Gang -

OK, I'll apologize up front if this should be in "Opinions" but lots of what I saw there was not Volvo (or even car) related.

I was going to write Volvo (not that it would do any good) to tell them what I think of their "no paper service manual" policy. And then I started to think about what would happen 10 years or so down the road. I would guess that most of us use the dealer while under warranty but that after that expires we either do our own work or have an independent garage take over much of the work. Since there has been no printed service literature available since 1999 a lot more cars will have no other choice than going to the dealer for much more than routine oil changes, exhaust and suspension work.

I'm not sure if that was Volvo's master plan or not. But currently it takes about 3 weeks for me to get an appointment at the dealer. As time goes on it seems to me that older and older cars will be having to continue going to the dealer and the backlogs will get even greater.

And will the owner of a 10 year old car want to be paying dealer labor rates? And if they get stuck doing this (because there is no other option) when it comes time to buy another car will they buy one which their independent garage can't work on? I doubt it.

Hey, thanks for listening - time for my medications!

Bob

"Since there has been no printed service literature available since 1999 a lot more cars will have no other choice than going to the dealer for much more than routine oil changes, exhaust and suspension work"

Not at all true. Any clown with a wrench can do things like that to ANY car, no matter how new or old and if they can't, they need to find another job. The only real issues with newer cars, ALL newer cars (NOT just Volvo btw) is that for more technical issues that require electrically related diagnostics for example, then yes, a dealer will be the most likely place to go and especially if software DLs are required.

Like all new car manufacturers, Volvo (Ford) doesn't want you to keep your older car for long, they want things to fail eventually by design (planned) so that you're annoyed enough to trade it in for another NEW car. That's how they make money. It's a big gamble if the annoyances aren't so bad that you then opt to buy a different brand of car however and lately, I think Volvo's losing on that one as the newer Volvos have too many costly problems compared to older Volvos.

I agree...and old (and not so old any more) used cars continue to pile up along country roads around here (I live in Tenn.). It's a real eye sore. What do current day auto makers really think about the ecology.
--
1998 S70 T5 Emarald Green Metallic, 2004 V70 2.5T Ruby Red, Previous Owner of Black '94 850 Turbo Wagon. My cars have been running so well lately they've got me worried.

"What do current day auto makers really think about the ecology"

Being a guy who's worked in new car dealers for over 26 yrs now, I can assure you that new car manufacturers do not care what happens to their cars once sold, the warranty expires. All they want to do is sell you new cars, they're not ever concerned about their older cars sold in previous years.
The used car market in my area (and I think most places) is presently hot being that new cars are so costly. Even if the cars are wrecks, the junk yards get them and sell them for parts.
Around here, if they're too and nasty to be recycled for parts, they're scrapped.

I too have wondered where we are heading.

A 140 or 240 series Volvo could be worked on by an ernest DIYer. They were indestructible in some respects. We still see many on the roads and many people on this forum wish they were still available in a recent model year.

However, it is said that older cars are tremendously worse for the environment than newer cars. First the technology improves and makes the new cars better. Then the older cars get worse with age, owners don't maintain the cars (a tremendous percentage of cars on the road have their check engine light on), wear naturally allows less effecient operation, oil and coolant leaks pollutes the ground water. So there are some efforts to get older cars off the road.

Then we have the newer cars with their expensive sophistication, $1000 ETM's, $1200 Evaporators, $1800 bevel gears and expensive computerized diagnostic equipment and as you mention, no service materials that a individual owner can afford. Then there is the work that only the dealer can do, no matter how dedicated an indie shop is it cannot do the work. Take a failed ETM that leaves you stranded. 1) Have the car towed to you indie mechanic or your own driveway. 2) Order the new ETM and get it installed. 3) Have the car towed again to the dealer because the new ETM will not work until software is downloaded via sattelite at a Volvo dealership.

At some point all cars become more trouble to keep on the road than they are worth. Old Volvos would often go down through the economic classes from the original buyer to the DIYer that can take a $500 240 and get another 10 years out of it. But I believe that the new cars have to be depreciated faster because of the tremendous cost of trying to keep them on the road. The day is coming when these cars will be "throw away" goods like most of what we buy today. A six or seven year old car with 150,000 miles on it will be worth next to nothing because of the expense to maintain it. Then what will happen to these cars. Maybe the best value for these cars will be to recycle, because there will be 3000#'s of some pretty good stuff. It seems like such a waste.

What is the best for the planet, a car that lasts over 20 years, or a "throw away" model that is only good until the warranty runs out?

It's hard to know where we are heading, but I'd like to offer my 2 cents worth.
(My apologies if you find this too long.)

At first, I was really put off by the software driven approach with the P2 and newer Volvos. I wondered what the point was. Having done some reading and thinking, I've realized that this approach allows for a lot less wiring throughout the car, and a lot more flexibility in design and function, and is not all bad. One example - the electronic throttle system is a marvel of simplicity - the throttle pedal with a position sensor, the infamous ETM istself, and the mass airflow sensor. Cruise control is handled by the ECM talking to the ETM - no cables, vacuum connection, etc. Another example - I don't hear about real electrical problems - burned out bulbs and some defective lock actuators, but not wiring issues. Is the simplicity already providing a benefit? (Having said this, I cannot comprehend why the replacement of parts requires software downloads. Why isn't this stuff "plug and play"? Even a new Windows operating system includes drivers for at least a hundred different printers!)

Electronic and digital technology are mysterious to most of us, but there are people out there who understand this stuff very well. The aftermarket is still catching up. ECMs and other modules are easy to repair for those who understand how, but we need aftermarket vendors who can repair and reprogram, and do for other parts what Vic Rocha is doing for ABS modules. (If Magneti Marelli designed the ETMs so that the potentiometers could be replaced for 50 bucks, nobody would be complaining.) Programming is trickier - this requires an in-depth knowledge of operating parameters - but perhaps aftermarket software packages will someday be available and we will dump our proprietary systems for an automotive version of Linux.

Of course, Volvo is not the only company with software issues - it was simply the pioneer with this approach back in 1999. However, the company needs to come clean and correct bugs in defective software without charging the customer. Microsoft (that big, evil computer company) provides Windows fixes for free without even confirming that you didn't pirate the software!

Despite my complaints, Volvo is improving software download and diagnostics access. VIDAS has been replaced by VIDA, a Windows-based online system that a dedicated Volvo independent can now afford, provided enough late model cars are being serviced. It requires a good computer in the shop, hardware to connect to the car, and up to $7000 per year for a subscription; a lot cheaper than the old satellite-based system. It seems to me that even very dedicated DIY'er could subscribe; it's about $100 for three days' worth. So it's not dealer-only, just more costly than the average owner or small shop can afford.

Albert,
Nice reply to this post! I didn't realize that VIDA was non-satelite based and could possibly be bought by an independent. Seems the way to go with this is for a group of Volvo owners who live in close proximity to one another buy this and the subscription, forming a sort of "VIDA Club." This would be cost effective for all. Say that in a metropolitan area, there are 100 P2 owners; the $7000 to buy it would quickly decrease to $70 a person for a year. When service is needed, an announcement could be sent out for once during a certain month, once a certain week, or whenever. Those who come in for software downloads can then split the cost of the $100 for the subscription for those 3 days (for instance, have the service over a weekend with Monday being the last of the 3 days for those who have the flexibility in their schedules to wait until then). This would be a great service and well worth the effort and would take the controls away from the dealer and place them back into the hands of the DIY owners, where it should have been to begin with...just my opinion, but may be worth thinking about.

Even if there were 50 owners willing to do this in a certain place, that would only be $140 for the year plus the part of the subscription they would be sharing with others. If there is an emergency and someone needs a software download at an unscheduled time, they may have to pay the $100 on their own, or maybe find one or two other people who would like software downloads within the 3 day period that he/she would be doing theirs and split the cost this way. This would still be much cheaper than having the dealer do the downloads, not to mention the other things that could possibly go wrong at the dealer, or the unecessary repairs they may do, or "encourage" you to have done (been my experience over the years, and has been very costly- many times not solving problems). Ideally, an independent garage would be the place for this...someone who may not be able to afford the software on their own, but could manage everything and keep track of the accounting for the "club," etc. Even if this person charges a slight over-head it would still be worth it.

One thing not mentioned here and is an after-thought: How much is the scan tool that connects to VIDA? This would have to be considered in the cost above, but I believe this would be a one time cost for everyone and still would be worth it.
--
1998 S70 T5 Emarald Green Metallic, 2004 V70 2.5T Ruby Red, Previous Owner of Black '94 850 Turbo Wagon. My cars have been running so well lately they've got me worried.

"How much is the scan tool that connects to VIDA?"

The VCT 2000 which is what Volvo dealers use to go between the PC and car, has the OBD2 plug costs the dealer ~$2,000 US.

A subscription to VIDA costs a dealer about $600 per year, per PC not including whatever they'd charge an individual to purchase the SW itself.

Volvo has made all this so costly that few independants would ever consider buying it. No small shop or individual would do that, no real need.

If you think about it, unless your car is an electronic nightmare like the '99 S80 (for example) which has many issues often, you're still probably not going to ever spend that much money taking your newer Volvo to a dealer when VIDA is required.
Even IF your car was a '99 S80 and you had VIDA plus all the electronics at home, could YOU or anyone else w/o modern day Volvo training, experience still fix the car? Vadis and VIDA is not so great that it tells the user exactly what's required to fix the car. That still usually takes further diagnostics and mostly, experience.

I found the information about subscription pricing at the following location. Scroll down and click on the relevant package near the bottom of the page.

https://www.volvotechinfo.com/index.cfm?event=info.subscriptions.main

You can look around for yourself to see what is offered. Follow this link for more information about the VIDA platform, which is provided by an independent company.

http://www.enigma.com/e/customers/volvo.cfm

I read somewhere else that Volvo is targeting this at 3,000 dealers and 15,000 independents worldwide, so Volvo obviously recognizes that there is money to be made in selling subscriptions and parts (via dealers) to independents.

At only $50 for each diagnostic procedure, an independent could recover costs after servicing a couple of hundred P2 cars per year; a two bay garage couldn't do it, but a larger independent could.

Please note that each software download is extra cost; a part number is assigned to each download, and the VIN of the recipient car is recorded. The VIDA system will, at least in theory, know the software status of every car.