posted by
someone claiming to be PS
on
Mon Dec 3 14:38 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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After our 2000 model s80 broke down we were informed by our dealer that we must have struck something which broke the air intake tube under the car and subsequently pushed it into the serpentine belt which broke and flung itself into the timing belt which "jumped tracks?" and bent/broke the valves in the cylinder. Frankly I had never heard of such a catastrophe. My concern is that there may be a design flaw in the car causing such a horrendous outcome to a seemingly trivial problem (broken air intake tube) Let alone the fact that we had never hit anything or driven over anything. The car is used rarely and had only 12000 mile on it. I have asked that the Volvo rep see the car and he determined that the bill is our reponsibility ($3500) Does anyone have any suggestions. Is this a lemon law issue? Do I need a lawyer?
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Why do these engines have to be such hand grenades???? The manufactures that turn out these interference engines have no reguard for the customers that buy their products. The money for the failure is only part of the problem. Once a tech on flate rate takes your engine appart is will never the same again. I have seen valve guides scratch the the guide bores when being removed and the engine will use oil that seeps between the guide and the head. I have seen those little scotch bright pad discs used on the head and cam tower surfaces and cause the engine to leak oil forever. The days of the tractor engine lasting forever are gone. Just look for the recycle I.D. tag on your engine so you dispose of it properly. You know, that little triangle shaped thing of arrows with some nifty code in the center.
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posted by
someone claiming to be DW
on
Thu Dec 6 08:21 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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Volvo definitely knows about this design flaw. The last time my 2000 returned from service, I noticed the tube had been cut flush with the splash pan, and there was no note of that fix on my work order.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Martin Bullen
on
Wed Dec 5 14:10 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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Worst case scenario, and not debating the merits of a crappy design, what was hit, or whether anything was hit at all, BUT, if Volvo wont cough up for the repair, you have a potential claim with your insurance company under the collision portion of your policy.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Roy Olson
on
Tue Dec 4 02:52 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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Get a lawyer. Volvo's arrogance and total lack of consideration for its customers, coupled with just all-around crappy cars, has caused me to go Japanese after 33 years of Volvo ownership. Competent Volvo service departments are no longer the norm and properly designed engines are a definte rarity. Why did I experience two timing belt failures on a B21 with no engine damage? Because the engine was properly designed, that's why. Replace the belt and drive on. Sorry about the rant but Volvo should be taken to task on your problem.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Michael
on
Fri Jan 25 16:00 CST 2002 [ RELATED]
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"Why did I experience two timing belt failures on a B21 with no engine damage? Because the engine was properly designed, that's why."
Or because it's only got 8 valves, and it can be made as a non-interference engine. Not even all red block Volvo 4cyl/8V engines were non-interference, so consider yourself lucky that you got away with 2 broken belts. Did the t-belt failures happen with less than or more than 50K miles on them? I doubt you'd be so lucky with your Japanese car if it's got more than 2V/cyl.
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posted by
someone claiming to be T
on
Mon Dec 3 16:34 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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I heard about that happening at a Volvo meeting last spring. It's '99 and maybe early '00 S80s where the control unit air tube hangs about 3" below the bumper. It's easily bumped and if bumped too hard, the scene you described can occur.
They should have a recall or campaign on it to protect all early S80 owners (or themselves if under warranty) because its solution is simple and takes minutes to cure. Ever since hearing about this, I cut the tube shorter so it's flush, then I further add a plastic tie strip to the tube, tied at another fastening point under the hood. I do this at no charge to anyone because I've seen that engine replaced and I don't want to do it myself, way too much work. If the t-belt breaks from the housing being rubbed through, it'll cost way more than $3500 if out of warranty as it'll probably need a reman engine, big $$$.
Volvo use to be good at fixing their problems but no longer. They need to get their act together.
The design was changed in newer S80s, tube doesn't go that low now but nothing's being done by Volvo.....YET!
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posted by
someone claiming to be Jeff Eschenbach
on
Tue Dec 4 09:07 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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My question is why is the air intake duct so low to the ground?? Sucking in water from a flooded street can also be pretty damaging to an engine.
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posted by
someone claiming to be n0v8or
on
Tue Dec 4 13:35 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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Jeff poses a valid question.
This air intake does not supply the engine fuel system. It is one of two approximately 1" diameter intake tubes that supply (or vent) air to the enclosure housing the engine and transmission management computers (ECU / TCU). There is an additional duct at the rear that appears to go the cabin air circulation blower. My assessment is that the cabin blower is used to pull outside air aver the ECU for cooling.
The engine air intake is located high, behind the grille. One of the ECU-box intakes is located on the radiator fan shroud. The second passes along and around the washer fluid reservoir, then within 3/4" of the serpentine accessory drive belt. A cross member keeps it from moving rearward if it stikes a curb. Instead, it will be displaced upward, into the belt. Since it transitions from a 1.5" x 0.5" rigid duct to a 1" diameter hose before entering the ECU housing, I just replaced the whole thing with a 1" rubber hose (old water hose from a Nissan pickup at a junk yard). I also moved the entry point to a location well away from the belt (which required cutting a new hole in the thin plastic underbelly cover).
Were it not for messages posted on this and other S80 boards, I would not have had the foresight to correct this serious design deficiency before disaster struck. My old S70 had many scrapes on the bottom of the front bumper cover from parking curbs. It would have been just a matter of time before we destroyed our engine at 2 less than 2 miles per hour. The folks that low-speed crash-test cars and calculate repair costs would be appalled by this horrid design.
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posted by
someone claiming to be PS
on
Tue Dec 4 00:50 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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how can i get more information about this problem and where it might be documented.
I would appreciate any help.
I already contacted Volvo of NA and spoke to someone at the presidents office. they were nice but I have a feeling that they are not going to offer any help in this matter. She said that she would check with the engineering department and get back to the service advisor. I dont think that I will get very far with them directly. I am contemplating hiring a lawyer.
Thanks again.
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posted by
someone claiming to be T
on
Tue Dec 4 23:57 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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Unfortunately for you, it's not in print anywhere in any of Volvos literature and due to obvious possible legalities, I'm sure it never will be. I heard about it verbally. You'll also fail at getting anyone from Volvo, including reps or dealer management, writers to admit to knowing anything about this.
So, I can't tell you how to proceed legally but it's now up to people at this board with S80s who note this and techs in the field who hopefully know about it, if they're concerned and care, to do what little we can when we see a car that's not been modified, as I mentioned earlier to correct this with individual cars.
My 2 step easy fix, takes a minute or two:
1) From under front of car, cut access tubing with hack saw blade, blade only as it helps get access close to the air guide, so that it's flush with air guide.
2) Open hood and take one long plastic tie strap and tie the tube to the large wiring harness in front of it.
Once these 2 steps are done, I highly doubt that it can come loose and ever be a problem.
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posted by
someone claiming to be n0v8or
on
Wed Dec 5 06:03 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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This is excellent, and unfortunately, realistic advice. No one at in any official capacity at Volvo is likely to admit to having recognized this fault.
However, I do not completely agree with your remedy.
The shape of the original duct, and the way it is cut (tapered from front to back; longer in the front) will be immediately recognized by anyone familiar with aircraft as a simple aspirator. I know I called it an "intake" in my earlier post, but that was so not to inject a new variable into the discussion. I now realize that choice of term was a mistake. While some Volvo design practices may be questionable, I cannot believe they would draw cooling air for the ECU at a point only a few inches from the ground. Hardly a dust-free source. I think this is a "draft tube", used in conjunction with the intake at the radiator shroud, to improve the circulation of air within the ECU enclosure at road speeds (in other words, no pun intended, it sucks air out). Cutting the orifice with a hacksaw as you suggest, will likely reduce aspiirator effectiveness, leading to less air flow over the ECU. My modification retains the original shape, but relocates it forward and introduces a flexible element to absorb upward motion. The original rigid duct only has to move 3/4" before coming into contact with the belt, and the point of contact is only a few inches from the lower end. Additional retainers will not prevent this relatively slight displacement when striking an unyielding surface (like a concrete parking curb or high manhole cover).
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posted by
someone claiming to be T
on
Thu Dec 6 00:57 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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"However, I do not completely agree with your remedy"
For one, I have yet to hear about any ECU overheating and mostly, concerning my point..............these aren't my cars and I'm doing this for FREE! No charge to anyone AND it'll solve the problem, that tube will never rub against any belt.
Until someone wants to pay me for a better method, I think my idea's good and definately better than nothing.
Furthermore, the newer '01s on up have that same tube cut EXACTLY where I cut the older ones, hmmmmmmmmmmmmm (not overheating either).
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posted by
someone claiming to be Russ
on
Wed Dec 5 08:09 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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n0v8or,
I like your fix. I too had the draft tube come loose and it had rubbed against the serpentine belt. I brought it to my dealer, which was booked solid for 3 weeks, and got a tech to look at it on an emergency basis. He took one look and knew the whole story. He told the service manager the possible senario, previously discussed on this board, and they took my car in immediately, replaced the bottom bracket which holds the tube, washed the car and I had it back in 45 minutes. Great service, but I'm definitely going to get under there and apply your fix also. I doing an oil change in a couple of days, so now is the time.
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posted by
someone claiming to be n0v8or
on
Wed Dec 5 09:34 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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I made an oversize hole in the bottom cover through which the rubber hose protrudes, and cut the end at an angle similar to the original plastic duct. A possible improvement might be to screw another flat plate to the bottom cover, with a rectangular slot cut in it (could be made of plastic or metal) to force the hose termination into an oval shape, while adding another retention point. Another passibility is to cut off and re-use the fist 2" of the original duct. You will end up with plastic - rubber - plastic, or two rigid sections with a flexible part in between. A couple of hose clamps would hold it all together.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Russ
on
Wed Dec 5 10:15 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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Thanks Bob. I'll let you know how it turns out.
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posted by
someone claiming to be n0v8or
on
Tue Dec 4 01:56 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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I have read reports of 4 similar incidents posted on various Volvo-owner boards in the last 6 months. Thanks to those reports, I became aware of this design weakness and inspected my 2001 S80. Sure enough, there is a hard plastic air intake that protrudes approximately 2" below the bumper, and is mounted very close to the external ("serpentine") accessory drive belt. All that is necessary is to drive up to a high parking curb (very common in the USA) until the front tires are in contact with the curb. At that point, the damage will have been done. Evidently, once the drive belt breaks, the internal tining belt is also affected. I don't understand this cause-effect relationship, but if Volvo drives the timing chain from an external pulley to obtain a gear ratio without internal engine components, this is a terrible design. It would mean that any failure of the external serpentine drive belt will also damage the engine (with a subsequent repair cost of more than US$3000). Is anyone familiar with how the timing belt is driven in the I6 gasoline engine? Why doesn't Volvo warn of this possibility in the Owner's manual, and recommend frequent external drive belt replacments?
To prevent future problems, I substituted an input tube of soft rubber (found something suitable at a wrecking yard), and trashed the bad-design Volvo part. The installation is crude and not very attractive, but it works. My air intake can now flex and bend if I park at a high curb, and will not come in contact with the drive belt. Volvo should be making this change for all V70 / S80 owners. It might cost them all of US$3.00 to make a custom rubber duct in high volume.
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posted by
someone claiming to be David M
on
Tue Dec 4 04:25 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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Is there an effective way to get the attention of the folks at the NHTSA?
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posted by
someone claiming to be Russell D. Ollie Sr.
on
Tue Dec 4 16:15 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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Short of a burning bag of doggy doo through their front door? I doubt it.
You generally need several owners reporting the same complaint (use their website to report it) to get their attention.
-rdo
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posted by
someone claiming to be jon
on
Mon Dec 3 16:11 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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I don't know much about your engine but I cannot imagine that a serpentine belt would be able to break through the timing belt cover to cause it to fail. Whatever the reason for such a failure I would get the car to another dealer for inspection and if they do not solve the problem to your satisfaction try Volvo North America. Although quite often they are next to useless it is worth a try. If all fails than try to get an independent opinion and if it's favourable a laywer may be necessary.
Good luck.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Sin
on
Mon Dec 3 14:49 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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Sounds more like your dealership is trying to get you to pay for a tonne of repairs because of a component failure, that is if the car never did hit anything. I can't count as high as the number of times brickboarders have mentioned on this board that their wife/spouse/sister/brother/etc, hit something, and failed to mention it until questioned, and usually with, "yah, I BARELY hit a LITTLE something."
I would have the car inspected by another Volvo dealership.
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