the fuel filter....duh! Dang it, meant to do that as well but need to order one in as none of my local auto parts stores have one in stock. Also, have been "trying" to check all the vacuum hoses but my gosh there's a ton of them! LOL Still checking those though.
Just curious, what's your take on the low fuel pressure? The only thing you seemed to mention was a new fuel filter. Would that low of pressure indicate something more serious? Like a bad fuel pump, sender, or regulator? (which you already addressed I know). Boy, if we can get out of this pickle with a new fuel filter I'll be elated as well as feel really stupid. But, I can live with feeling stupid. LOL
Thanks again
Bryan
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Not knowing your location, if there are any pick&pull yards close by, use them! Get a spare fuel pump and a few other parts that you know will come in handy, you can get a fuel pump from 1993-2000.
Check Craigslist also, look under auto parts and search for Volvo. someone may be parting out an 850.
A sender only has the tank level and nothing to do with pressure.
Klaus
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Two great Volvos, a 1967 220 and a 1998 V70R
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Your low fuel pressure, you did the test with the engine running or the engine stopped and the fuel pump jumped? If you did it while running 29 is inaccurate. You have to do the test with the engine off. To do the test you jump pins 1 and 3 (top center to bottom center) on your fuel pump relay (position 103 in your relay box). I'll bet you get close to the right number..
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You are correct, I did it with the car on. Hmmm...the dog-gon Haynes Manual didn't say a thing about that. It only shows one figure in the table for fuel pressure and that was 43psi. I'll have to look at that section again as I thought it says to do it with the car running. Thanks for pointing this out. I'm pretty green when it comes to some of this stuff but I can "try" the jumping thing I guess. Thanks very much.
Bryan
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You just connect a wire from top to bottom.. Just remember to pull the cable and replace the relay when you're done testing!
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Ok thanks. On the subject of testing the fuel pressure I have a couple more questions. What's the difference between "jumping" the Fuel Pump Relay and having the key in the II position (engine not running)? Only reason I ask is that when reading someone else's reply to a post on this exact same thing in another forum this person said to take like 3 readings (maybe 4). One with just the engine not running but key turned to II position, one with car idling, one with the motor running at WOT for a couple seconds. Can't remember what the 4th might have been.
My other question is, just how fast should the needle on the gauge rise? I was under the impression that it should shoot right up being that the system "should" already be under pressure, right? I mention this only because for my test the needle crept steadily but very slowly up the gauge. I would have thought it would pop right up. Anyway....
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Turning the key to pos II runs the pump for a couple of seconds to build up pressure. Your needle should go from 0 to 30+ lbs right away. If it takes a couple of turns of the key to get pressure, then the gasoline in the line is flowing back to the tank when the engine is off.
There is a preventer valve between the filter and pump that needs to be replaced. Jumping the relay enables the pump to run continously with the key in pos II or III.
Feel good about this, newer Volvos have the valve as part of the fuel pump. When the valve fails, the pump gets replaced!
Klaus
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Two great Volvos, a 1967 220 and a 1998 V70R
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Don't get off track. Check your fuel pressure again, now that you are running. This will show you what the FPR looks like:
http://www.fcpgroton.com/product-exec/product_id/19762/nm/1993_1995_Volvo_850_Fuel_Pressure_Regulator/category_id/149
If your fuel pressure is still too low, suspect a bad FPR. I don't think the FPR is a problem in your case.
But what you might have is just the back flow preventer that is broken. A good junk yard will have them.
Klaus
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Two great Volvos, a 1967 220 and a 1998 V70R
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Ok guys I have an update for you! I feel like such an idiot but....I replaced his fuel filter with a brand new one about an hour ago and it seems we are 99% there! Currently the car idles smoothly and there is no stalling, lurching, or "dead spots" (lack of power) both with regular driving and also when "punching it". That's in town. The big test was when we took it out on the freeway. No problems accelerating up to full speed from 0 to-65 mph and also when punching it for passing. Unbelievable! Of course I'll feel better about it after he's driven to work for about a week to see how it does. He has about a 10-15 min. commute via the freeway every day so it'll be a good test. The only reason I say we are 99% of the way there is because it still takes at least 2 cranks (turning the key off and then on again) to start the car. Once running though it idles nice.
Per some suggestions by others we are going to: Put in a new set of spark plugs this weekend and also pull the vacuum tree off and make sure it's good and clean inside. I think I'll try taking the fuel pressure regulator off so I can get to the vacuum line that has been mentioned and see if any fuel is leaking from there. I guess neither of the 2 black rubber hose/lines that I can see just looking at it (while still attached under the fuel rail) is NOT the vacuum line, correct? it must be coming off the bottom/backside (facing directly towards the manifold) which is why I'll have to take it off. Lastly, I may even get bold and see if I can remove the entire throttle assembly if it's not to hard and make sure it's good and clean inside to be sure nothing is gummed up and preventing it from opening/closing properly. Good idea or no?
Thanks again for all the help thus far. If you have any more suggestions/input I'm all ears. I'll report back with any new updates/changes and let you know how it all turns out.
Regards
Bryan
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Congrats!
The vacuum line is on the underside of the fuel rail, its 99% easier to get to it with the rail off. It connects to your vacuum tree, its a little plastic tube not a big rubber hose (at leased supposed to be, who knows what previous owner did..).
I don't know how long you've had the car, but its likely if the fuel filter hasn't been changed in so long (Volvo recommends 50,000 miles/change, I'd guess 75+ on yours, maybe even 100) I doubt your PCV has been cleaned in that long. To verify if it has or not (a good check either way) is to pull the dipstick out when the engine is hot and running and see if smoke is puffing out.. another check is if you get oil sitting on the top of your engine (it likely came out your oil filler cap..) If you have 5 or so hours you do the job and you get a bunch clean. Replacing a bunch of the components would be a good idea but if you're strapped for cash, blowing compressed air will do the trick for most of them. As always, broken/cracked vacuum line HAS TO BE REPLACED.
I can send you a PDF of how to to do that repair if you'd like (i don't know who free hosts pdf's or i'd give you that) or you can find plenty of links on this site, and matthews volvo site.
The flow back stopper that Klaus alluded to would probably help it start first time, although second isn't bad. I can't find a part number for you, sorry.
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Thanks tmannian. My son has had the car for about 4 years now and I guarantee he hasn't done squat to it. I will check the vacuum hose on the FPR as suggested as well as pull the vacuum "tree" as suggested by someone else and make sure that's all clean. I'm also going to have him buy a new set of spark plugs, rotor, and Dist. cap. When he can afford it a new set of spark plug wires would also be nice. I'm going to try another Fuel Pressure check now that it seems to running much better after putting the new fuel filter on yesterday. Just curious what reading(s) I'll get. Ya, not sure about that other little valve mentioned. I'm not even positive where it's located but I'm thinking between the fuel filter and fuel pump?? Maybe between the fuel pump and engine? Who knows. I ordered a manual for the car that will be here by Thursday so I'm sure it will tell me.
Yes, I'd like the PDF but the only way would probably be via email. Is it larger than 5 MB? I believe that's the limit my email server allows for files/attachments. If it is bigger then no big deal. Like you said, there are probably other links on line that I can find for the process. Thanks for the offer.
Regards
Bryan
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posted by
someone claiming to be volvo85094
on
Tue Aug 24 06:07 CST 2010 [ RELATED]
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You can detach the vacuum hose just by sticking your fingers underneath the rail on the manifold side where the FPR is. No need to take the whole rail off because you can create new problems, if you are inexperienced like losing the seals in the block or breaking one seal in the top end of the injector and creating a catastrophic fuel leak. Or having the metal cover come off the rail.
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Yikes!! Don't scare me like that!! LOL Ya, I'm inexperienced and that's exactly the kind of stuff I'm afraid of running into. Thanks for the heads up!
Regards
Bryan
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posted by
someone claiming to be volvo850
on
Wed Aug 25 12:54 CST 2010 [ RELATED]
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Sorry, I dont mean to scare u. I am a backyard mechanic myself but Ive kept 8 Volvos running since 1998(5/ 240 1 740 and 3 /850). Its just that you have to apply force to detach
the rail with the injectors and it has to be strong but gentle or gradual not jerking it. There is a metal tip on the right end you can use to pull it. dont pull the rail cover cause it may come off... I have broken seals working on it and I have spares around if you dont the car is grounded. Also the bolts are going into all aluminum so torque gently. It is not your cast iron block.
Your local u pick can be your best friend for parts and practice.
Like I said just check or detach the vacuum hose without taking the rail if you are not changing the FPR. My car had this hose cut and it would randomly not start until I changed it. Heads up!
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Oh, no problem. You didn't REALLY scare me like I made it sound. LOL But I appreciated the detailed info. as I can see how easy it would be for someone as green as me at this to wreck an injector or two if not done correctly. So thanks for the heads up.
Thanks
Bryan
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posted by
someone claiming to be volvo850
on
Thu Aug 26 07:52 CST 2010 [ RELATED]
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One last thing: make sure the engine is ice cold if you are going to try this. The seals on the rail side are like rubber doughnuts and they harden over time hence the seal(not the injector) may chip or dent if you pull it out. ( it'll start but it is a major fire risk as the gas falls right onto the hot manifold). best thing to do is to send out for rebuilt five injectors picked at the u pull it
and replace the old ones for about $125. They come with new seals and pay off by themselves with gas mileage and more power. Regards.
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Something to consider for sure. Thanks very much.
Bryan
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or you can replace the seals for like $1-2 a seal. They're not that hard to replace just need patience
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