I drive the 1996 850 and my wife drives a 2003 Honda Accord. I work on the 850 and am not allowed to touch the Accord. Only the "professional" dealer tech is allowed to touch my wife's car. With this in mind, consider the following maintenance practice.

The "professional" dealer tech just changed the brake fluid on a recent service appointment. (The car is 4 years old and has 46,000 mile on it.) This procedure involved inspecting the fluid in the master cylinder to see if it "looked okay", evacuating only the fluid in the master cylinder and topping it off with new fluid. The next service is at 60,000 miles or in another year. The fluid has not been changed previously.

According to my readings and personal practice (on the Volvo) a brake fluid change involves changing fluid and purging all brake lines at three years or 30,000 miles. I know that brake fluid absorbs moisture and old fluid can corode your system and degrade your seals not to mention reduce the boiling point of brake fluid (Honda uses DOT 3)during hard and continuous braking.

My wife says the "professional" dealer tech must know best. I think this brake fluid change "light" is a misguided shortcut. Has the traditional brake fluid change gone the way of the 3,000 mile oil change?

Who is right on this one? Has any one out there had a negative result due to a similar brake fluid change?

Dan

Thanks very much for your input. I will pursue this with the Honda dealer service department.

Dan

The cautious approach definitely is to flush and replace the brake fluid on a regular interval, maybe 2 years, maybe 3. All automotive engineers know that. My 1981 BMW 320i owner's manual states brake fluid must be changed annually, and that is what I do. The brakes have never been any trouble at all. My 2002 530i recommends a 2-yr interval. On my wife's 1999 V70, we change the brake fluid every 2 years.

As for the Honda, sadly, the recommendations may have been watered down to accommodate the typical American buyer. It's part of the marketing game of reducing ownership cost, at least for the first owner. But after 7 or 8 years, the car faces major repairs becasue the preventative work was neglected. (Ever hear of "lifetime" automatic transmission fluid?)

Honda is only using DOT3? Interesting, even my 1981 BMW specifies DOT4.

I’ll keep my opinions about brake fluid changes to myself, but comment on lifetime fluids.

The tribologists at the auto companies would love to make the factory fill last the life of the vehicle, the oil companies will not… I can’t comment on the lawyers and dealers of automakers, but I’d wager a guess that they get a say in it too. If the automaker says lifetime is good, I’ll stick to it within the prescribed lifetime of the vehicle until I hear otherwise. If nothing else, it’s good practice environmentally. What do you do with all that used brake fluid?

Good point. You are absolutely right that used car chemicals are a problem; they have to recycled or disposed safely. That certainly is a drawback. I think the long-term issue comes down to whether the regular change of fluids will let you keep the car longer. Then you are balancing the waste generated by the used chemicals versus the waste of an entire car whose useful life is over. Could the car's functional life been prolonged for several more years with meticulous maintenance? Typically, I think the answer is yes. Then, you not only save on disposing of the plastic and steel in the old car, but also save on the mining of new raw materials, fumes from the paint, and the energy used to make the new vehicle. Another benefit to meticulous maintenance is that you reduce the probability of component failure at some inconvenient or dangerous time.

Your point of the prescbibed lifetime is an interesting one. But what is "lifetime?" If it is 10 years, then the factory-fill transmission fluid might be all right (sometimes). But new cars are so well machined and protected from corrosion, I think they should last much longer than that. So, by neglecting to do maintenance, what you are really doing is inflicting the next owner with the burden of having to catch up with undone care. Often the secondary owner is not that well off, so another burden on his life....

Good points on waste of fluids/etc. versus waste of a car that could last longer. I think in the end it comes down to how lazy/cheap one is with maintenance. Me, I am both cheap and lazy.

New cars (good ones anyways) are much better made and made from better materials. It's almost scary for a Volvo driver who never sells a car, but rather keeps driving it until it dies. At least with a 240 you could count on it eventually rusting away to the point where it's easier to replace than fix. Now that they don't rust I could be faced with driving this 850 for a long long time (could be worse I suppose).

--Will

This thread reminded me to do this maintenace. Question, for a DIY one person team who sells a product that will allow me to do this by myself ? The last time I did it it was me up on the lift pumping the brakes while a friend was back on the brake line. Ineed something simple and universal if anyone knows of one.

Thanks

Lee
95 850 5 spd 206,000 Miles w original A/C

Check on Ebay for 1-Way Brake Bleeder Hose. I used one of these and it made bleeding the brakes a 1 man job. Good Luck - Phil
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'98 N/A S70 190,000Klm

I understand Toyota uses DOT 3 also and both Honda and Toyota do not advise substituting DOT 4 for DOT 3 in the brake systems. It would seem to me that DOT 4 (with a higher boiling point) would be superior.

Honda is very proprietery about the strict use of Honda fluids (coolant,atf and brake fluid) according to Honda service manuals. I have read on-line postings of Honda disallowing warranty claims on transmission failures if Honda ATF fluid was not used in a vehicle. Accordingly, non-synthetic Honda fluids seem to cost as much or more than tried and true synthetics.

Dan

1 - many brands of car specify a complete brake fluid change at intervals - especially if you have ABS.

2 - I bought a used Acura which was totally dealer-maintained before it got to my hands (I had all receipts). The brake fluid may or may not have ever actually been changed. Other listed services had clearly not been performed. The brake fluid was contaminated (visibly). I replaced master cylinder and 3 of the 4 wheel cylinders as well as proportioning valve in an attempt to get this car to brake evenly. Very frustrating and expensive.

I went back to the Honda Dealer and specified I wanted the brake fluid flushed out and new fluid added. They agreed and it is done.

I happend to take a look at their service menu for the Accord V-6 and noticed impressive list of services at certain mileages. I found that "replacing" brake fluid, transmission fluid (atf,or antifreeze/coolant does not mean flush and refill. It means examine and top off. In a menu of "additional services" coolant system flush, brake fluid flush and atf flush services,etc. are offered at the customers option for an additional charge beyond the regular service interval check ups.

I will have to be pro-active in specifically requesting the "necessary" (im my opinion) additional services or potential expensive repair problems may lurk in the future. Many new car dealer customers howl and the high cost of dealer maintenance which I presume dealers have responded to by employing "maintenance light" or "eyeball and replace fluid" approaches. This is okay if you trade your car every three or 4 years (when the warrraty expires) but not okay if you hold a vehicle as I do. I will view the dealers "certified pre-owned warranty-dealer maintained" statement with a little more skepticism in the future.

Dan

You are right...cutting corners and charging for something that isn't done...that's bogus. Print out some stuff from the web regarding flushing the brake fluid and show your wife. After that, go to bat for her and complain to the dealer's service manager. A flush is a flush is a flush, not a top-off or an inspection.
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1998 S70 T5 Emarald Green Metallic (125K), 2004 V70 2.5T Ruby Red (45K), Previous Owner of Black '94 850 Turbo Wagon (Sold at 140K and miss her). My cars have been running so well lately they've got me worried.

Explain to your wife that brake bluid does not flow through the system, like oil and antifreeze. The fliud in the resevoir is there just in case there is a minor leak. All of the work is done close to the caliper, and that dirty stuff does not float to the top.
Flushing the brake fluid means flushing the system, not skimming off the top of the master cylinder. I would complain to Honda for being charged for a flush when that never happened. Talk to the service manager and escalate it quickly to the regional people at Honda. When your brakes fail, you wife will be in trouble.

Klaus
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1975 164 w/174,800mi (Sold) 1995 850T w/91,000mi, 1998 V70R w/129,000mi

The claim of lifetime fluid is a misnomer....Nothing lasts forever. I'd be inclined to change brake fluid every two years. I live in the south and moisture is a killer. So I take the addage of "better to be safe" in all these years it's never failed me yet. I'd dispose of the fluid in the responsible manner. If your like some of us stick to regular maintance as it will save you many $$ over the years. That's my two cents worth.

89 GL ,96 850 GLT wagon , 2007 Infiniti G-35

You are right, Dan.
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96 850T, Bilstein HD, IPD swaybars-HD endlinks