posted by
someone claiming to be Comrade Rutherford
on
Sun Oct 5 10:11 CST 2008 [ RELATED]
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I live in Vermont. Winter mornings are usually -20 or colder for months at a time.
In my 240s I'd use 5W30 and switch to 10W30 for summer.
I've seen Klaus say here several times not to use 5W30.
So ... 10W30 year round? Even when it's -30F for that whole week in Feb, when the 2 PM temp reading is all the way up to -2F? It seems so cold that 10W30 has the consistency of yogurt.
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I just filled the crankcase of our 850 wagon with five quarts of Mobil 1 0W-40 and topped off with Mobil 1 10W-30. I wanted to get some baseline mileage information.
I probably won't continue to use Mobil 1 with every oil change like I do in our Jeeps. I just can't justify it on a car that is almost fourteen years old. Then again it wouldn't take much of a lubricating efficiency to make the $50 oil change pay for itself over the drain interval, not when gas is expensive.
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This tread already has a good explanation of what the "xx"W30 means - so i won't duplicate it.
I use 0W30 at 8-10KM intervals in both my volvos - no oil usage, no adverse effect that is visible on the camshafts (via oil fill hole) or as material in the oil filter cup after changes. S70 non-turbo, XC90 turbo.
I use Esso XD3 0W30 available in Canada at Esso bulk distribution centers. My normal driving temps range from consistant +28C in summer (Southern Ontario) to intermitant -30C in winter (Northern ontario). The xc90 does not have a block heater installed.
MAT
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posted by
someone claiming to be Comrade Rutherford
on
Tue Oct 7 15:40 CST 2008 [ RELATED]
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OK, thanks. I mixed dino 10w30 and 5w30 when I changed the oil after I bought it. I hadn't expected to have to buy a car, so when I got this 850, I used what I had to get the old (almost black) oil out. Now that I am getting ready for winter in Vermont, I wanted to get the opinions from the board.
In my previous cars I used 5w30 in winter, but I had seen some posts here that had me questioning this.
So, thanks again, everyone. I am strongly considering a synthetic, since they are raved about here.
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If you decide to go to a synthetic, it would be a really good idea to use a good (safe) engine flush first. If you are willing to do it over a couple thousand miles, look into AutoRx. For a quick flush, the best I know of are made by AMSOIL and BG.
If you don't, or won't, use a flush, keep an eye on oil consumption. If you see a sudden increase in oil consumption after a couple thousand miles, change the filter and top off.
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One solution would be to use a good synthetic oil. Either 5W- or 10W- will crank up in pretty severe cold. For example, AMSOIL 5W-30 and 10W-30 both have pour points of -58 F.
In fact, a SAE xW-30 is within the SAE 30 range at operating temperature whether it is a 5W- or a 10W-.
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It gets a little cold here in Minnesota also, but only for about 2-3 weeks will it stay below zero all of the time. Your engine is built for 10W30 and so long as you have a charged battery, there will not be a problem.
I do not advocte running the engine more than 30 seconds before shifting the car into R or D. The seat heater is for your comfort and the engine will begin to produce heat within two minutes of "easy" drive time.
Just remember, the tranny fluid will be very cold, so take it easy. At least you don't have to plug the car in when you get to work. There are a few Brickboarders in Fairbanks where it routinely gets to -50F, and plug in heaters are required and one attaches to the tranny.
If you use 5W30 and have a turbo, beware, the turbo seals are not going to be able to keep the light oil from getting to your intake. Plus, if you use dino oil, the thin oil will break down and evaporate once the engine gets hot. I have used 0W40, 5W30, and 10W30. The 10W30 stays in the engine, the other two have me adding a quart every 2K miles.
Klaus
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Just driving a 1998 V70R :)
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I would switch to a synthetic 10w30 oil, and use it year round. My family, and I just got back from Burlington, VT. Nice Town. My friend there says that it regularly is 20 below in the winters.
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i lived in new england for almost 7 years. BLOODY COLD in the winter sometimes. never used anything but 10w30 or 10w40.
a new england tradition i recall is the remote starters for the cars everywhere. i would let my engine warm up for 2~3 minutes when its below freezing. the lower the difference between the high and low number of your oil the more actual 'oil stock' in the mix and fewer 'additives' so it should last longer before breakdown.
i don't have the 850 manual but i cannot recall any reference to low viscosity oils, even in low temps. using the wrong oil can harm your engine, bear in mind that 5w 30 oil is thin and if your car is made to take a 10w 30 (usually the standard viscosity) using the 5w oil might not do your engine much good at all.
good luck!
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-woodsytf '95 850 wagon 160k
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+1 to klaus' suggestion.
any 10w oil gets plenty warm enough to do its job in 2~3 minutes. i would play it safe and protect the engine better with the 10w oils.
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-woodsytf '95 850 wagon 160k
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I think it's the 30 weight that's important
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'97 855na, Mobil 1, K&N, various IPD's and eBay's
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I will admit that I don't know how the viscosity ratings match up with 'thin'/'thick' - ness, as some other posters have commented on.
However, as I understand it, for multigrade oil the two numbers are ratings at different temperatures, which I believe are -x deg celsius, and 100 deg celsius respectively (from the wikiped article linked below: " A 0W oil is tested at −35 °C (−31 °F), a 5W at −30 °C (−22 °F) and a 10W is tested at −25 °C (−13 °F). "). They indicate the 'flow' rate and 'protective' qualities of the oil at the given temp vs standard single weight oil. It's not hard to see that the 'W' stands for 'winter'.
As oil gets colder it doesn't flow as well (it gets thick and slow like molasses) which leads to 'dry' starts, so that is the principle concern at low temps.
As oil gets hotter it doesn't protect/lubricate as well (it gets thin and can burn off/evaporate - think of melting butter), so that is the principle concern at high temps.
ie:
10W-30
- flows as well as SAE 10 weight oil at 0 deg celsius
- protects as well as SAE 30 weight oil at 100 deg celsius
5W-30
- flows as well as SAE 5 weight oil at 0 deg celsius
- protects as well as SAE 30 weight oil at 100 deg celsius
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil#Multi-grade
If this is the only consideration then it would seem like 5W-30 would be a much better choice for cold temperatures, as it should flow better at the cold temps, while it's protection/lubrication level should be the same as 10W-30 at the rated 'hot' temperature.
Of course this is not the only consideration - there are additive packages, detergent qualities, and also the effect that 'service' will have on an oil which I understand effectively brings the two numbers closer together the longer the oil is used (though I understand that synthetics can help alleviate this effect).
I don't believe that I've ever heard anyone suggest that an oil can possibly have a 'W' rating that is too low - though I suppose it may be the case that this is possible. I don't know if this would/could cause damage or not, though from a quick analysis of the info available this doesn't seem likely. I'd love to hear other opinions on this.
It would appear to me that the lower the 'W' rating the better, suggesting that 0W-30 synthetic would be an ideal winter oil for these cars, and I believe that this is what the owner's manual suggests for environments with sustained cold temps below -25 deg celsius. This is expensive oil though.
I live in Canada (NB) and we usually go for about a month with temps consistently below -20 deg celsius (~-10F) and it will routinely drop below -35 deg celsius (~-30F). That's pretty cold. Not the coldest it gets in Canada to be sure, but pretty damn cold.
I use synthetic 0W-40 in my snowblower. It only takes about .7 litres though, and I change it once every year, so I don't mind shelling out the $15 for quality oil.
It would be significantly more expensive to use 0W-30 synthetic in my car all winter.
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1998 V70 AWD Turbo 180k+
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What do you use in your V70 AWD during winter? I too live in VT, and I usually run 10/30 synthetic in my '98 v70 AWD during non-winter months. I think I'll put 5/30 synthetic in this winter.
I just put 5/30 synthetic in my '04 xc90 (as the manual suggests for winter--we haven't had this car through a winter yet).
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I actually just got my 98 V70 AWD. This will be my first winter with this car.
I was actually hoping someone would weigh in with some real advice about whether there is any real reason to not use 5W-30...
I don't think I feel comfortable using a standard dino 10W-30 all winter in NB.
Right now, the temps here range from ~-5degC in the early morning hours to ~15-20degC during the late afternoon.
I just don't trust a dino 10W-30 to flow properly during those cold early morning starts, and the short-trip-driving that typifies our weekly routine, after 3000-5000 miles. I'm sure it's probably fine when the oil is brand new, but it doesn't stay that way very long. All the short cold trips in the winter, the oil doesn't have much of a chance to A) do it's job or B) maintain it's properties.
Perhaps synthetic would be a worthwhile upgrade, but that stuff is damn expensive. I have a turbo'd engine, and I'm a firm believer in frequent oil changes with a turbo. Keeping with my current 3000 mile oil-change interval would put me in the poor house using a synthetic. They say you don't need to change as often with synthetic, but I've heard a few horror stories from a trusted mechanic.
I think a fully synthetic 10W-30 would probably fine for my current environmental temperature range. my owner's manual suggests that in 'extreme' operating environments (excessive environmental heat, a lot of towing, etc) that 15W-40 may be used, but that a fully synthetic 10W-30 would probably be a better choice. It's probably safe to say that the same holds true on the 'cold' end of the 'extreme' service range as well.
Though only to a point.
I think when it gets really cold in the middle of winter I would still want to switch to a 5W-30 (or even a 0W-30) to ensure that the oil flows on all those cold starts and doesn't tear the engine up.
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1998 V70 AWD Turbo 180k+
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Synthetic is much more expensive than the fossil fuel stuff. But, you don't need to change it as often. Go ahead, switch to 10W30 synthetic. Then replace your filter only at 4-5K miles. At 8-10K intervals replace both the filter and the oil.
There is no cost difference between 5W and 10W, so that is up to you. My 1998 is happy with 10W year round, no extra noises at start up and easy cranking. Over the years I have tried 0W and 5W. My oil consumption went up with both, I have 155K miles on the car, so I settled on 10W30.
Check your battery for age, that is the most critical part of starting a cold engine. If the battery is 4+ years old, I suggest that you invest in a trickle charger to keep it at full charge at least once a week. Short trips don't give the alternator time to keep the battery charged.
Klaus
PS, if you havent flushed the tranny fluid, do so. Also the bevel gear oil.
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Just driving a 1998 V70R :)
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As always, thanks for your advice KlausC.
I'm considering the synthetic switch, and if I do it I'll go for 10W-30 I think.
My battery is brand new and I'm not that worried about not getting my car started. I think your trickle charger advice would be well taken by anyone with an older battery.
Right now, with the temps I described, I'm using 5W-30 dino, and I don't have any oil consumption at all. I don't think I've lost a drop in the last 2000 miles (since I put it in there). I'm going to stick with it until I get to the next change interval (I've been changing at 3000m, so 1000 left).
I laughed when I read your 'ps' - I checked the tranny fluid and found it was looking and smelling very bad. I flushed about 8 litres out of it, and also put in a bottle of Lucas Transmission stuff. Things look much better now. Next year I'll flush it again and use synthetic fluid I think.
I'm going after the bevel gear oil next. I understand you have to buy that oil from the dealer?
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1998 V70 AWD Turbo 180k+
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You will need to "pump" out the old and pump in the new. The dealer sells it by the litre and you should only need one.
Easiest way is with a MightyVac pump. Measure what you take out and replace the same amount. You may want a clothes pin for your nose, the old stuff is gross.
Klaus
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Just driving a 1998 V70R :)
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I was actually planning on installing the drain as per the TSB and described on Bay 13:
http://volvospeed.com/Repair/AWD_bevelgear_diff_service.html
not a good idea?
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1998 V70 AWD Turbo 180k+
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I have a drain plug installed on my car. Now it is easy to flush every 50K miles. If you leave the fill bolt in place while drilling a hole, the bevel gear fluid won't drain as fast when you pull the drill bit out.
Klaus
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Just driving a 1998 V70R :)
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For what i's worth, I've had our '98 since January of 2004 and put about 60K miles on it. I've been using Mobil 1 synthetic (10W-30) and changing oil and filter every 5-7000 miles. I do the oil changes myself, which allows me to spend a little more on the oil. No problems so far.
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I use Mobil 1 myself. As stated earlier I just filled the 2.4 crankcase with 0W-40 Mobil 1 synthetic in preparation for the cold Wisconsin winter.
A good oil filter that has an anti-drainback valve is probably a bit more significant in preventing engine wear than having oil that will flow when its extremely cold. The idea being that no matter how cold or warm it is if you have no oil it doesn't flow, period. However, this doesn't really apply to the Volvo 2.4L on the 850.
The oil filter is installed vertically and is very low on the engine. There really isn't a drainback problem as with horizontally mounted oil filters that are high on the engine (as with other manufacturers).
Keep in mind that there have been some 'scams' going on with Synthetic. Castrol Syntec was marketed as 100% synthetic and it turns out, following a class action lawsuit, that Castrol was merely selling a synthetic 'blend' of dino oil and some synthetic, and laughing all the way to the bank. I used the Castrol in my old '77 Volkswagen Campmobile. Like a lot of people I was frustrated. I don't even want to think how many $50 oil changes I ponied up for over the years. The terms of the settlement were patently ridiculous. In order to get your money back you needed to have receipts from your Syntec purchases. Who keeps receipts from oil purchases?
I use Mobil 1, but I'm aware of the current controversy.
It turns out that some folks in an online oil forum took Mobil 1 and subject it to Gas Chromatograph analysis. The results revealed something sketchy is going on. There turns out to be a significant proportion of petroleum base (group III) as compared to what there should be, namely synthetic stock (PAO-Polyalphaolefin).
Mobil 1 doesn't deny the "mineral oil" content, instead saying that their Mobil 1 contains "high performance fluids including PAO":
https://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/Mineral_Oil_Question.aspx
Again, be wary of extending your drain intervals. Its a tragedy if people are leaving $50 group III oil in their crankcases mistakenly believing that they are using full synthetic due to fraud on the part of Mobil or Castrol.
A high quality dino oil is vastly superior to filthy dirty oil left in the crankcase from miles 3,000 to 5,000 (or even 7,000 and 10,000) as people are now doing.
I would strongly caution folks to rethink their oil paradigm. I've never believed that using a better oil lent itself to extending the drain interval. It seems entirely contrary to the whole point of the drain.
I'm probably going to stop paying $6 a quart for Mobil 1. I can think of better ways to waste $6 than buying synthetic that isn't synthetic.
I'll probably continue to use Mobil Delvac 15w-40 in our Jeeps I guess. At about $12 for 5 quarts I'll let Mobil keep my business there, but its a bit too 'thick' for use in the higher revving Volvo year round.
I've given Mobil the last of my hard earned money for synthetic that isn't, however.
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Great post on your experience waggy.
I have had suspicions exactly to this effect, and the 'horror stories' from my mechanic that I alluded to earlier in the thread support this as well.
I don't mind changing the oil often, esp on these FWD/AWD volvos - it's so easy with the filter right on the bottom of the engine like that. (It was easily twice as much work on my old red block 760 b230ft. ) I think I'll stick with 3000M changes for now - it matches up with the tire rotation schedule anyway, and it gives me an excuse to get under the car to check things out.
As for your jeeps, I could suggest you look into the shell Rotella products, which have a good reputation and seem to be reasonably priced as well. I admittedly don't know how they compare to the Mobil products.
Shame on these manufacturers, esp big guys like Castrol and Mobil, for putting their customers on like this. I suspect if they are doing it then everyone is, except maybe the boutique brands like Lucas and Amsoil - I bet the analysis would show those are true-blue synthetic stock... just a hunch though
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1998 V70 AWD Turbo 180k+
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