I'll try to make this brief, but it's an ugly story any way you cut it. My daughter was attending the excellent BMW Street Survival school a couple of weeks ago. (http://www.streetsurvival.org) After a couple of hours doing the various obstacles (nothing high speed, lots of slalom and quick stops), the oil pressure light comes on. The instructor tells her to pull over and they let the car sit for a couple of hours. The oil level is fine. Upon starting things are fine for about 30 minutes, then the light is back on and some valve noise is evident, so the car is retired for the remainder of the event. We attempt to drive it home, but get only a couple of miles before opting for the AAA tow. I could hear significant noise at that point.

The car is a '95, non-turbo. I've babied that car since the beginning. It now has 126,000 miles on it. Oil & filter have been changed religiously every 3,000 - 4,000 miles. It has had Mobil 1 in it for over the past year (2 oil changes) and for the prior 6-7 years it has had only Castrol semi-synth. The flame trap has been cleaned or renewed at every change.

It goes to the indie shop and they listen to it and are convinced at least one rod bearing is shot. I give them the go ahead to put in a used motor replacement. A donor'96 motor with 88K on it was found and "swapped" out. I just got the car back today and it runs well.

The techs at the shop removed the old oil pan, and that is the true subject of this post. Their first question to me was "Did you change the oil any more frequently than every 10,000 miles?" The amount of sludge and caked on buildup in this motor is unbelievable. You can see for yourself:

http://tinyurl.com/32tfvz

The pictures don't show it well, but you can see small shiny bits of aluminum in the puddle.

The shop's opinion is that the oil sump got clogged with sludge and starved the pump. Where did this sludge come from on a (seemingly) well-maintained engine? Their main theory is my use of the Fumoto Valve. You'll see in the picture how the valve output is actually about 1/2" off the base of the oil pan. They speculate I never got a complete drain during oil changes. I would counter that I always used ramps, giving the Fumoto a slight downward bias. Perhaps not enough.

The other prevalent theory is that the switch to Mobil 1 actually caused the caked oil to flake off the crankcase, due to its high detergent content, which clogged the oil intake tube.

Why did I switch to Mobil 1? For almost the last two years the car has been driven mostly by my daughter back and forth to school, which is about 1.5 miles each way. It would get some highway time on occasion, but not every day as it had been getting for the first 11 years of its life. I thought the Mobil 1 would give superior protection on these short trips, especially in winter.

So my question to you all is, what do you think was going on in this motor?

Regards,
Doug
--
'94 945t; '95 854 base; '05 S80 2.5T

From what you've said it sounds like you bought the car new and have changed the oil yourself every 3-4 k miles. Is that correct? Reason I ask is that I've known about dealers that have faked oil changes. Modern new cars can probably go 50 k miles without any oil or filter change especially if running synthetic oil. Or course it's really not a good idea if you want to keep the car but some folks/dealers just don't seem to have much integrity when it comes to trading in cars. If you do change your own oil the next question is do you drain the oil from a warmed up engine that has sit for a while to allow the upper cylinder oil to drain down? Also how much does that Fumoto Valve restrict the oil draining flow? 98+% of the oil should probably drain out in the first ten seconds. Is the Fumotot Valve flow slow? Using the valve and drain cold oil would probably cause sludge buildup but you really sound like you're on top of things and wouldn't be doing this. I believe I've read where there's an oil filter bypass valve that comes into play when the engine is really cold. If that's stuck no oil would be filtered but even if that's happening the contaminants should be drained out with the old oil. Modern detergent oils should not allow any sludge buildup. Very puzzling situation but it does sound like there was a layer of sluge in the pan and the slaloming around during the test just caused it to come loose.

Looking at my records so I can answer your questions with accuracy.

For the first 3+ years/40,000 miles, the oil & filter was changed every 5,000 miles by the dealer. Funny you should mention faking service. I read in the papers that this dealer was accused by Volvo of faking warranty repairs (during the period I used them) and they almost lost the franchise. The case was settled and they still have the franchise. At that point I stopped using them.

If they were in fact changing oil I'm sure it was plain dino oil.

After that point I did the changes myself, continuing at 5K intervals thru 60,000 miles, then I stepped up the frequency to about every 4,000 miles, and switched to Castrol blended (May 2000).

A Blackstone oil analysis report in 2004 showed everything "normal".

In May 2006 I went to Mobil 1 @ 122,000 miles. There was another full synth change @ 125,000 in January 2007. The car had about 1,500 more miles on that change before the failure hit.

Regarding my oil change technique, yes, I always changed it, on ramps, when warmed up, at least as far as the temp gauge would tell me it was at normal temp.

The Fumoto valve has the optional nipple on the end because I had the delusion that I would slip a hose over it directly to my collection tank, nice and neat. Well I found I didn't need the hose. In hindsight, I would say the flow was restricted, it would be heavy for the first seconds, then trickle for minutes. I would just let it sit until the trickle stopped. The Fumoto valve went on the car in January 2001 @ about 70,000 miles.

After this failure, the mechanic opened the Fumoto valve and said it would not drain at all. However, the dipstick showed the oil level to be full. He had to fish a wire thru the valve to induce a flow.

Hope that helps...

Do you think it's worth the effort/time/aggravation to bring Volvo into this? I figured a car that is 70,000 miles over the warranty period is not something they'd even look at, and I would expect any kind of renumeration, but would they want to analyze the engine to tell me what they think happened? Do they have any engineers that care about this kind of thing?
--
'94 945t; '95 854 base; '05 S80 2.5T

If you have the numbers on your computer, could you post them? That could be interesting!

My Blackstone analysis in 2005 @155k was "perfect".

I would think that something as nasty as the inside of your motor should have shown up on the oil analysis.

-BTC

http://tinyurl.com/32tfvz

I put it up as a jpg with the motor photos. You may need to download and zoom a bit to see the data.

thx

Doug
--
'94 945t; '95 854 base; '05 S80 2.5T

98 V70T5 155,238 miles, 5300 miles on oil, Volvo filter, Mobil-1 10W30 Synthetic.

Aluminum 2 ppm
Chromium 0
Iron 5
Copper 2
Lead 0
Tin 0
Molybdenum 60
Nickel 0
Manganese 0
Silver 0
Titanium 0
Potassium 0
Boron 138
Silicon 10
Sodium 4
Calcium 2189
Magnesium 13
Phosphorus 528
Zinc 669
Barium 0

Viscosity @ 210F 57.7 Flashpoint 380 <0.5% fuel 0% antifreeze 0% water 0.5% insolubles

Or rather, they both look pretty good!

(I was doing almost all highway driving at the time.)

Any possibility of a failed thermostat that stuck partially open/closed, and cooked the oil?

-BTC

'98 V70 T5 5-speed, 172k mi, Bilstein HD, front IPD stabilizer bar, Volvo strut tower brace and skidplate, XC grill, C70 jewel E-Codes, V-1, Lidatek, Mobil-1 since new.

"Being offended by things is the world's big hobby at the moment. It's almost taken over from wearing goatee beards."-Douglas Noel Adams (1952-2001)

If the motor got hot, we didn't know about it as the gauge has been rock steady. In the old 240 Volvos, the temp gauge had a circuit on it that kept the needle in the same spot and did not allow fluctuations to show, unless they were very high or low. Does the 850 have something similar?

The mechanic did replace the cooling fan, saying the motor was burned up. But this only marginally contributes to engine cooling, no? Mainly intended for A/C condenser?

I would agree it looks like it was cooked. I just don't know when that happened, either slowly over time, or maybe on her little track excursion over the course of a couple of hours of that fan not working?
--
'94 945t; '95 854 base; '05 S80 2.5T

"If the motor got hot, we didn't know about it as the gauge has been rock steady. In the old 240 Volvos, the temp gauge had a circuit on it that kept the needle in the same spot and did not allow fluctuations to show, unless they were very high or low. Does the 850 have something similar?"

I think it must. The only times mine has read other than dead center after it was warmed up were when the thermostat failed (open) and when I hit the flying truck tire at 80mph and the engine had no coolant left in it. With primarily short distance driving one might not notice much. I've heard the 8/70 thermostats fail both open and partly closed but that the "open" failure is the "lucky" one.

-BTC

'98 V70 T5 5-speed, 172k mi, Bilstein HD, front IPD stabilizer bar, Volvo strut tower brace and skidplate, XC grill, C70 jewel E-Codes, V-1, Lidatek, Mobil-1 since new.

"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." - Douglas Noel Adams (1952 - 2001)

No oil came out of the drain? That is some thick sludge! No wonder the engine failed, the pickup tubes must have been completely clogged. I am surprised the oil light didn't come on at that time.

I wouldn't bother with the Volvo reps. They have enough problems with the P2 cars and no longer care about these ancient 850's, regardless of the maintenance history.

I am glad your daughter learned a lot at the driving school.

Klaus

Sorry to ramble so much. With regards to writting to Volvo. Based upon their current financial condition, the elapsed time and the non standard drain valve I would think it would not amount to much. Other than maybe providing some self satisfaction which may be worth something in of itself. You'll have to be the judge of that. Funny the low oil pressure light wasn't flashing or maybe your daughter was concentrating too much on not wiping out those pesky slolom cones. Always thought there should also be a audable buzzer associated with the low oil pressure light.

I would almost bet the farm that this dealer was probably faking the oil changes and thats where your problem started. In hindsight the Fumoko Valve probably made it worse and from your description it seems like the valve was getting partially restricted by the goop floating around in your oil pan. A hot oil drain should be pretty much over after a minute. You can hang around for the last quarter cup to come out but it's really not going to make much difference. Maybe there's a lesson to be learned here: with engines that don't have the drain coming out vertical at the bottom of the pan it may be a good idea to do a "mini slalom" before draining the oil just to get things mixed up a little. Especially if you do mostely straightline type driving. Pick your spot well though because you don't want to get pulled over for a suspected DUI. But maybe the cop hasn't heard that oil drain excuse before?

Once I brought my car to the Volvo dealer for an oil change and I got my car back with my case of Mobil-1 sliding around in the back, unopened.

First I started marking the oil filter. Then I decided that it was silly, I just couldn't trust 'em, so I started using an indy Volvo shop.(I don't change my own because the '98 requires a reset tool for the service reminder light, and also requires me to take the time and trouble to safely dispose of the old oil.)

Caveat emptor!

-BTC

'98 V70 T5 5-speed, 172k mi, Bilstein HD, front IPD stabilizer bar, Volvo strut tower brace and skidplate, XC grill, C70 jewel E-Codes, V-1, Lidatek, Mobil-1 since new.

"The two largest English-speaking countries in the world are India (350 million out of 1 billion) and the United States (300 million). By 2025 the number of English–speaking Chinese is likely to exceed the number of native English speakers in the rest of the world."

That little Draper Volvo service light reset tool (69007) sure works great.

Bill,
Shame on you! Bringing your own oil to a dealer for an oil change??? AND expecting him to use it??? If I were that dealer, I would have used your oil and charged you the full amount for a synthetic change - $100+. I have no sympathy :)

Klaus

That was when it was under warranty. Plus the '98 needs the gameboy gizmo to turn off the service light.

Plus they didn't (don't?) offer synthetic oil.

Since I'm not using any oil between changes at 172,000 miles I think they must have done it correctly at least 1/2 of the time.

-BTC

I think there is something else going on. That looks like an engine that ran hot for a long time. Or an engine that saw extended oil change intervals. Really extended.

And I don't think that quick drain valve is a good idea either, it seems unlikely to me that it caused that problem, but it would be a contributer.

I don't agree with those who suggested baybying the engine caused this, there is no logic to support that argument. I'm going to guess that something else was wrong for a long long time that caused elevated oil temperatures, a restriction somewhere maybe? A bad thermo-stat?

In hindsight a good oil flush and another oil change 100 miles later, then switching to synthetic might have saved this engine, but you could never have known that. You can't blame your daughter or yourself, she did everything she could, most teens (mine included) would ahve driven it home.

I know that my 850 turbo with 120,00+ miles doesn't look like that inside. But I've seen an air cooled Porsche that had that kind of sludge at 150,000 miles.

I guess we'll never know. Unless you ship it to CSI.

Now that you have a replacement, I recommend using AutoRx, or at least a can of a good engine flush (AMSOIL or BG come to mind). If there is any sludge in there, you want to get it out.

Doubtful the Mobil 1 would have caused any chunks to come off, enough to clog the oil pickup filter. Most likely it was done well before.

Have you personally used Auto-Rx or other flushes, in a Volvo white motor?
--
'94 945t; '95 854 base; '05 S80 2.5T

I have not used AutoRx in anything myself, but have read about it and talked with folks who have used it. I have seen no averse reports. I have used AMSOIL engine flush in Saabs and Volvos (to include a 96 850 turbo).

I used Auto-RX in my 97 960 and it cleaned up the motor a lot. I bought the car with 66K and did the cleaning at 70K. The camshaft and valve train was coated with a thick dark brown varnish / mild sludge. Once the rinse phase was over the camshaft and valve train was as bright as a new penny. The car definitely perked up a lot and the idle smoothed out. I got all the service records when I bought it in Feb 05 and the OCI's were at 5K with 10W30 Dino oil. After the cleaning I switched it over to Mobil 1 10W30.

I was going to sign up my 19 year old daughter this summer. How did your daughter like the school? Did she learn anything? Was she impressed?

I am hesitant because of the Volvo FWD verses the BMW RWD and the different techniques required for the cars. Are the BMW nuts able to help hone FWD skills?

Thanks,

Klaus

I can not say enough good things about the experience (other than she blew the motor!).

The change in her entire driving approach changed over the course of one day. I worked the track as a cone-resetter, so I got to see all the kids come through multiple times. The school is an incredible deal: for $60 she got over 5 hours of driving time with an instructor at her side (seemed to be BMW club members) at all times; 2 hours of classroom instruction/lecture; lunch (for parents too).

After her car was retired, the instructor offered to have her complete the day in his M3, but being a manual, she had to turn that down. She drove the remainder of the day in another instructor's 2006 Maxima because his student didn't show up.

There were all sorts of cars in the class (you drive your own), including some pickup trucks. I was embarrassed because the 850 was the only DNF. But the scares of the day always came from the girl driving the RAV4: so many times she almost had it on 3 wheels and potential to roll over.

At the end of the day the student takes their parent out on the course to demostrate what they learned. So she took me in the Maxima. All I can say is wow. She had complete command of the vehicle in a manner I would have never expected from her. I have a You Tube video of 2 of the manoeuvers, slalom on turn and high speed lane change, w/object avoidance.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=x5QG74uCdRY

If you can get your kid into this, do it. I'd like to do it myself!

--
'94 945t; '95 854 base; '05 S80 2.5T

I wonder what was in the car for the first 3-4 years before the Castrol semi-synthetic?

This is interesting because I'm kinda doing the same thing -- I've gone from marathon commuting to telecommuting, aometimes the car goes a month between gas fills. Anyway, I'd like to see 200k before the motor blows up. I guess I should shorten the oil change interval now.

-BTC

'98 V70 T5 5-speed, 172k mi, Bilstein HD, front IPD stabilizer bar, Volvo strut tower brace and skidplate, XC grill, C70 jewel E-Codes, V-1, Lidatek, Mobil-1 since new.

"The two largest English-speaking countries in the world are India (350 million out of 1 billion) and the United States (300 million). By 2025 the number of English–speaking Chinese is likely to exceed the number of native English speakers in the rest of the world."

The first 4 years the car was dealer maintained. I want to say they used Valvoline, but am not certain.

It has never had a t-stat problem, and the one in there was less than 2 years old. But...... the shop also found the condenser fan motor was burned up, so that was replaced with the engine. They mentioned it as a possible contributing factor, but my understanding is that fan does not really contribute to engine cooling but more for A/C.
--
'94 945t; '95 854 base; '05 S80 2.5T

"Semi-synthetic oils (also called 'synthetic blends') are blends of mineral oil with no more than 30% synthetic oil".

I'd have to think the Valvoline and Castrol would carbonize at lower temperatures than the Mobil-1 ... and that chunk on the oil pump screen looks like carbon. Nevertheless, I thought that dino-juice was considered an acceptable lubricant by Volvo since they definitely did not encourage the use of synthetics when I still used the dealer, since I always needed to bring my own.

Was the car in your hands when the dealer did the service, and if not, was the service documented?

There are a couple of similar series of photos over at the BMW board; the best guess was that lessees skipped one or two of the extended oil changes (!). In any case, those are some scary photos.

-BTC

'98 V70 T5 5-speed, 172k mi, Bilstein HD, front IPD stabilizer bar, Volvo strut tower brace and skidplate, XC grill, C70 jewel E-Codes, V-1, Lidatek, Mobil-1 since new.

"The two largest English-speaking countries in the world are India (350 million out of 1 billion) and the United States (300 million). By 2025 the number of English–speaking Chinese is likely to exceed the number of native English speakers in the rest of the world."

NMI

Doug,
The 5 cylinder white engines are made to run, and run hard. You didn't hurt it by using the Fumoto Valve or Mobile 1. The engine died from lack of exercise.

The oil hardly moves at 1500rpm, the cylinder walls get a little spray and harden from the heat. The low rpms do not allow the crankshaft to splash oil and keep it all mixed up. That causes sludge. Of course, if you would have changed the oil at 10K mile intervals, the demise would have come sooner.

My daughter has the 854T, and when she was driving to school I told her to drive in 1st or second gear. The school is only 2 miles from our house and the speed limit is 30mph. The use of "L" let the engine do all of the braking and taught my daughter how to drive using the gas pedal. Plus, I was assured that the engine would get warm and bathed in oil. The only downside was getting 12mpg! Not bad considering...

The next time you are going 30 or 40mph, check the rpms and then down shift and have some fun. Your engine will like it!

Klaus

As I've stated in previous post, my '96 850 (base sedan) is usually in storage during the long winters we have in Vermont. I do baby the car cosmetically, but when I drive it on the highway (which is a lot) in summers I really love to open up the engine- there is nothing like hearing that motor sing at rpms over 3500! As Klaus said, the 5-cylinders will wear out very quickly if they are not exercised probably. They are high-performance engines that love to be revved, unlike the B230Fs of the 240s of yesteryear. You were also doing the right thing in using Mobil 1 synthetic oil, which is the same brand I use.